qwazse

I'm with you Blanc ... At round-table one SM told us he ran it by his boys. He said they came up with unreasonably high expectations and had to tone things down or even the boys who came up with them wouldn't pass! Talk to the boys. Make it achievable. Make it fun.

BP - awesome works mentality there! Don't ever dispense 3 hours of grace for one hour of penance! I believe in overlapping service requirements as much as the letter allows. Our kids do great things, we need to recognize them for it. If we spare them the misery of finding time to fulfill non-overlapping service hours, we FREE them to serve according to their gifts. And they do! So, LET THEM. Within scouting if an MB requirement states that the project cannot be counted for other service hours, then it is non-overlapping. If it doesn't state otherwise then it is overlapping. I agree that a scout should plan ahead and get approval rather than make things add up after the fact. But, invariably, we find a kid who's coming up short on paper has been working as hard as the next guy. He simply never thought to log those hours (lousy bureaucrat, great servant).(This message has been edited by qwazse)

Some practical stuff for the terrain is never a bad idea: bungee cords/tie downs of some kind, ponchos or survival blankets, flint/steel and tinder kit, directions to your favorite campsite location (something that might not be on the regular map). little compasses. fishing line/spare hooks your favorite lure (ask that they post a picture of the next fish they catch with it) Some personalized stuff is great. If you are in a club, see if they have a tokens of some kind (pin's, coins, laminated cards). I had a kid pick one up a coin this weekend, it wasn't a geocoin, but a nice momento none-the-less. If you want to go over the top, you could buy some geotags and attach them to mini wooden paddles, or toy canoes. Then you can see how many migrate over the globe! Most important: make sure you have a durable log book and a half dozen pens/pencils. I love to stamp logbooks! As soon as you submit it, it will get reviewed, at least on paper! Chances are there is a reviewer for your area of interest. If no caches have been put there before, he might be excited to help you with advice.

Moose, How do I put this? O.K. Here goes: Your vision is somewhat parochial. I grew up in a football family. One cousin went pro, a couple sibs played Division I college. If you got tickets to a game you went in suit and tie or (military dress if you were on active duty). You did not put on team colors or wear a team jersey. Maybe you carried a pennant to wave. This was out of respect for the players and the game (which, in our parts was just shy of a religion). You would not dare to presume that you were "in the game" in the same way that those boys on the gridiron were. You certainly did not play dress-up and wear their numbers and put eye-liner on and look like some clown from who-knows-where. You showed up like it was church and the players were giving a sermon. With that culture in mind, the men at my EBOR wore suits; ladies, business dress. In their mind, it would insult the scout to even presume that they were "in the game" in the same way that he or his scoutmaster was. Out of respect to the boy, they tried to look as sharp as they would for the preacher on Sunday morning, or the team on game day. It was my first "professional" interview, and has made every one since an enjoyable experience. I'm not saying it's the way it has to be for the boys in your district. Just don't go thinking anyone's doing their boys a disservice if it isn't that way in their district.

I have a friend who went with his son to Tinnerman a few years ago. They had a great experience. A while back someone posted a topic about how rising fuel costs (and the economy in general) may affect your program. Well ...

Let me start with a statistical sample of 8 (i.e. my youngest son's den). They all crossed over. Three years later none had made first class. Two remain in scouting. (One died, two relocated, three quit.) So I guess those boys have been deprived of "Well-delivered programming", thanks to the leadership of my SM and his lackeys (your's truly included). But, those two boys LOVE their troop. My son made FC at the 3.5 year mark and was elected PL. His buddy has to overcome a fear of H2O. In the meantime they've both racked up some MB's that interest them. Do you really think the other boys, having earned FC two and a half years ago, would have been with us today? For the one boy, I wish it were true. But, a bogus badge of rank would have done nothing to keep that truck's brakes from failing.

I do like the concept of a merit badge "pow-wow" implying an introduction to the topic and a counselor with the possibility of completing the badge later like some of you described vs. "university" implying a knock-it-out-in-a-weekend mentality with the probability of you completing a badge or two. Fact is, unless you have a hand in the planning, you'll never know which it's gonna be. So, I would suggest you get together with a couple of SM's in your district, decide which four or five specialties you might present (maybe on a job site) and offer, say, "An introduction to ____". Now, if you are in one of those districts that happens to have two dozen counselors all free on the same weekend, you could have a massive "pow-wow", but I think it would be better for the boys if different badge learning opportunities (with the subsequent possibility - not probability - of badge earning) were highlighted by a district every month.

O.T. - Really really bad idea. Just sayin'. Two phrases: "The kids/parents need you to focus on this." "The kids/parents need you to back away from that." Suggestion: if you act like you're out to lunch -- like your just this nut that only cares about cute little boys having a barrel of fun and has no clue about the work that "needs" to get done -- sometimes they stop knocking at your door! Alternative: build a collection of videos of the "last minutes" of recent dictators and point out that you would rather an adult's scouting career end on a more upbeat note.

OTN's neighbor pack is a "Friends of Pack ###" charter. One of the "friends" happened to have a relationship with that church and provided space using that building. Two organizations, two packs, they just happen - through separate channels - to provide the same physical space. And I suspect that neither unit wants the DE looking into anything. If you ask someone for a rule, they might just make one for you!

Here's how I handle this ... (the registration part ... for the peacemaking part you're on your own) ... let's call it the "what applications?" strategy: Only register the paid youth. Let the unpaid youth know that they are not on the roster until they put money behind their paperwork. That means they can come to pack meetings but not activities. At each den meeting if they bring a dollar until they are paid up, then you'll register them. Tell your COR and your DE that's your plan unless some generous donor comes forward to underwrite the registrations. If your DE says those kids are uninsured send the parents a note "I'm sorry, I was just informed by Mr. ____ that you can't be in the program until you pay him his money!" In your situation, you can no longer be fronting youth. Aside from the hit on your wallet, it will only add to your resentment.

If I'm gettin' sued anyway, I'm goin down helpin'.

We encourage our youth to leverage their Eagle projects or Bronze award requirements for school requirements. It makes for senior projects of a higher caliber. Our school holds them up as exemplary projects.

M2C - I've seen it pan out (with jr. high youth groups on co-ed camping trips) the way you fear it would. I've also seen the opposite (girls take the lead, boys take the crap jobs). I've seen my crew start out with cliques along gender lines and by the end of the hike they realize they might get less lost if they work the map and compass together. In general, I've seen it go back and forth so much that I don't worry about it any more. My SM made us scrapbook after every trip. A couple of boys had to put together a poster with pictures and captions so we could display them at the next court of honor. Our webmaster effectively is doing the same thing. And ...knitting is just a form of knot-work! They boys' lashings might be a bit tighter if the girls challenged them to ramp-it-up! Again, I'm perfectly happy keeping things segregated as long as the GS moms in my community develop a strong outdoor program for their girls. If that keeps failing to happen, it makes it very difficult for the freshmen women in my crew to transition to our style of doing things. Both programs loose.

Sounds like "just one of those things" that makes your CO special! The best you could do is emphasize with your COR that you would rather not be bumping into the other pack on the same night, and ask how much more trouble it would be for the church secretary to call each pack's COR to review the season's schedule. If that doesn't help, work directly with the other pack to minimize overlap. And, when there is overlap, see if there's a way you can share resources (e.g., a common snack time after the meeting, etc ...). I've generally found it works best when units leverage the positives in the situations handed to them. Turn that pebble into a nugget! P.S. - Historically, Christians have done some pretty nasty things when it comes to turf, so don't let that stop you. The only thing that's really holding you back is that you're a scout.

I've observed the same with my crew, although it shifts back and forth. Sometimes the boys can come in, look at a list of potential activities and say "We gotta do X, Y, and Z, and that's it!" They spell it out, everyone buys in. Girl scouts are really good organizers. 'Nuff said. M2C - you don't have to be in an old boy's club to be anti-feminist. So if the shoe fits ... we promise not to throw it at you! The co-ed thing, it works really well for high-school age kids. It takes a lot of work for middle-school kids, but don't worry. I've seen from youth groups who camp: if it's a group of girls whom the boys have grown to trust, the goofy will out! That said, we're all comfortable with segregating the middle-school scouts so as long as we keep challenging GS to put out a strong outdoor program, things can stay the way they are. The parents who are frustrated with the status quo often tend to have daughters for whom GS is a poor fit. I have not met any parents of boys who wish they could have a program more like GS for their son.

I think if the boy is helping his patrol pick the terrain in advance of the hike and plays an active role in calculating distance identifying way points and guiding where he can, you've met the requirements. If the doctor says "5 miles? No way!" respect that. Regarding the difficulty with respect to Orienteering ... this is where we put the cart before the horse. Orienteering MB is not Eagle required and is about the sport of orienteering, which may or may not be more difficult than the orienteering required for navigation. The way I read the T2FC requirement is that the scout should qualify to take his boys hiking and camping. Now, you'd like to think that a boy who could earn Orienteering MB would be able to do that. But, suppose he's one tough nut with lots of skills climbing/bouldering, so he tackles his cross country course with lots of climbing and sheer grit and some luck with dead reckoning. He gets the MB. Now even if the course is long enough for the First Class requirement (8k instead of 3k) it doesn't mean that the boy has the good sense to put together a safe hike for his buddies. An example of someone who met the first class requirement: a boy came up to us last night and said "I have copies of the map of this weekend's hike -- one that includes topographic lines. Should I bring them?" Um, yeah. Will you lead the hike for us? Bottom line: if he's shown a skill level that you could trust him to take his boys on a hike in your area, he's earned the requirement. If not, don't pass him just because someone signed his Orienteering MB blue card.

My poor wife has called me on several occasions before calling 911 and had to endure me curtly telling her, 'Then what are you talking to me for?' Fortunately, nothing came of it, and we have had lots of years together correcting other bad habits! Thank for the reminder.

vb, In general, always give the boy an objective when you withhold something. For example, "I'd like to see you go a month without hitting a fellow scout before giving you a blue card. Let's set a date to meet next month and review if you're ready for me to give you a counselor's phone number." Or, "I'd like to see you come back with a completed blue card in [name that MB] before I sign the next one. Can you do that in a week or two?" MBC's are precious commodities, and depending on the topic, they may not countenance an undisciplined scout. Other counselors may be perfect for the boy, but you should give them a "head's up". So, you tell the boy "I have a counselor in mind for you, but let me give him a call to see if he's still available. Can you come back to me next week?" Most of the time you'd give the boy an MBC's contact info up front, but if a boy is already spread thin with lots of badges to work on, you may want to talk to the MBC first to get his/her opinion on the matter. It's all about getting everyone on the same page like JK said.(This message has been edited by qwazse)

JK, The distance *walked* is not the point. The point is to be qualified to navigate one's patrol in the terrain they typically encounter where they hike and camp. A five mile hike is merely one of the most entertaining ways (from a scout's perspective) to do that. If you "dumb down" the requirement to one of mere physical stamina, you put a patrol at risk of not being able to execute a reasonable hike plan once this boy is fit to move over hill and dale! Whatever you do, folks, do not compromise the integrity of this requirement just so the boy can walk instead of ride!!!! Who knows? It may be your life that depends on that boy being able to navigate his way to the ranger's station! It's odd how 5yr's scout gets that he has not yet been adequately challenged to meet this requirement, while some of you are struggling with that. I bet when they finally make this a tough enough mental challenge without shortchanging the doctor's orders, he'll let 5yr know.

I think the weekly pack meeting would only be sustainable with small numbers. For me the tough thing about pack meetings is the decibel level. It took me about a month to recover from the "shell shock" of each pack meeting! (I now hold CM's and elementary school teachers in very high esteem.)

BTW, E732, I am getting the "I don't like" talk from my crew officers. They don't realize that language like that comes off as "I'm not going to help you put together the program you may enjoy." I chalk part of it to outright selfishness. Part of their motivation for joining a crew was to get away from the littlun's (i.e. younger scouts). Now that they're bigger biggun's, someone needs to do program, that someone is them, and there's nowhere to hide. Part of it is burn-out. Expenses have increased and earning potential has not, so they need to work harder to afford their adventures and support their families. (If they were in the "bad kid" category, the "no free lunch" reality has hit them hard.) My best officer material pull double shifts (be it at work or college or boot camp) to make ends meet. That leaves little time for venturing.

I'll admit. The projector for the playoff game was more a luxury for me and the SM who had committed to this weekend when play-off hopes were thin. The boys' memories of that weekend involve sledding, snow-men, campfire, and who left their boots outside of their tent while it snowed overnight. Keep up the good work.

"You get out what you put into it." That's my line to the boys. We have some pretty bad kids who are actually great scouts. Why? They commit to meetings (about an hour a week). They fit camping in their schedule (30 hours a month). They show up at service projects (8 hours a month). They fund-raise (4 hours a month). Then they should do a little work on advancement (1 hour/week, averaged over their career), plan outings (1-2 hours month). On top of it they are the privileged few who get SM's "special" attention (1 hour/month issue specific conferences!). Really, it's amazing that they want to put any time into this program at all! But keep in mind that kids this age are just beginning to load up their schedule, and most of them would not understand a time commitment if you gave it to them. Time involvement is a quantity that may help parents more than boys.

Movie? No way. Scouting is outing! Steelers/Raven's play-off game projected on a the wall of a dining fly during a winter camp-out? Well, in these parts that almost counts as being reverent! Really, the best part (besides the outcome of the game) was explaining to an internetTV-age scout how an antenna worked!

I find my Swiss Army knives get that way over time. Cleaning the hinges with a little sewing machine oil or WD-40 and q-tip sometimes helps. I've recovered "buried" knives (from previous homeowner?) while mowing lawn. A day's soak in baking soda and another day in white vinegar sometimes helps.