qwazse

When we played the lottery (couple years before you) the spring and winter break slots were open. Never could get my crew to part with family for the holidays. Spring break is usually problematic around here because snow days are taken out of that break.

Flowers and chocolates to your wife, every month. Work really hard to remember what it was to be a scout the age of those in your unit. You'll do just fine.

Clearly BSA sheds liability in these cases. But, at what cost? Obviously there is a perverse calculus that the losses in registration fees (from boys who would rather spend them on a weekend out with their buddies) will be offset by decreased exposure to litigation. Yep, I remember troops like that in the 80s. As a country youth, I chalked it up to "citification." Now that I live in suburb/hood, and volunteer with a variety of adults, I realize that there are parents who will allow certain levels of independence to foster, and others who just can't bring themselves to do so. SM just told me about counseling camping MB for a boy who left our troop right after his first year a while back. Not one backpacking night in the four years since! There are lots of reasons why his troop never did this (so far), but it is discouraging to hear because these are scouters who could make it happen, and they oughtta know I'd loan them the youth to make it so.

Well, there are lots of ways to go over the deep end with this. For example, an SMC at a coffee shop (because maybe meetings aren't working out, or in my case a youth sees me on a break and wants to sit down and talk about his rank advancement) there may be dozens of adults and youth present, a few of them know each of us, but what if none that I know are scouters? Should we shout "Is there a card carrying member of the BSA in the house?" before starting a conversation? I would say not, because we have both upheld the intent of no one-on-one contact. On the other hand, if someone were to schedule repeated SMCs with one boy during troop meetings (where adults and scouts are in the same room) without specifically telling anyone else why he/she needed to do so, one might consider insisting they change their behavior, because even though they stick to the letter of the law, there might be a "hair on the back of the neck" feeling that the intent is being violated.

Overthink much?

Not enough experience to have an opinion on this one. Shared council facilities with outside groups on weekends and such, and everyone pretty much kept to themselves, or collaborated in a couple of common activities. Not sure how a week long camp would work,

No, it does not assume. Youth have come to me with plans for weekend campout or hike. They have various qualifications (certified EMT, seasoned hiker, etc ...) and I would advise them on their plan, loan gear (sometimes give keys to the car), and bless them as they went on their way. Who am I to gainsay a solid plan by requiring them to take on two more persons who may add cost and risk to the venture? Just because the BSA no longer supports the pinnacle scouting experience, doesn't mean I have to. Scouting happens. Inasmuch as BSA supports it, folks will support the BSA.

Or, it could be that the scout is doing his best and performing a a reasonable level for his age. Evaluate him over the next month, if he assists the SPL, shows up prepared for meetings including your PLC, and fills in where necessary, etc ... stop worrying. If not pick one thing to improve upon in the next month. If he does, next month give him another thing. (Do this in consultation with the SPL by asking "how do you think you'll need your sidekick to help you in the coming month?") If the boy does nothing, remove him from office. Give him a month to decide if there's another POR where he would like to contribute. Stop judging a kid by age. Rather, attend to his actions. How is this hard?

If anybody out there in internet land is doing such a thing, I'm with Stosh on this one. Johnny might be doing the troop a world of good going to Jambo or Philmont, but Mom and Dad don't get a deduction on it. Gimme back my tax $$ with interest! Folks who would like to pull those kind of stunts are a good reason to steer your unit clear of ISAs; however, I'm not gonna wag a finger at folks who aren't trying to use this as a tax shelter ... The folks who spoke at RT said scale is the issue. The organizations flagged by the IRS were fundraising to such a degree and in such large amounts -- the entire portion of which being an individual benefit and employing parents more than youth to garner it -- that it was deemed taxable income of the parents. A boy who earns a grand a year for camp, gear, and to eventually go on an HA in a few years isn't going to be taxed anyway (his work, his income, not his parents) -- probably not even required to file. So socking it in an ISA is not drawing the ethical dilemma that folks say it would be.

Nice sentiments, but "patrol" is not a method of venturing. Nor of O/A or Explorers. These are youth who in one way or another are recognized for "coming into their own" in the world of scouting. They see themselves as much part of the "adult" team as anything. They have boundary issues .... In a good way.

It's like my RT commish has an evil twin. Starting to think that the national policy is an attempt to shield the organization from liability on the slim chance that someone would want to use the IRS as a bludgeon -- not out of any real sense of ethics or impending investigation of every charter org across the nation.

Let's be honest, few of us need to know any of this. But since your typing ... Are positions of responsibility, like PL, required for advancement (i.e. for the chief scout's award)?

Seriously, it's a matter of proportions. Did they specify how much? 8 oz per person (for, say after lunch) is one thing, a liter per person per day is another.

A box of baking soda shouldn't cause that much trouble ....

I think part of the flaw is your definition of "life-changing", which has been part of the BSA profit-centered machine. Jamborees are just oversized conventions HAs are outdoor money pits accessed by a fraction of our membership. In and of themselves they are not life-changing. Thrilling, moving, memorable, etc ...not life-changing. The signature life changing experience of scouting comes when a boy takes his patrol independently hiking or camping. This is the pinnacle of scouting experience. This is "the key" that we use to unlock a youth's confidence to plan service projects, to explore hobbies and interests, to prepare to save lives. We need to get back to treating qualifying to take your patrol hiking and camping as the pinnacle of the scouting experience, and all the other "big ticket" items as nifty trails you can take down off that summit of your First-Class journey.

Sounds like you rightly called it a patrol patch. They are optional for Webelos dens (in spite of some of us old farts who totter around muttering "dens have numbers, patrols have names!"), and it sounds like your pack chose to exercise that option. Have fun with it!

Well, maybe my older youth are messed up in the head, like E441. (Well, maybe not quite so messed up .. at least they know to find the dutch-oven course on their lunch break. ) But, as far as I can tell, there is nothing particularly special about any BSA "adult" training. My older youth want to know what I'm thinking. They want to shoulder some of my responsibilities. They want to make scouting better. To do that, they need to listen (and talk back to) our council's scouters (volunteers and pros). And they need to do so in a variety of settings: both classroom and field.

Seems to me that our sex's tolerance level doesn't weigh much into the equation. Queen DD's, on the other hand ...

The kind of sorrow that follows for years ... Prayers for all involved.

Sentinel, one other thing to ask yourself: what will you be doing with the adults in attendance? This parallels the 300' thing. I recall in my JLT, the SM was "invisible" to me. They showed up at flags and if there was a first aid issue (of which I had a handful that week). But, for teaching sessions, etc ... they kept that distance, dropping in from time to time to see which other appendage I may have burned, bruised, or cut. When we provide ILSC at the council level, we make sure there's a parallel VLST for the adults -- mainly to give the youth the space they need to interact on their own. There's usually an advisor in the room, and he/she keeps in a corner but may jump in to even out the number of participants in an activity. At the end of the day, we usually bring the youth over to "teach" by serving as panelists to cover any questions the adults may have brought up throughout the day. Oh, and we don't require a youth to have taken ILSC before they can help instruct. If they've been in the program for years and care enough to take on positions of responsibility, they are ready to teach. If one of our officers has taken the course, he/she takes charge of dividing up the materials and communicating with his/her co-instructors.

Let's not forget money. The mere cost of membership -- for those who are allowed to be members -- has outpaced inflation. Other cultural issues come into play: - Single parenting. This group has to work harder than others to make scouting work for their boys. This number may increase, I suspect, when unions where there is an inequality of reproductive burden are no longer held in unique esteem. - Post-Modern Nomads. We are commuting longer than any generation before. This includes the average scout's home being further from school/troop./ball field than ever before. Each activity involves a trek, while there are fewer hours for shuttling to/from activities. - Profusion. (Yes it's a thing.) There's more stuff to do. The football team doesn't have the best running backs because most are playing soccer. Our school musical runs for two weekends, then there's the state-wide competition. Then there's the awards. Meanwhile softball season is starting. Plus online gaming and other camps. The value of BSA is diluted by the competing value of these other activities. I will also have to say, an elitist attitude. No one should brag about excluding certain groups, but some scouters do. No one should brag about our boys, except when they show themselves as public servants, but "Are You Tougher Than A Boy Scout" is the line for the day. I had one advisor/SM at his wits end because his boys were picking on a venturer because "she could never be and Eagle and the Silver Award would never count for as much." It's a tough balance between pride in your work and humility towards others, but I am a little concerned that we haven't quite got that right.

(Buyer beware: the following comes from limited experience advising ILSC, but I have a suspicion that what works for venturers also applies here.) On the plus: twenty boys! That's an awesome number. Like has been noted above, ILST is not patrol leader training. So don't make it that. If all these boys signed up for leadership training, you want their learning experience to reflect what you'd like to see in their leadership experience over the next year -- regardless of the patch on their sleeve. Look at what I've clipped from your OP. In one paragraph, you set the SPL's to conduct the training and the ad-hoc patrols do their thing. In the next paragraph, you don't like your SPL's doing all of the heavy lifting. If you don't approve of a management model, DO NOT CONDUCT TRAINING VIA THAT MODEL! Your course has three modules. Split the boys into 3 patrols. Hand each patrol a module, and tell them they are responsible to present the material of that course. You may assign an SPL/ASPL to each patrol, but make clear in no uncertain terms that during their turn presenting their course, a patrol is not to give their senior leader a speaking role. Talk to your seniors, and ask them to do their best to support their respective patrol as a "servant leader." You might encourage them to help one or two boys who they've seen taking a "back seat" to step up their game just a little. What will that actually look like? I dunno, it's your troop and you know these boys. But, leadership skills starts by practicing leading. Not by being lectured.