qwazse

Setting the record straight ... The boy bent the ears of his fellow scouts this week as well (so I learned). They were as important an influence as I was. This is one BoR in five so far. I don't think the boy will consider this habit of testing as one to take up as an adult committee member. It's not in his character. I hope we soon have a little more time to reflect on it. The hit-the-ground-running leadership that I'm expecting from venturers is not organizational skills. (They have a long way to go on those lines.) I'm looking for them to love one another enough to make things happen for the good of the group. Think of scout skills as a form of fellowship. You tie knots with your mates, build a gadget together, prep for a campout, build the fire that others want to gather around, etc ... that generates camaraderie around which one might practice leadership. PoRs and service projects attempt to codify some of that fellowship for the sake of leadership development. I'm not gonna come down so hard on adult leaders who mean well. Being blind-sided brings out some bad stuff. That's okay. I am concerned that there will be that able-bodied scout who gets tested one too many times and will grow to avoid advancement (or scouting in general) because they think the BoR is petty.

As long as there is a fair accounting of the wrath that was stayed by said beliefs, there is a conversation to be had ... preferably over a really good meal.

Suggestion (esp. to Christians, but can generalize to anyone): invite your muslim friends and acquaintances (random strangers too) over to dinner. Go through the effort of getting meat from a halal (or lacking that, kosher) butcher. This time of year, read the stories of the nativity from the koran as well of the gospel. (Suggestion: a gospel of Luke is available in English, but with the Islamic names of characters and places inserted, really makes for a great party gift.) Talk about Christmas traditions and where they come from. Love each other's kids. More time consuming than clicking some links ... but generally more satisfying.

I'm pretty sure you're not gonna find anything official, but you can ask Bryan to try to get one: http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/contact/ However, my rule #1 is to never ask for a rule. You'll probably live to regret it.

So my venturers, while snacking on the coal I gave them, were working on the knots. The Italian would try to figure out which they were talking about. It didn't help that they started by saying "a noose that doesn't slip." "Noose?" Then a minute of futile pantomime ... at which point they decided it was best to actually tie the thing. Finally, when she saw it, would exclaim something like "Oh, bolino!" Beyond the translation challenges. They had learned it by different stories: Most of the boys used the "pretzel" method. I grew up with a "hole" in front of a "tree", and a "rabbit" coming out of the hole, around the tree and back in. The Italian had a "lake" and a "frog" jumping in and out of it. The Italian said, "Do you know this knot? We call it something like daisy." One boy said, "Maybe it's a girl scout knot." She said, "I'm not a girl scout. I'm a scout." I'm staring and staring, then I pick up both ends and pull and say "Oh, sheepshank!" One of my co-leaders then (knowing that my brothers were Navy men) smarts off "Daisy is probably what sailors probably call it!" Anyway, a knot by any other name still holds, unless it slips.

Follow-up: I laid out the various options to the scout in writing, and suggested he think kindly toward any adult who means him well. He opted to maintain his primary membership with the troop and master and demonstrate his skills, documentation, etc ... to the board. He now has Life rank. This process gave me time to explain that "Leadership Training" is a method of boy scouting, but "Leadership" is the method of venturing. (I.e.: Training's done. Time for action.) Going forward he wants to provide more leadership to the crew ... and has already started to line up events. So, I gave him rights to the mailing list and told him to get "the conversation" started. Likewise regarding skills, I'm not wasting time testing, but I expect mastery. He promised he will learn "all the knots". So, last night I had him go grab the rope box, give everybody some lengths to work on, and they occupied their time going over the various schemes they learned to help them remember. (I'll add another topic about that.) For their efforts, I gave them a pouch of coal (candy, from the cake-decorating shop).

My knee-jerk would be to ask if the Troop met their JTE goals, and if they did, keep sporting it. If they did not, put it in the patch-collection jar as a memento of how cool his pack was. If your scuttlebutt is valid, the patch might be a trade-able item years down the line.

Were they near the Cuyahoga?

The difference between a 1 patrol troop and a 4+ patrol troop are the dynamics. With a 1 patrol troop, the SM has at most 7-9 boys dissatisfied with a leader or one PL dissatisfied with his boys and it is obviously on them to fix it. The SM can provide some devoted opportunities like "Are you asking for change? Or are you asking for some pointers/practice on working with each other better?" Then, the SM can guide accordingly. That will happen occasionally. We can tell the scouts "He who does the work is holding a PoR ... patches on sleeves mean little." With a 4+ patrols, democracy lessons are more relevant because such formalities allow boys to see change in action. Maybe a patrol's okay (or, at least, flying under everyone's radar), but at election time they'll see if the Next Door Patrol decides to shake things up as a means to improve their scouting experience. On top of that, they see the SPL assigning PoRs and learn the importance of paying attention to who someone appoints for the good of the troop. This entire exercise should run independent of the advancement method. In other words, every first class scout (concept, not patch) will continuously take some responsibility for making the troop better. That responsibility should somewhat suit his time and talents. If that's happening, the advancement discussion may begin -- no bean counting involved. The tail should not wag the dog. So, a boy makes FC two months after the elections in a troop with a 12 month cycle. Should the SPL and SM find a position or project for him? Yes! But for advancement? No! He should get a position/project because responsibility to first class scouts (concept, not patch) is like water for crops.

@@KevinRiner, I think the best strategy for you is to think who in your faith community should be nominated for such an award, and to get with the committee, as @@SSScout described, and submit those parishioners' for nomination. Drum up enthusiasm over the long haul. That way even if you yourself don't get an award, you can be proud of the many good people who rightly get the recognition they deserve thanks to your due diligence. Your son will take pride in you being that kind of dad.

I was hoping to wrap ours up this weekend. But mid-terms and a forecast of warming temps with freezing rain all day gutted the backpacking trip. But, there is enthusiasm to get back in the swing of things ... hopefully they show up with $ on Monday for our Jan 6th winter getaway. This video might help "throw down the gauntlet."

They are still represented on a national level by these individuals and their respective cabinets. I will also add that, although these (and the various council, area, and regional positions of responsibility) are roles that most of our seasoned scouts should aspire to, they are a bit of a side-show to the pinnacle scouting experience: hiking and camping independently with your mates. Do that first, and other honors and positions of support/promotion will begin to have meaning.

Best so far: the Hey Chris patrol. They never came up with a patch or yell, but that wasn't the point. At the time, it was both SPL and ASPL's first name. Thus regardless of who was presiding at roll call, the PL could sound off, "Hey Chris, All present or accounted for."

Already in place ... shared between the OA National Chief and President of the National Venturing Youth Cabinet.

That was the beauty of ODL, switching programs was just a matter of switching epaulets and neckers ... Unless you decided to advise an explorer post or Sea Scout ship. For those folks, tan shirts were a step down. I was really proud of my new tan shirt until I realized that those scouts weren't shedding their greens or whites. So much for one shade to rule them all.

Welcome to the forums and thanks for your service to the boys! I have a relative who is a minister and was a CM for a while ... intense but rewarding. I was taught that all of the adult awards are in some way nominated. That process is not in BSA's control at all. But, you will have to accept that being the person who has actually looked into these things, you are more expert than 80% of us.

@@beaglelover, Welcome to the forums and thanks for your service to the boys! Situations like these tend to have local and state regulations that can guide you. Your district executive (DE) and your counsel scout executive (SE) should have the best understanding of what you can and cannot do in this situation. Arrange to contact them along with your den leader, cubmaster, and committee chair. Maybe include the mother. Sadly, we had a similar situation where a father was threatening to exercise his right as a scout-parent to spend more time with his son. The grandparents, who had custody, concluded that the safest path was to keep the boy out of scouting. At the end of the day, it's up to the custodial parent to determine what is safe for his/her child. It's on you all to know what you as volunteers can and cannot provide (in both a legal and practical sense), and let the boy's mom decide the risk vs. benefit.

Yeah, NJ it's probably a convention more than a rule. Keeps HQ from slip-ups. In fact I have only one scout who earned his eagle "with" he crew. That's in quotes because it was a slip of the registrar's mouse that caused her to click the wrong unit in the drop-down. Nobody noticed until I got a phone call (instead of the SM) to pick up the kit. By then the scout said it wasn't worth going through the paperwork correcting the NESA card, and HQ was glad for one less troop to jump through. As a practical matter, I can't see going that route without thorough communication with the SM. (Or other advisors, if the boy belongs to multiple crews.)

No transfer necessary. Think about the reverse: a boy don't have to be primary in a crew to earn venturing awards.

That's correct. I (and the ASM) know only what the scout told us. So, I can only give you the message the boy heard ... not the one that any on the committee actually said. Basically we were sitting with the scout, his two buddies (one youth one young adult), his dad and his younger brother (who will soon cross-over into this troop). But, we were chatting with the committee members before hand, while we thought the boy was going to just jump through the hoops. We kinda knew their opinion. So, I have no reason to doubt they reacted the way the boy said they did. A decade ago, I may have done the same. The ASM is going to do the follow-up. After the boys left, we did a mild re-hash of the core issues. Myself, I've been trying "speak when spoken to." On the other hand, I'm wondering if I could have spoken a week earlier and asked the board to rescind their decision and approve with no further review.

I only ever met the man as a youth at a BL exhibit. He was stuck there signing autographs. Looked like he would rather have been moving around.

I think this board has seen such documents. They are choosing to ignore them. But you are right. Boys don't read their handbooks well, let alone other BSA literature. I think he would have been better served letting the SM or ASM know his position on the matter, followed by providing the board the literature that he was reading, and letting them know in advance, then arranging a face-to-face respectfully describing why he thought it was for the good of the troop that he stands his ground. All that communication takes time. The scout is facing some challenging mid-terms. So that gets in his way. But committing real time to address issues is probably the skill he'll need to acquire.

I guess the "mess" is more than just the boy. His buddies (all from a smaller troop of older scouts who were absorbed by the large troop of younger scouts) have a few gripes. I suspect some sour grapes have been squeezed for a while. The ASM is going to talk to the SM and CC.

Museums aren't nearly as fun as scouters. When I was passing through TX last spring, I opted to for barbecue with someone on this forum instead. Even the side of chili was spicier than any scout exhibit I've ever seen, but the conversation was truly a priceless gem. The ranch is the one place where you'll have the highest concentration of scouters from everywhere ... More gems on the floor of the exhibit hall! Absolutely any museum worth its salt should share/rotate exhibits.

So, tonight's crew meeting got derailed. One of my venturers had a suspended Life BoR at his troop last week because, when tested, he couldn't tie a bowline, didn't have complete documentation of his service hours or a good explanation of what he did in his PoR. So they basically told him to come back better organized and demonstrate his skills by tying that one knot. Well he came back this week. The ASM asked him if he was ready. He calmly said, "Yes." Then went to meet with the board. I went off to prepare the crew meeting. A whipstich later, the scout comes into our meeting saying "They failed me again!" Well, actually, he told the committee that they went beyond the bounds of the board by testing scouts, and said he would not tie a knot because it was not relevant to this rank or to the purposes of the board. Then one of the committee told the boy he was immature, and would never be an Eagle scout. (I suspect the guy did not mean to be that harsh, but he is an Eagle and a little high-minded.) The boy said he doesn't want to earn Eagle in the troop anymore. I told him he could advance in my unit, but I wouldn't bother our board with a Life scout who can't demonstrate the skills. He said, "I would do any of those requirements for you. I just don't respect those adults anymore." What a mess.