John-in-KC

FScouter, Do not disagree on who can sign. Was merely stating what some units are doing to manage the methods of Scouting...

Packsaddle, Yippeee!!!! Hooray!!! Happy Dance!!! OK, here is what the National Website says as regards Scout Spirit: (Once again we are at the Rank Advancement and the Board of Review Process: Frequently Asked Questions page) http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/mbc/rank.html Question: Rank advancement requires a Scout to demonstrate Scout spirit. How is Scout spirit defined and determined? Answer: Scout spirit applies to how a Scout lives and conducts his daily life. He shows Scout spirit by being a role model to his peers, living by the Scout Oath and Law. The concept of Scout spirit is not based on how many Scouting events or outings a Scout attends, but rather by how he helps bring out the best in others as a reflection of his own character and attitude in his daily life. Key words: not based on Scouting events or outings... ...IN HIS DAILY LIFE (emphasis added). It goes back to that wonderful teaching point of Wood Badge (no, not feedback )... USE ALL YOUR RESOURCES. This young man did. Please tell him you've at least one online friend who is very proud of him and knows he will be a great Eagle Scout! Hope this helps you help him.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Fscouter, In my neck of the woods, many units designate either an ASM or a Committeeman to serve as "Life to Eagle Coordinator". He or she is a person who is willing to learn all the rocks and shoals of the process, and to provide mentorship to the Scout on the nuts and bolts. The SM gets the big things, the L--->E coordinator helps with the detail work.

Gunny, Ready on the Left! Ready on the Right! The firing line is no longer clear! Firers: Breathe, relax, aim and squeeze, Commence Firing! Remember all those "check-a-blocks" in my thread? You've hit a bunch of them, and helped the Council get Quality Council. What did they do for you??? Truth be told, the only gap I know of in your MILITARY adn LIFE EXPERIENCE training regimen was "ages and stages" for youth. As a Gunny, you're used to 18-21 year olds, with 22 year old LTs who act like 18 year olds, ... Dialing back to the point where you are working with young minds who have lots of discoveries to make is a significant learning point. (Granted, I don't know how big a family you are Dad and Uncle to!) Beyond that, being able to set aside the Drill Manual (it'll always be FM 22-5 for me) and using a limited amount of drill to get tasks done is perhaps the most important training point you need to undertake. B-P was a Cavalryman, he had specific views of imposing the parade ground upon these young men in the Grand Game. I haven't taken OLS yet, and I got my Scouter's training award several years ago. I think you know how to teach others to sleep, eat and operate "in the cold, in the dark, in the wet" (to quote a corps arty commander of mine). When it's time, take WB not for the leadership fundamentals (you first saw them when you went to school to be a Buck Sergeant), but for the friendship and the network of others. You're like two friends of mine: She's a Captain (USN-line), he's a Chief Master Sergeant (zoomie). They concluded they needed all of half an hour overview to teach any module of WB. I suspect you are ready to take the kids to Philmont. I suspect you'd be a huge advantage to any Camps Lakefront staff as either the Director or a LF Commissioner. You didn't say so in your introduction, but were you Force Recon? Take the elephant 1 bite at a time my friend. You are more than ready to be either an ASM or a SM. To answer your questions: 1) Most troopers who've been an infantry squad leader or an artillery section chief, and most (line-ground) officers who've commanded a battery, have more than enough field experience to do the tasks we teach Boy Scouts in outdoor skills. I hope that gives you a good azimuth check! 2) I think you've hit one of BSA's problems: Fewer and fewer Americans can make our homes in the treeline. It takes time in the field doing the skills to be good at them, and then it takes time to learn to teach them (both of which I estimate you mastered a while ago). 3) Horse Manure. Just one experienced adult is "insurance liability defense" in action. Now, you may end up helping train a lot of adults who are far less comfortable in a bivouac (or a RON site on a long patrol) than you are, but we need to bring them along too. I'll PM you.

Do you really want this? Corfam shoes (artificial leather) do a very nice job. Superior leather, little grain! What you do when you spitshine is fill all the pores and pockmarks in the leather. In fact, with very high quality leathers a buff shine may give you a 95% solution. I've always used Kiwi black. I typically use a linen handkerchief. I'm only on my 3d spitshine rag since I joined ROTC in 1974. I used to hand wash it once a year. Short version of what your doing is hand-rubbing the leather until you are polishing polish. I've never needed to heat my polish, usually a light press into the polish gets enough oil on my shine rag.

Packsaddle, Pardon me, but: Horse Manure. The labor pool the Scout needs is people with the right skills to get the project done. (Edit: If teaching a skill with minimal effort to get the job done can be integrated to the project, that's a good thing. That said, it sounds like this Scout knew his project required at least some skillsets and interests beyond the level of "reasonable training to the task")Obstinacy in insisting the Troop be the labor pool absolutely fails any common sense test known to man. Are we teaching these young men leadership, or are we teaching them our way or the highway? My Eagle is a barbershop singer. He sings in an area chorus. His ELSP was to coordinate visits of quartets to an area teaching hospital pediatrics service (this isn't our area childrens' hospital, it doesn't get the whizbang resources they do), and two VA regional medical centers. The lasting gift was a CD he filmed and produced. The Barbershop Harmony Society waived all mechanical licenses for the songs the chorus performed. There was one other Eagle Scout in his entire labor pool: The man is 70+. Call the District Advancement Chair. Visit with him on scope and nature of work performed. Get his input and feedback. Tell your Scoutmaster to get off his high horse and sign off. If he doesn't or won't, tell the SM you've already called the District Advancement Chair for Eagle appeal procedures. Then, hand back your portfolio. You don't need to be involved in a Troop with a SM and Committee this obstinate. Then help the kid find a Troop where they'll take what he's done and get to closure. Sure sounds to me like he's met every expectation Beavah described in his post.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Whoaaaaaa. Are we on the front-end or the back-end of this? The Scoutmaster has the obligation, IMO, to make sure an ELSP will meet the parameters of the District Advancement Committee. That's a front-end responsibility. Part of that is seeing how the Eagle Candidate will lead others (be they developing individual web pages or helping set bricks). On the back-end, the Scoutmaster is making sure the Eagle Candidate did the work, and he should be actively mentoring that the candidate extracts all the lessons he can. As to scope of the project: Around here 100 man-hours actual project time seems to be the low number. With front-end and back-end work, that means a project of around 150-200MH total. If you approved it on the front end, why would you revisit it on the back end? Did the Candidate lead others in doing the work, or did he not?

Eamonn has shared stories of OJ. GWD has shared stories of her son, a camp staffer. I've shared a few of my own Eagle. Dan just shared that his boy has crossed into adulthood. Looking back on their trails, what have you seen?(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Gern, From so-ill's description, I think we're talking about someone who is already near the musculature and bulk needed to be a nose guard at Nebraska or OU! Probably very lean, but very muscled. I had a young Sergeant in my battery many years ago; he was all-Army wrestler. He also was, by the rules of the moment (before we measured body fat percentage), overweight by 35 pounds. To get him to his weight meant we had to destroy the athleticism of his body. Fortunately, my battalion commander was one of the smart ones, he was ready to fall on his sword to the Division CG for this young man. Goes back to one of the old adages: Bad news does not improve with age...

There are moments where I just love drive-by questions...

So-ill, Welcome home! I'm sorry your son was sent home. If you feed him into a Council contingent crew for 08 or 09, have the Council program director get in touch with the PSR Program Director during the off-season. Comments from my post of June 26: "There is a comment accompnaying the chart: "Discussion in advance with Philmont regarding any exception to the weight limit for persons under 21 years of age is required, whether it is over or under."" Do that months before season. Someone is in charge of the Philmont medical service; between him/her, the Director of Philmont, and the PD, there's a decisionmaker who has authority to set aside the rules. "On site, you are hitting seasonal docs, nurses, and med students (snip). They have guidelines and mandates. They don't get to go "outside the box," SFAIU. Everyone gets a medical re-check; that includes both Treks and PTC. The doc has a protocol to follow. He's not given discretion to waive the protocol. He did exactly as he was paid to do. Contact Philmont very early on next time!

Gonzo, The working docs and nurses in the military medical system are good people. The fact of the matter is the Administration, in the FY06, 07, and 08 budgets, has tried to reduce funding for the Veteran's Administration health care system and the Military Medical Departments. Only Congress has helped them, and they not enough. To be honest, the Medical Departments right now need an open appropriation. Anything less is anathema to this Veteran.

What CalicoPenn said!!!

If I were having lunch with that DE, or his SE, my comment would be one, and only one: "Enthusiastic youth staff, knowledgable area heads, a schedule built to keep the youth excited, first rate facilities: When you have those four items, we'll send a contingent back to give you a try. When do you want to give me and other area Scoutmasters a tour?" Both of our Council Reservations (H Roe Bartle and Theodore Naish) sell out year to year. Why? See the above. Lisa gave good words as well!!!

What in the devil are you talking about? In my seven years as a Scouter, I've encountered neither a "no confidence" nor a "no competence" board. Are we talking youth or adults? If we are talking youth, the Committee may hold a Board of Review and require a Scouts' presence. This is especially so if the young man is not advancing, or if there are "gut-check" issues with his honoring the Citizenship Aim and the Ideals Method (Oath, Law, Motto, Slogan). If either case, I'd be talking with the SM before convening the board, as the Committee is approaching entering the program. If we are talking adults, Scoutldr gave you the short answer: Adults are vetted by the Chartered Partner. Once in place, the Committee Chairman can withdraw portfolios from Members of the Committee, but cannot remove them from the Committee. The CC and the SM are specifically recruited and removed by the Executive Officer and/or the Chartered Organization Representative. Other adults can influence those two individuals, but they do not have a vote! Have you talked to your Unit Commissioner, District Commissioner, or COR about whatever the issue is?(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Beavah wrote: A pox upon both their houses. We need an "American Party". Amen. I do not disagree with the National Strategy of the Bush Administration. I do not disagree with the operational art used by General Petraeus and his predecessors. I DISAGREE WITH A GUT CHECK that we have enough forces in being to accomplish the mission. Folks, we have 6+ divisions in country as we speak. The active Army only has 10 divisions. We've generously used the Guard and Reserve since 9/11, some commands are popping up on statutory limits of service. When we changed to the 15 month in-theater policy, we drained the force basis to do it. The Army and the Marines are borrowing manpower from the Navy and Air Force to meet manpower requirements. Today a Major was indicted for embezzling/receiving bribes worth $10 million. Selfless Service (FM 1-100, The Army) anyone? What about shared sacrifice by the rest of us? Don't tell me $3 a gallon gas is our sacrifice. Our young heroes, the privates and Sergeants and Lieutenants and Captains, are being well and truly dis-served by the Senior Leadership (their generals), the Most Senior Leadership (National Command Authority... President and SECDEF) and the Congress. Walter Reed, anyone? As Beavah said, a pox on all their houses. Post Scriptum: In 2002, I agreed with Rooster7 and OGE.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

This is a rant. This is only a rant. If this had been a rave, there'd be smiley faces throughout... Let's see, I'm 50 now. Since I went to college, I've been through Organizational Effectiveness, Management By Objectives, Management by Exception, Total Quality Management, Management by Wandering Around, Management by Delegation... Does any Scouter here really believe the Quality systems imposed on us are anything other than a pro forma check-a-block? We've got the bloody kids thinking Quality metrics are what matter (see the root thread for this!!!) Want to know something? I think we should be more concerned about: - How good are the theatrics of the Thespians on a Lodge C-Team? - How authentic is the dancing on the Dance Team? - When we talk to young men at their Life, Eagle and Palm Boards of Review, how many of them understand how the Scout Oath and Law transpires in their daily lives? - Can the Venturing Crews say "Gee, this sounds fun" and pull a HA (be it a band trip, a mission trip, or a Philmont trip) activity together with only some technical support from a Consultant? - Does the Council have more than enough volunteers who give of time and labor to help maintain the properties beyond what the Ranger staff can do? - Do the Cubs look at someone and beam a smile when they go through a participation ceremony on the B track at District Pinewood Derby? - Are the Scouters, unit serving, District, and Council, believing in their heart of hearts they are making a difference? If we take care of the program, the metrics will take care of themselves. This was a rant. This was only a rant. If this had been a rave, there would have been smiley faces throughout... PS: This is is in I&P malice aforethought; I wanted room for some more extreme language if need be.

What's your position in the Troop SM/ASM pool or Committee? There's always the option of laying the methods of Scouting on the table and asking: "How are we developing leaders when we do not let them make fundamental program decisions. We can always give them some limits and say go for it. Or is this a matter of "we know what's best for the children?" True story: When I was CC, the one of the young men had gone with the co-chartered Crew to Philmont. He wanted to do a Troop high adventure trip next year. Convinced enough boys that they came to the Committee and said "We want to do a HA." SM and I looked at each other and said "OK... let's start by you finding us some places which look rewarding." They eventually chose Packerd. Based on you've said, if the SM and Committe are hard over to go to HA base X, if there is another troop nearby, I'd be visiting with them and asking about how they do business...

Ma, Welcome to the Forums. There are many Packs who believe in KISMIF. There are Packs which are run for the egos of the CC and CM. Remember, while you have a son in the program, your first interest is his growth and development, your second interest is to the Pack, Troop or Crew as a whole. As Gunny said, be discerning when you look for a Troop for him. Look at how they apply the methods of Scouting; look at how the Committee supports the program. Make sure to take position specific training for Boy Scouting as your son approaches bridging.

Congratulations. Are you taking the family across the pond for the Baptism???

Gee, a Fox just sang... I used to be an OWL And a Good Old OWL too (hoot hoot) But now I've finished OWLing And I don't know what do do (hoot hoot) I'm growing old and feeble AND I CAN OWL NO MORE So I'm going to work my ticket if I can... Back to Gilwell, Happy Land, I'm going to work my ticket if I can!

LC, The Troop I serve as advancement coordinator encountered the same problem with youth leaders... including the SPL... in part because they, and their parents, did not understand the commitment to the position. One way to deal with this is to work with both your Adviser and your Professional Staff Adviser. Come up with some way of getting commitment from an Arrowman before they can be certified to candidacy for election. If the Arrowman is not yet of driving age, definitely include parental commitment. If the Arrowman is about to go to (or is at) college, include commitment to return to Council offices for LEC meetings. You need to discuss this with your Adviser, because you need the Chapter Advisers to do the same thing... since the Chapter Chiefs sit your LEC. The other part of this is to make LEC meetings a combination of work and fun. At most, an Arrowman holding office is 20 and months. Fun should be part of the mix. Have you thought of "dinner and a movie", bowling, or an Iron Chef competition at the Scout Camp kitchen? Is there a NA pow-wow in the area you can visit as part of an LEC day? Understand, though, that school comes first. If an LEC member has to take his ACT test, and the test day is LEC day, guess which trumps which? It should not be LEC trumping academic performance. Keep us informed, success stories help all!

Welcome to the Forums. It also matters what their roles in the Chapter and Lodge are and what their ambitions are. What are they? We ask questions as part of active reading and listening. Helps us define the problem. Scheduling. Seems to me now my Council isn't the only one which schedules competing activities on the same weekend. Youth as well as adults have to make choices. More than once I've been supposed to be 100 miles apart at two different Scout camps at once. Last time I checked, I was neither Harry Potter nor Solomon.

Janet, Welcome, in Friendship and Warmth! If you haven't heard these yet, I suspect you will by the time your your Bear has been to Camp Osceola for 3 or 4 seasons. Here is hoping your boys find Scouting fun enough to stick it out until they can be staffers. The pay isn't great, but the growth is!!! I'm from the Internationally Famous North Star District. You'll find other HOAC Scouters here as well Enjoy.

I also went OOC for my course. In my course, the SPL was the CD-designate for the next cycle and the Program Director. He has as much a vested interest as the CD in getting folks completed. Snail mail (certified letter, return receipt, restricted delivery) to your ticket counselor/troop guide (our TG took us all the way through the ticket process) is a good Plan B. Handwrite the letter, but get the point across: Feedback is a gift, and your feedback to him is he's asking for a response, but doesn't check messages to see that you have responded. Gently remind him communication is a two-way street. Fortunately, you are at +11 months into your ticket, you still have a fair bit of time for the coordination. I wouldn't dally though; making sure he contacts you is just a tad on the important side. If you use Gunny's or my advice and he doesn't respond, do what Gunny recommended: Kick it up a level.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)