qwazse

Our crew had one and I didn't know about it. (It amounted to a couple of $, but came in handy when registration got overcharged, and they needed to refund us.) They are that common around here. For once you're not crazy. (Well, no more than the rest of us.)

fa, I reread your question and the way you phrase it, it sounds like the crew is tightly related to the troop. They probably have the same unit #s (like mine) and the advisor and SM might be the same person (unlike mine). Point is, what I might express may have no relation to your two units. There is no one-size-fits all. Probably the first thing that you could do to make it sound like you are more of an expert in Venturing than what you are is get to know the adults and find out how they are leading things ... Are they two units who want to act a little more in unison? Are they effectively one unit who could stand to diversify a little? Are they fine with how they are organized? Where do the youth want to go, and do the leaders feel they can get them there? How engaged is the CO in the scouting program? You don't need hours of training to begin figuring these things out. Just keep in mind that there are no hard-and-fast rules as to how tightly or loosely troop and crew should operate under the same roof. As you learn the lay of the land, you will get an idea if you need to touch base with two fairly independent leaders on different occasions, or if you can sit them at the same table at the same time.

fireeagle29, [based on everything that I as an advisor did not get from my UC over the past five years ...] Ditto UCE. You might want to call the advisor, admit that you're new to this crew thing and would like to help by learning. Let him know your taking the training and ask him or any of his adults to join you if they haven't taken it. After that, a phone call every few months would be nice.

I knew one boy who submitted a recommendation from his sister. Can't remember if it fulfilled any particular category, but it was a rather nice letter. If you think everyone is being sincere (i.e., the letters collected seem to give the Board of Review and objective perspective of the boy), and you still have references from three other people, I'd take things at face value and move forward. If the boy can get a letter from someone else like Shortridge suggests, that's gravy.

MT - I have heard similar frustration among trainers in my district. Heck my youth felt it because two of them held a council-wide ILSC course and only three students showed up -- from a neighboring council! The harsh reality is that for most of us time is a rare commodity, and location isn't. So, I think districts should shamelessly promote courses council/area wide because a training day may work for only 5 people in a district, but but might work for 2 people in each of 10 neighboring districts. If this is the case for 3 or 4 training days throughout your region you'll get a lot of people trained. The problem then becomes how do you herd people to these various training opportunities without them getting so many announcements they ignore them all and miss out on then one day that they *could* attend?

Troop Meetings: 60 minutes. We give a little grace to go over from time to time if an activity is interesting or if there are a lot of BOR's. Crew meetings: 30 minutes. With the officers doing a lot of the heavy lifting developing program between meetings. Activities/training aren't considered meetings. For what it's worth, fall sports seem to be the most challenging time for our HS kids, so crew meetings don't really start up until the end of October and we roll through the summer. The troop on the other hand only meets when school is in session and not in the summer. (Again, shake downs or preparation for summer activities are not considered meetings.)

I'm tall too. Most packs can be extended to fit most human frames. I use a Kelty Trekker. What you want to avoid is getting a pack that is so large you get tempted to fill it! Even if you don't fill it, those extra cubic feet lead to more weight away from your back (once the gear settles) and more torque on your spine. End result, 40 pounds in a large pack drags more than 40 pounds in a smaller pack! Take at lest one hike a month with full gear, and you'll be able to make your mind up about what configuration suits you. Plus, you'll get some quality time with your daughter!

So, let's work on that "payment in kind" theme. Suppose (instead of individual accounts) a unit takes a poll of what youth would like to purchase, purchases gear in the desired proportions, and loans out gear to a member contingent upon him/her having participated in unit fundraisers at some agreed-upon level. (The thinking here is that one is more likely to be a better steward if there is some "sweat equity" in the equipment.) Is the value of the gear (depreciated by the time it is in the scout's possession) taxable? After all, to take Beav's argument to the extreme, the troop maintaining its own cache of tents/backpacks/helmets/ropes/dogsleds etc ... is depriving some outfitter somewhere of potential rental income.

... beyond the legality issues..why do we keep trying to justify it? Because there is something that sounds right about individual responsibility. That is, if you, Jack scout, raise funds for this organization, then you, Jack scout, has the right to allocate some of those funds for the needs of the organization. Note that our units' cultures are such that equipment, gear, uniforms, etc ... get handed down to new members of our units. If that did not happen, I assure you, many venturers in our community would never try backpacking. The up-front expense would be too much for a firs-timer. In fact, a scout that shows up prepared for a trip, (gear ready, properly uniformed, fees paid) provides an essential service to our community. Will that scout be able to write off his expenses (gear, uniforms, and fees) if his fund-raising is treated as income?

Also, personal management. Nothing directly related to the course, but if the boys are starting to earn income, learning to track it is a good thing. Along those lines, family life may be good to take at this time. Those two are ones boys put off until last. But I've seen it really hinder a boy (not just in making Eagle, but in enabling him to handle important issues -- high adventures, car maintenance, girlfriend -- in those teenage years). The content in the MB Pamphlet might not be new to him, but getting to know a couple more caring adults who he can talk to can make a huge difference.

Way to go TT. Bring in a USMC "heavy" to use the F word (the really nasty three letter one) on those dissenters! F.Y.I. - my young Venturing females have the same problem. I mean, they don't have "the problem", they just act like they do. It's a shame.

My daughter took the course. It's a little redundant (first aid and emergency preparedness), but also has helpful hints that boys may neglect (e.g., bring toys/videos, clean the kitchen once the kids are asleep, etc ...). After the course, your son should look over his first class requirements and see if there is anything he can demonstrate to the patrol leader. I think a first-aid merit badge counselor is going to want to see him demonstrate all the required skills. But, if your son tells him/her he has some red cross certification, he might be allowed to skip some reading/instruction and go straight to testing.

I have accumulated a variety of aluminum kits (and cast-iron ware) over the years (including utensils from garage sales), and I mix-and-match to suit my needs. Thus, mesh bags are a must. My son stole my aluminum cup (which I had "procured" from my brother many years ago). So I "procured" a wire-handled bowl/cup from the scout shack hand-me-downs. Most backpacking trips I take the bowl/cup, a spoon, and my pen-knife. (My espresso pot counts as a luxury item, not part of the mess kit.) Since I have a mesh bag, I prefer the kits that don't require nuts and bolts to attach handles (snags). I throw in a pot-holder and some lightweight tongs to grip stuff. The "outer layer" of my "complete" personal kit is a 2 quart pot and a teflon coated pan. And has a nice 1 quart pot on the inside. I used it since I was an older scout. It worked really well with my patrol b/c with a little wire, we would rig a double broiler and make chocolate fondue. Not something easily done with a scout mess kit. But, for your money, if BD is offering you a freebee, give him a call.

E92 - Yes. And sometimes we adults will present our packs to the youth so that they can see different styles/priorities. The problem with venturing age kids is the attendance and communication issue. In their mind a backpacking trip is a one-time event where, in reality it is a multi-weekend preparation program. I have one young lady who missed the training weekends, had her friends get her "up to speed", then was miserable on the back-country weekend. (Her mom loved it, BTW!) She swears she will never backpack again. le Voy - Do you encourage the youth in your unit to head out as minimally as you do?

dg - don't worry. I worded the ticket so that the measurable part of the goal was the invitations I sent and the RSVP's from my adults. That they RSVP's were negative is an irritant. Like I said, it's not about the beads! I'll bring this up with the youth. emb - they don't have time to attend meetings. Committee hasn't met in a hare's age. Yes, there is history here. (Which I won't bring up with you ... or the youth!) I was hoping that I could get some trained adults from whom to select a new CC. But maybe I'm putting the cart before the horse.

I'll back BP with the uniform experience. The more you push, the more they walk. The only way it happens is if the youth in the crew make it their own idea. But, I'll also agree that because my crew hasn't settled on a uniform over the past 6 years, they are nearly invisible in the community. They grow by word of mouth. I'm pretty convinced that's not good enough. A lot of times a youth will show up and say "I didn't realize __ was in this crew!" Skip, the necker is making more and more sense to me. I'll pitch it to my officers. After all, our VP did suggest capes a while back. (And you think the price of a field uni is expensive!) Could you post a site with some pics of several varieties, maybe I can use it as a conversation starter? It would be a really neat twist of fate if they did adopt the colors of what was once our troop necker! (The boys in the troop dropped it quite a few years ago.) Then at troop meetings a boy could wear both uni's to signify his membership in both units!

I was a little confused if that was 70% of all donations divided up into accounts for each scout or each scout who brought in a donation would get 70% of it in his account and 30% into his den'c account, anyway ... Not a pack, but ... Our troop sets a budget, donations first fund whatever is needed for the following year. (That includes bringing the general fund to a safe minimum, new equipment the SM thinks the troop needs based on QM's inventory, and SM's discretionary fund.) Then we consider increasing our scholarship/campership fund. Then (and here's that part that may not apply to a pack) with whatever profit has not been allocated to those needs, we divide up into scout accounts in proportion to the hours the scouts worked. That way they learn about business (e.g., you can "earn" something just by waiting tables but you can add value to those hours worked by increasing sales/marketing). If you have a huge bounty, I would suggest you roll it over into next years budget and ask the boys which fundraiser they liked the least, and drop that one. My second suggestion is use it to underwrite the cost of a popular activity like summer or day camp so that anyone who attends only has to pay half of it. I would not direct it to the boy or his den. Most donors are giving thinking you are building program for boys "like" the one they are handing the check to, not the little guy himself. I think it's better to do something special for the pack as a whole and announce that it was because of some generous donations. In fact, if donations were really above and beyond, your committee may want to consider putting an ad in the local paper thanking the community for their generous support.

I've been pretty lax with my venturers, and that costs us in distance traveled. For the scouts ... I would suggest 1/5 for new boys who are not in a weight training program. The older I get the more I realize I need to be at or near that mark! The other point of patrols is to divide up components. Cook kit from utensils from burner from stove. Tent from fly from stakes from pegs. Finding a lighter sleeping bag cheap is one of my bigger challenges. I'm skeptical about the weight exchange between tarps and tents. But then I use a very small tent or carry half of a buddy's larger one. Multiple trips of varying challenge are important. The kid who hasn't done the 4 mile shakedown hike should not be on the 15 mile weekend. (Unless you have a plan "B" that can safely reduce the trip to 6 miles if things aren't working out.) Once they've felt the load they'll more likely listen to those tips about weight saving, balancing, etc...

You as a committee can do something ... Move that lacking a financial report to guide your decisions, move that fees be held at previous years' levels. Move to table any discussion about finances until a financial report of actual vs. budgeted expenses is presented. Make plans for spending cuts until these issues are resolved. This strategy is not without risk. You might assume that you cannot do a program when in fact you might have a balance on your account. But it's better to take the treasurer at her word and figure out what are the wrong assumptions about your budget. Here's hoping that you all can find a fix soon.

Okay, most crews are dysfunctional in a lotta ways. Most of those are for the officers to fix. And, really, I've found my youth do a pretty good job about working around each other's (and my) shortcomings. But as you know the thorn in my side are otherwise competent MC's who are never available to get VLST. There are some external factors that drive this (e.g. in this economy everyone is pulling double shifts, council cancelled one opportunity), but the bottom line is they don't see the need. They're fine with it being mandatory for me and my co-advisor, but I feel that when we meet, we're not always playing from the same book. (BP's example of folks wanting the crew to act like a troop comes to mind.) Also the fact that getting 3 adults trained is on my Woodbadge ticket goads me something fierce. But forget the beads, it's all about the kids! Is this your experience? Solutions?

Emb - I and my co-advisor couldn't agree with you more. And until somebody with more knots on their uni than mine comes and asks for my MCs' membership cards back we're stuck with "what should be and what is ain't always."

BD - our troop had a similar refugee problem on about 1/3 the scale of yours. Ultimately led to a spin-off of a new troop (by the folks who resented our refugees' "lack of discipline"). I've posted before about how the SM and I decided we should advertise with a big sign "Troop ___, we take bad kids." Didn't do it because the last thing we needed was boys acting more gansta than they already thought they were. Bottom line: our boys weren't hurt at all. No complaints. The spin-off is doing alright. The boys in it complain a little because they got a flood of cross-overs and were overwhelm. But they're sticking with it. If the adults get over a few hangups, it may actually last more than a couple of years. Point is, get your adults rolling -- as many trained as will allow. Then someday at a campfire or someplace where folks can sit back and brainstorm, drop the bomb: "This community doesn't need one big pack, it needs a couple more good packs. I might be looking at the best leaders those packs could ever have ..."

Two words: command respect.

BP touched on the downside: trained adult leaders. You need some folks committed to being trained in how to support a different program, yet also committed to scouting as a whole. Moreover, you'll be asking for some teamwork from the troop as well as the CO (scheduling use of the facilities, sharing leadership, coordinating with existing youth-groups, joint activities vs. separate, etc ...). If you have a couple of adults lined up for crew advisor and CC, and you can get them to Venturing Leader Specific Training (VLST), then you're halfway there. If not, you may need to let your COR know that he/she may need to be giving your adult leaders that occasional "gentle nudge" to get trained. Is VLST required? No. Most everything is in the leader's manual. But, I can say it has helped me set the program in the right direction and connect with other scouters who've been my advisors. Meanwhile, I have a committee that has passed on every opportunity to take it, and I can say it has limited their ability to serve the youth 100% effectively.(This message has been edited by qwazse)

[insert envy emoticon here] Have them figure out something to do with all those ribbons. Weave them into a doormat or lampshade or something. Boy scout "factories" could include: Klondike derby, rope-making, backpack repair, tent care, climbing gear maintenance. Those are things where you may need a little more space from floor to ceiling. You also may need some way to utilize the outside, (e.g. a drying rack for canvas or nylon tents that would make it easy to hang them for the afternoon and quickly fold at the end of the day).(This message has been edited by qwazse)