qwazse

OGE, the point is that God (now matter how generally we define it) is a distinctly human construct. The boy's puppy isn't concerned about it at all. So, he's come to the conclusion that he doesn't need to be either. We want to show him that other people think differently. Now we can argue 'till we're blue in the face about that construct coming from external or internal sources -- wether it's personal or impersonal. (I tend to believe, after these few years of living, that it's external and quite personal. Some of my psychologist colleagues say otherwise.) So, to rephrase Kudu (a foolish thing to do indeed), say to the boy "come hike with us". On the hike, point out the few things that really amaze you. At the end of the day, explain (in a couple of scentences) why the things your saw give you a higher regard for the God you worship. Give the boys a chance to chime in -- there may be a boy who's particularly good at that sort of thing. Sure, maybe quoting Spinoza would be the scholarly thing to do. I don't think it's essential. As the boy grows he may want to know why nearly all of humanity buys into this higher power thing, but for now he's focused on "what's in it for me?" The out-of-doors is the best tool for dulling narcissim that I have ever seen. Lather - rinse - repeat. More outings, less talk. MattR - for some questions, there's no point in answering with words.

While we're talking $$'s here, if you think the price for you to go is prohibitive, you may want to consider staying at home and sponsoring a young man or woman to serve as staff or adult leaders. (I knew two who went last year, one as an ASM and the other as a climbing instructor, they did awesome work and had a great time.) Jambo fees are half for 16 to 25 year old volunteers, but even that can be prohibitive for a college kid or graduate student. You were just toying with going yourself. Maybe you know a young person who would be a great volunteer for an event like this. He or she might do you the favor of checking in on your son every now and then. All they might need is a little encouragement on the financial end. And he or she would be less likely to load their uni with knots making them look like 3rd world dictators!

Your expenses as an essential leader may be considered a charitable contribution. This includes fees, travel required to get to the event, and uniforms that are expressely purposed for the organization. Your kid's expensenses are not. A contribution you make to your chartered organization so that other kids can go to the event may be. Depends on the nature of your chartered organization and how they account for stuff.

I think with younger kids you want to start with the dictionary definition. I could care less if your statement of faith matches mine, if you are generally disrespectful at anyone's religion (or lack thereof), that needs to change. If the kid can handle "respecting the religion of others" for now (e.g., not being disruptive in church if he has to go, not teasing his friends or enemies over matters of faith), that's a start for Tenderfoot. You do need to inform the parents about the discussion, and the expectation in scouting is that as the boy matures his opinion will grow (however nebulous) towards respecting a deity. And it needs to be clear that advancement to Eagle depends on him being able to describe that in his own terms.

I'm now at the fish-or-cut-bait point of stepping in and disallowing some of the appointments or not. Fish. (I think. If by that you're meaning work with the boys appointed.) In a month have the SPL pull up any lines that aren't "hitting." Recently the SM and I had to admit to the committee "The popular boy - not the best leader - got elected SPL. As much as we don't like it, we'll deal with it." It was a risk because some parents of younger scouts were in the room. We had already lost a few boys because parents didn't appreciate our willingness to let this youth have the reigns. (They formed a new troop, so we didn't feel all that bad about it.) But, the parents in the room got that some day it may be their boy about whom everyone is having doubts. Like Stosh said, the more mature boys will find ways to serve. For example, one boy planned our spring backpacking trip for us -- including any necessary training and equipment procurement. No instructor's patch required. But like us, you or a tactful ASM will probably want to have a sit-down with parents to explain the challenges ahead.

I love pulling the "not my job card" on upset absentee leaders! SP's right. I know folks whose Pack treasuries "disappeared". A little wisdom and accountability is in order. Point is, you want to encourage the old guard to stick around, so thank them for jumping on this because even if the kids don't appreciate it, it's good to know that responsible people care about these boys $$'s! Encourage them that even though it may take a little more of their time, helping train these young parents will pay off in the long run.

Twocub, It sounds like you have a big enough troop, so there are several ways you can endure this "bump" in the road. Obviously, get the PLC running ASAP. Whoever misses the first one (without calling in with a reasonable excuse in advance), you ask the SPL to find his replacement. Seriously, first part of the meeting: roll call. SPL says who's missing, you ask why, he doesn't know, you say no worries, we'll announce at the next meeting that the position is open. If the boy shows up late, it's up to you how much grace you should dispense. Obviously, you can have the kid who got bumped make a case for why he should be reappointed. The point is, that you want a young SPL to deal with any poor choices early in his career, and you don't want anyone coasting through their positions of responsibility. Talk to a couple older boys. There may be more to this than meets the eye. The older scouts may be caught up in other activities and may have asked to be passed over. They might sincerly feel that their patrols will be better if, instead of being "the guy", they set an example of following younger PL's. Try not to let on that you're concerned about the situation, but try to get their opinion. Make it clear that you still want this troop to work for them! There are plenty roles for older boys in this kind of situation. Maybe a couple could organize an Introduction to Leadership Skills for Troops for the new PLC. Some others might offer themselves as specialty instructors or activity coordinators. Then you can tell the PLC, "Life scouts Joe and Bob are availble weekend x to give you guys ILST, Mark's learned to do some cool things at the autobody shop, and Eagle scout William has some connections at the sportsman's club, etc ... you want to give them a call?" That way everybody knows that regardless of what's on your sleave, there's plenty of leading to do. I'm not a fan of older boys forming their venture patrol in this situation. But if they have a particular goal in mind (e.g. hike 100 miles this year), it may be the right time for it.

Now might be a good time to call/E-mail your council (which I think may be mine, too) get in touch with their Jamboree chairperson, and let them know you are anxious to help budget this for your son and tell them what price would be a "deal breaker" for you. My kids have voiced no interest in Jambo, so I've never weighed in with anyone who might be planning the trip. Note that in general, the adults only go to Jambo as scoutmasters or assistants in their council contingent or as Jamboree staff. The practical upshot is that you won't cross paths with your son too much. So the choice for you may boil down to volunteer service or family vaction. Not telling you what you should decide, just sayin that you should spell it out with your spouse so the both of you can sort out what's really important.

Last fall, one of my youth arranged for Kielbasa foil packs on a Weber gas grill. They turned out really well. Not something you can pack in a long ways, but plenty good if you can bring a car in.

I think the Baby Boomers with connections stretched that upper limit to include the likes of me so they could look less outdated than they really were! I might suggest that you see who on your committee might have a camp or a boat where your SM can get a weekend with just the adults. If you got a tough group of kids, he probably could use some time to talk comfortably about 'em so that everyone is on the same page! Even if you don't have anything better than what you all are doing to offer in terms of advice, it might be worth it to get a good laugh out of your predicament! Who knows? Another 6 years and that boy might be sitting around your adult campfire giving you his perspective!

A bottle of 200 proof is cheaper and has more flexible uses. But seriously, BD, you have a right to sit a boy down with his mom and say "you have a problem, it is ..., you need to fix it, here's how to start [hand out diversion brochures] ... if you make the effort to do this, it will help me to work with you to be a better scout ... if you want to do this with your patrol, I'll see what we can do to help ... if you only want to do this with your mom and maybe your little brother, that's fine too. I will do my best to support you and make it happen. We'll talk about how it works out at your next scoutmaster conference." You can tell your committee that ... a. you strongly suggested -- not required. b. you offered the patrol method. c. you gave the family an opportunity they may have otherwise missed. d. you will enforce discipline on activities according to the safety needs of all boys. That will include having your best adult "shadow" any boy with a proclivity to light fires in all the wrong places by all the wrong means, and arranging a "drive of shame" home on the first infarction. e. you expect practical help from the committee (e.g. gas for the mom if she needs to drive her son, etc ...). If this boy is giving you that "hair on the back of the neck" kind of feeling, this is an opportunity to spare a household a world of grief (trust me, this isn't a camping-exclusive behavior), and not singling out the boy may cause this household to miss that opportunity. BTW - "positive learning experience" is a long term goal. Hopefully in a few years rumor of a few of those from your attempts so far will come back to you!

As there is no love lost between me and EDGE, I'll spare you any biased comments I may have on that part of the WB experience. Since our groups aced TGOL (partly because me and a guy from another patrol had studied game theory and quickly identified the textbook example for what it was), no complaints there. Others: not so much. Still, that wasn't divisive within patrols. Although effectively car camping, our patrols acted as such the second weekend, and later in the evening, we hiked around to other patrols seeing if anybody wanted some leftover tiramisu. Plus, with cub-moms in our patrol, my cook gear was never cleaner! The only travesty was being stuck inside on the most beautiful day of autumn watching films! I don't know about our patrol, but I was feeling pretty stormy!!!!

I get a recurring itch to take my crew back to the Sods! We have a deep affection for the place, but she doesn't always return it with warmth, still waters, and low winds. October is the next opening on our schedule, but I have one youth whose circulation won't permit her to endure long hours in the cold. So, we may be stuck waiting until late April or May. All that to say: have your boys come up with a plans B, C, and D. B and C should be alternative hike plans in case the road is closed to the insertion point for your plan A. D is what you will to do if you call the Potomac Ranger's station and they advise against traversing the Sods, period. Last time we went, we had to fall back on plan C. If you or your boys use Facebook, check the Dolly Sods group (http://www.facebook.com/groups/44192266956/ One of the pics includes my crew "prepared as usual" [i say, eyes rolling]). They have some useful links, and are pretty quick to respond to questions. They should read all of the posts thoroughly. It's a good way for your troop to get into the planning.

Advancement is like poker: make sure you're playing with a full deck. You never know when you'll have to back up the hand you lay down.

BDPT00 And by the way, what "style" of cooking do you think Venturers will use? I think they detest the word "patrol." Well, I've been to enough gatherings to learn that there are "cabin", "tent", "hammock", and "maybe a tarp, when the rain gets heavy" venturers. Needless to stay, cooking style varies with each type. Because my crew has not expressed interest in Jambo or the national youth cabinet, I have avoided stepping in the ring to advise Summit's set-up. Maybe someone more involved will be able to give us a hint as to what they expect would happen. You are right about "patrol"! I think the concept is okay with them on one level, but at that age they are trying to widen their social circles, so they don't want to feel "stuck" in an adult-fabricated structure (even if their little cliques are no great shakes)! So ... I pull the old bait-and-switch with my crew. Since we hike in wilderness recreation areas, we traverse ground in "contingents" no greater than 10 (including the requisite two adults -- four if co-ed -- who I personally train ahead of time to act as observers barring imminent danger). As such, they must form their contingents months in advance and come up with hike plans, tour permits, supplies etc... They are free, but not obligated, to coordinate with the other contingents. The adults may help with the shopping or serving the youth as requested -- but they are not to veto or otherwise question the youth's menu. (I am generally extremely accommodating to my female adult leaders, but when they cross that line into "mom territory", they hear from me.) The only practical difference between "contingents" vs. "patrols" is that the former are more ad-hoc and driven by the activity -- not the age or rank of the youth. And honestly, I've never eaten better than when with a co-ed contingent who has been given full reign over the menu. Your mileage will vary!(This message has been edited by qwazse)

No offense to you all who have to fix cracks in walls etc ... but the quake was a pretty innocous event. We lost four Pittsburghers in flash floods last weekend on a stretch of road that was supposed to have excellent drainage. It's a relief to have one disaster that's more novelty than threat. The interesting thing was how incredulous my co-workers were when I told them we probably just felt an earthquake. I replied, "Well, if that wasn't a quake we just felt, we have a lot to worry about. Because whatever else could make the building shake like that is not gonna be good." Fortunately while I was asking some folks outside if they felt anything (they hadn't), one of them got a call from a relative asking if she felt "that." Then a check of earthquakes.usgs.gov, cleared the air. Funny, how we Easterners have to get it from the internet before we'll believe it. Maybe if we watched our cockroaches more closely ... Looks like 50-50 odds of the East Coast getting nailed with Irene. The Abacos (where Seabase operates) is the eye right now.

My daughter and her friend (one ex- the other current VOA officers) taught ILSC (same as above except for crews). They were less enthused about how things looked on paper. While my daughter was reviewing the syllabus, she said "where was this when I was trying to be crew president?" Advisor-dad: "Um, you know that course I was trying to get you all to take but everyone said they had no time for?" Daughter: "Oh, I wouldn't want to take a course, I just wish someone would have given this to me to read." Advisor-dad: [Pounds head against wall.] Fortunately, their students were gung-ho and the training day went quite well. I sat in on a couple of sessions, and they interacted with the course positively. (On their break, I called it "Woodbadge lite," which got them asking about adult leadership training. It helped them to know that we all come back for this sort of thing -- even if no wood is actually harmed in the process.) I expect most boys to respond favorably to ILST. If they are from an active troop, they will have expierienced the ups and downs of patrol life more. They're more likely to relate to the material.

It's like orienteering. If you didn't bring your map and compass, you'd better hope someone marked a trail well enough for you. If you've hiked the trail several times, you'll see some new "targets", decide to bring your map and compass, and work the terrain. Those trail markers become irrelevant at best and an eyesore at worst. Those of us who have been "working the terrain" with the handbook(s) and fieldbook would rather not bother with JTE, but those who are new to this gig (e.g. my crew officers) kind of like the "trail markers". It let's them know where they are and what the potential could be. It's up to you whether JTE is a goal, irrelevent, or an eyesore.

BPT, why don't you think Summit and patrol cooking go together? Logistically, would it be any harder to provision raw ingredients at the beginning of the week (include vouchers's for the perishables) and allow the boys to plan their meals for the week according to their preference? I suspect Jamboree will operate more along the lines of commissary style, where ingredients are picked a half hour before meal times. Still I'm sure the boys will have plenty of time to enjoy the day's activities.

So, if a bunch of units abandon popcorn sales, how will your council get its "slice of the pie"? Add council dues to registration fees? Increase camp costs? Charge $5 for each tour plan you file? Just saying, the fact that not all of the proceeds go to your unit is not a reason to complain about popcorn sales. Who knew we were marketing the bio fuel of the future? Maybe there's a converter kit we could sell so costumers can supplement their gas tank!

SSSc, Aside from it being fore-country and not back-, yes. Let's just call it the LNT practicum. It's the part that nobody will give a certificate for, but it's the most valuable part of the "course."

Yep, I feel sorry for my daughter (who still gets sucked into venturing responsibilities even though she's an ex officer) ... every now and then for half a second, but ... Hunkering down on the deck of a sailboat in the Carribean while your dad names stars (at your request) until you fall asleep ... tell me, who does that the summer before entering college?

How much "cooler" do you want to go? In my neck of the woods ... http://www.heritagereservation.org/ offers a mix of trek activities for older boys (whitewater, mountain biking, caving, rock climbing). We leave it up to the boys if they want to sign up for such things, and a few of them take the initiative to try a challenge. Of course, most of the treks are in our "back yard", so the older boys wind up scheduling them (or tagging along with some venturers) over the course of the year anyway. Distance is the rate limiting issue for you (plus there's no comparison to the vistas in CO). But, I'm just putting it out there in case someone of like mind but a little closer to the Mason-Dixon line follows this thread. P.S. - Not to sound "condescending", but do make sure you have the "buy-in" of the boys before you explore too many options. It can be perplexing when you pick a site that seems to adress all of their complaints of the previous summer camp, and they decide they don't like that option by voting with their feet! I would give the boys a chance to sift through the info on all of the locations mentioned here. P.P.S. - Also, a lot of camps have already booked full for certain weeks, so you may also want to have the boys call ahead to see if your preferred dates for camp are still available.

FCFY is a great thing to preach until it's your son who decides to take 4 years to earn FC! I think a troop should provide opportunities to excersize each FC skill at least once every year. That includes but need not be limited to camporees and competitions. I think being honest with a scout who has a disability about his disadvantages in a particular skill is the best way to go. They and their patrol can sometimes surprise you. That's not the same as "too bad, so sad", but it is a little different than an "it's okay if you can't ..." By the same token, getting a waiver for a requirement needs agreement by the youth as well as his parent. And, my experience is that a boy will grudgingly agree to a waiver only after his doctor identifies a life-threatening physical impedement. Brent, I agree that HA should be in addition to -- not instead of -- summer camp. We definitely have that attitude of "show me the skills" and "best scout = the one who's always scouting", but I'm not sure my SM and I have the mental capacity to keep track of all those achievments!

... and people think I'm cavalier about my bear and shark encounters last month ... at least I could trust them to treat us with a little respect. No boy should have to witness such a tragedy.