John-in-KC

Ed, As we've discussed in other threads, the basic requirement for the youth is to present names and contact data for: - Parent(s) - Scouting Leader - Faith community leader - School community leader - Employer (if employed) - Two alternates How each Council chooses to check references seems to be local policy discretion. While Donomiser had to give his reference already, I can see a case where the EBOR does a live reference check with someone at the EBOR. It sure seems to be within the bounds of advancement policy...

I agree with moxieman. Elections are valid for 1 year. It's sad in this case, because I will bet at least one other Ordeal opportunity came and went since his election date. I agree with E on what CRW jr should do. At the adult level, I think I would visit with the Chapter Adviser, the Lodge Adviser, and the Professional Staff Adviser. Some of the error here belongs to us adults, not the Candidate. How much discretion is there in policy? Maybe none, but if you don't ask, you won't get... and I've noticed over the years the SE and the Professional Staff Adviser seem to be able to make a lot of things "happen."(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

I'm reworking this to answer Donomiser's questions. 1) You as SM are normally one of the references for an Eagle Candidate. If your District uses a "hands-on" method of interviewing the SM, vice correspondence, then yes, you can and should visit with the EBOR. 2) Is there a reason you do not want one of your ASMs being there during the EBOR? If there is, you need to visit about this with your CC and COR before the board convening date. 3) If the young man has a special relationship with one of your ASMs and wants him raher than you to introduce him, that's fine. I'd contact the District Guest and CC and say "While I fully endorse Camper Timmy's Eagle app, he has asked Mr Johnson introduce him to the Board. I will defer to Mr Johnson not only the introduction, but the reference on the Eagle application. Do know I give Camper Timmy my full loyalty and support, and will be around that evening if you wish to visit with me." This is an exception to my general belief that the SM should always introduce the Eagle Candidate, lest the EBOR see that as damnation by faint praise. In this case, the young man himself has asked for another Scouter to be given the honor.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

The year ahead of Eagle Son, the Pack had 18 Webelos II in two dens. The kids decided they wanted to stick together in joining a Troop. They visited all 1/2 dozen Troops operating in a 4 mile radius from the elementary school they called home 9-3 daily. NONE of the Troops wanted to absorb 18 kids at one fell swoop. Web DL was an Eagle Scout, Brotherhood, had earned several Cub training awards. He approached the VFW about starting a Troop. ... And so they did. A bit over 3 years later, he wanted to form a Venturing Crew. That is where I get my first piece of personal advice in forming a Troop... be prepared to stick it out for five years, until program succession is truly in place. Founding SM pushed another guy to be SM. I've seen the consequence Beavah described of sorta caring SM. Next thing I saw when we got there was a bunch of 2d and 1st Class Scouts trying to act like they were 14 going on 15 or 16. SECOND LESSON: Recruit some start-up older youth to be TGs, SPL, PLs, and so on. If necessary, sponsor them through Brownsea (NYLT these days). First couple of years we had good recruiting. Kids went back and served as Den Chiefs. Then we hit a class of recruits and parents which didn't understand "give back." Troops must, from Day 1, reach back to Packs if they want to survive. Automatic Feeder is a crock of excrement that stinks. It doesn't work. I was CC when another Troop, which also hadn't sent out enough Den Chiefs, folded. We merged their operation. Through my tenure as CC, the SM would not arm-twist kids into going out to Den Chief, or even J-staff day camp. This Spring, the Troop merged into a strong area Troop. LESSONS: - Good adults on both the Committee and the SM/ASM sides. Make sure they're trained with good outdoor skills and good indirect leadership skills. - LONG TERM COMMITMENT at the start-up. If you're not (all things being equal) planning to be there 5 years down the road, revisit why you want to start a unit. - Steady flow of youth in at the bottom. - Lots of room for growth as they hit 14-16 years old. You can retain youth, but you need to help them find Scouting opportunities matching their interests! YIS.

Grit, Welcome to the Forums. We can provide as many different environments and programs in Scout Camps as you'd like. Before we really get into flooding you with recommendations, do you have an idea of where you want to visit in the US? That will help us narrow our favorite camps to places which you might want to investigate! Also, I think it'd be a good idea if you contact your National Association, and have them contact the BSA International Division in Irving. There are resources to help you plan and coordinate a successful international trip! Happy Camping until we see you over here!

Jambo, It's NOT LISA AND BOB. Her name is Lisa. She is a member of the BobWhite patrol from Wood Badge. Hence, she has taken the board name of Lisabob. From everything I read from her here, she is a caring Scouter who works hard to improve the program in her Troop and District. I'd be honored to meet her in person at a Scouting event! As I recall, she's explained this to you before. To my fellow board members: Why am I having visions of Brianbuf????(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Welcome to the Forums. Beavah and I were writing almost simultaneously. He has much in his post worthy of careful and prayerful consideration. Allow me a moment of blunt speaking: Whether you decide to rebuild your existing Troop program or start a new Troop, expect to put in several years of dedicated service. You may even have the job beyond your own sons' time in the program! If I understood what you wrote, and can summarize it in a sentence: Your son (with you as a Scouter) is in a Troop which is just not delivering the promise of Scouting to its youth. You do not think the existing leadership will hand over the reins. Further, you do not have a second Troop in the town. You are contemplating opening a second Troop, one which will deliver the program and allow the young men to grow and develop. Those are the messages I intend to address. If those were not the messages you sent, please clarify. Let's start with basics: A new Troop needs: - 5 youth members. That's the floor to charter. - A Committee Chairman and at least two other Members of Committee. - A Scoutmaster. - A Chartered Partner who will live up to the tenets of the BSA Charter Agreemnt. If you have those, you have the potential to open up shop. I urgently recommend: - Scouter Training for all adults as you start this. Set a standard of commitment to the BSA training regimen for adult leaders: Fast Start, YP, Merit Badge Counselor, New Leader Essentials and either Scoutmaster Fundamentals or Troop Committee Challenge. Learn what right looks like, make "delivering the promise" be the touchstone for all Scouters. - Your proposed Chartered Partner commit to really fulfilling his side of the charter agreement: Facilities, leader approval, support! - Work with the District Committee to leverage the opportunities of the scheduled program: With Camporee, Klondike, and LT summer camp, you just reduced your own planning burden for outdoor activities to 9 months from 12. - Get with the Packs in the area: Send out a Den Chief as soon as you can. The best way to get boys for your Troop is to provide reachback program support to one or more Cub Packs. - Understand that in creating a start-up, you and your proposed CC are making a five year committment (my opinion) to a new Troop. I've seen the consequences in a start-up with the founding SM steps aside at the 3 year mark because "he thinks he can." You want good systems and good people in place before you move along. Others will discuss other things. I hope collectively we give you food for thought. YIS(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

CNY, Reread the guide. You're not limited to over 18. OVER 16 MAY DRIVE AND DRIVE OTHERS TO VENTURING EVENTS, subject to limitations of local law and the policy as evoked in the Guide. Is the issue access to wheels and seatbelts, or is the issue actually drivers for enough wheels and seatbelts?

ASM 59: I agree with you, but BSA Supply Corporation can and should have printed errata stickers for the unsold copies in all the Scout Shops and Distributors out there. It's another wonderful example of the world class service we get from Supply Corporation ... the folks who have us in the de la Renta Parlour Scouts uniform for 20 years now.

Bill, You also have the option of not certifying the young man for election to candidacy. I recommend you visit with both your CC and your Chapter Adviser. They can provide lots of help for you in this tough call.

Let's make sure we understand something: The OA Lodge of a Council is a program element of the COUNCIL: - The accountable officer is the Supreme Chief of the Fire. Who is that? The Council SCOUT EXECUTIVE. - The SE appoints a member of the Professional Service as the Staff Adviser. That is usually the Professional in charge of the Scout Reservation. - The Council Camping Committee of the Executive Board provides volunteer oversight. - A volunteer is appointed as Lodge Adviser. - Finally, a youth member is the President (Chief) of the Lodge. Chapters are not, and never have been, independent entities. They are organizational elements of the Lodge, and usually parallel the Council Districts. Any property acquired by the Lodge, is, in fact, property of the Local Council under its Charter from the National Council. Now, I entered Walika Lodge #228 in 1970. Most of the above was pretty darn clearly laid out in my 1965 (1969 reprinting) OA Handbook. The most significant change I know of since my Ordeal is that National ownership of OA moved from the National Camping Committee to the Boy Scout Division about the time young ladies were allowed into Exploring (now Venturing). Jambo, as Hermione would say in Harry Potter, you should go back and read Hogwarts: A History... just substitute various Scouting and OA documents for Hogwarts.

Most anything by CS Lewis. Anything to encourage in his hobbies. If I'd buy him stuff ahead of his reading level, it's here, because he'll want to put his nose in it and keep it there!

Randy, I see everything the Pack Trainer does as being PROGRAM IN NATURE, not support. The Chief Program Officer of a unit is the ___Master. It's his lane. We obviously will agree to disagree on this one, that's ok.

I do not do a uniform inspection. We share a bit about Faith. It's a touchstone to me. It's also the area I see young men having trouble with EBORs, so I want to know if the questions can be "hard-hitting" or "lobbers." We share a lot about the future, and how the future will change. What's Tom Peter's quote about "train and re-train?" I ask them to anticipate how many times they will have to re-invent their skills in the coming years. We share a bit about humor, and how it can cure the blues. I review Goals and Ambitions. Amazing how many folks need a grammar and spell checker! Then I ask them about the site for their EBOR, and if there is anyone special they want to sit it. To me, the EBOR is the "moment in the sun" for the young man; I will move Heaven and Earth to support him in it.

Eagle son staffed at Bear Family Resident Camp these past six weeks. Program was designed to have Bear Cub and adult partner doing something from the moment the cars parked to the moment everyone got in the car to leave. Closing activities began at 4PM on Saturdays and Mondays (F-S overnight, Sun-M overnight). Those who stayed got some high-energy program. Den Flag competitions, Den Yell competitions, and a special doo-dad for those who stayed to the end. I've seen other camps where program was designed to do good things Saturday morning just before departure. Yes, it's right to pre-pack some stuff Friday afternoon, but it's a two-way street: The Camp has to provide energy to the program to the very last, and Scouts and Scouters have to be willing to take advantage of the program. I like what FScouter said: Set new expectations. I would add: Apply them to the unit and to the camp.

NC, I understand your comment on training that matters. The way to fix that is to get people involved not only in unit service but also in district service, TRAINING. You will find many of us here have lamented boring, read from the book (hey I can do that at home) training. We all need a common framework to operate from. Training is the foundation of that framework, RT (and I'm an RT staffer, so it's important to me) provides program support training to prepare you for the coming months!

If in doubt, report. Your SE can then help guide you for the future.

Have you read G2SS recently? Venturers CAN DRIVE THEMSELVES. http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss12.html#a 4. The driver must be currently licensed and at least 18 years of age. Youth member exception: When traveling to and from an area, regional, or national Boy Scout activity or any Venturing event under the leadership of an adult (at least 21 years of age) tour leader, a youth member at least 16 years of age may be a driver, subject to the following conditions: Six months' driving experience as a licensed driver (time on a learner's permit or equivalent is not to be counted) No record of accidents or moving violations Parental permission granted to the leader, driver, and riders Boldface denotes National policy. Note the words: ANY VENTURING EVENT. That means crew/ship. These are older teens, this should be part of their planning. Is there a reason you let the Ship get to the 11th hour over a logisitic challenge? Are you going to leverage it? Now, if the issue is there aren't enough sets of usable wheels and seatbelts, is there someone with a van you can borrow? Pickup trucks with 2 belts aren't exactly an efficient way to transport folk.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

I agree with Lisa! At the same time, I believe it's meet, right and proper to visit with the Pastor and COR. Let them know you're going to be shopping the Webelos elsewhere. Let them know why. On the issues of how the parish and the units work (or don't), Lisa also had some good advice several months ago, in other threads. SERVICE to the church is the name of the game: - Help the Properties people with various projects. - Help the Social Services people with Scouting For Food (or Scouting for Coats... or ...) - Help the Worship people with Boy Scout ushers, especially at Scout Sunday! Beyond that, the best thing for you and the Troop is for the Committee Chairs, plus the COR, to visit with the Church Council, and ask, forthrightly, what issues need to be worked. Feedback is a gift ... but feedback comes from listening, and both people in a conversation have to open up, and then listen. I do hope you recruit that last DL for your Pack!!! (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Scoutldr wrote: The camp staff actually told us that their responsibility for the scouts ended at 5 pm Friday night. Whether they left camp or not was up to the SM and the staff didn't care and didn't want to know. I'd really hate to be the SE or Council President of that Council, should there ever be a lost child event after the camp "closed." On both of our Reservations, there is a "gates locked" time ... you need to be GONE when the staff locks the gates.

CA_Scouter, Not an easy process, I think you and your PLC did as well as can be expected. I have three specific comments: - You can suspend a Scout from active status in your unit, but a unit cannot remove him from BSA. A unit can refuse to re-charter a Scout for the following year, though. - When you suspend a Scout from activity, have the Advancement Coordinator update his records. Get a copy! If parents decide to transfer the Scout, you want to be able to update the gaining Scoutmaster on the bundle of joy he/she is getting! - The Council Scout Executive has the authority to remove a person from membership in the Boy Scouts of America.

Eagle Scout Congressman Ike Skelton (D-4th, MO) was just elevated to Honorary Chieftain in the Tribe of Mic-o-Say. He is certainly a solid citizen! Eagle Scout Congressman Sam Graves (R-6th, MO) is featured on the home page of the Pony Express Council BSA. He also is a solid citizen. I am quite cynical regarding most politicians. That said, I've learned there are some who are for the greater good. There are Scouters in Congress!

OGO, Most of what OGE said. My Scout Reservations, in conformance with state child endangerment laws, have ironclad departure policies. Leaving the reservation without signing out the kid, even by parents, can be the impetus for the Professional Service to notify the gendarmerie. Non-custodial parental kidnap is an area challenge, that's why they're hard over about signing off the property. Your unit can make the internal consequences for leaving without checking out with the Scoutmaster as mild or onerous as you want them. I would say, at the more onerous end, that you coordinate first with your District Advancement Chairman, so you get backup if you're going to slow down a Scout's advancement. The definition of Scout Spirit is "Live the Scout Oath and Law in your daily lives." Well, for a week, camp was their daily life. "A Scout is Helpful, Friendly, Courteous..." I think I'd have a Scoutmaster Conference as soon as possible. I think I'd talk with the CC, it's time for a "not yet" on advancement. I think I'd hold them accountable for their actions in leaving camp early at the Scoutmaster Conference. If these young men are not OA, I think I'd remove their names from next years' eligibility for candidacy. I think I'd have them come up with a Scoutmaster Assigned project to show some service and willingness to honor those points of the Scout Law. I think I'd have them police the entire Troop Camp at the next couple of unit campouts. BTW, all this assumes there was not a legitimate reason for them to leave early: HS pre-season athletic camp, band camp, family trip come to mind. Check the info that would go into the back-story!!!(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

First, you may have to prioritize: From Requirements, BSA 33215: 4. While a Life Scout, serve actively for a period of six months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility: Boy Scout troop. Patrol leader, assistant senior patrol leader, senior patrol leader, troop guide, Order of the Arrow troop representative, den chief, scribe, librarian, historian, quartermaster, junior assistant Scoutmaster, chaplain aide, or instructor. Varsity Scout team. Captain, cocaptain, program manager, squad leader, team secretary, Order of the Arrow team representative, librarian, quartermaster, chaplain aide, instructor, or den chief. Venturing crew/ship. President, vice president, secretary, treasurer, boatswain, boatswain's mate, yeoman, purser, or storekeeper. Life Scouts seeking Eagle must have a position of responsibility. Period. Troops are not granted options. As you noted in your post, for Star and Life, you have wiggle room. Again, a quote from Requirements: (or carry out a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership project to help the troop) Here are some examples, right here in the KC Metro: Organize a Troop service time trip to "Bikes 'n' Trikes 4 Tykes." They should be getting into serious rehab for the coming holiday season. How it helps the Troop? Service opportunity. Harvesters won't let you play at their warehouse, but "Organize a small Scouting For Food drive to assist "Insert Name Here" Church food pantry." Ditto. City Union Mission has its annual school supplies for kids in need going on right now. "Organize a school supplies collection." Since schools all over the KC metro open the 15th, how much agony is it to have everyone pick up an extra ream of notebook paper, some extra pencils, etc. Ditto Fall cleanup day for most churches and area non-profits will soon be here. Organize the Troops participation in it. Helps both Service hours and probably your own Chartered Partner. Heartland Presbyterian Center always has a project or two which Scouts can do. Give them a ring. Some Troops have "adopted a highway" for litter control. There's also "coordinate our service work on a workday" at Bartle or Naish! Ask your UC for ideas too.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Allow a clarification: 11-18 year old young men are doing many things for the very first time, including the responsibilities of tasks. I expect 90% of all young men to require teaching, mentoring, and support. That said, some, hopefully a very few, refuse to participate or do a bare minimum of their work with a maximum of grousing. As I said, in 11 years of youth membership and Scouter experience I've seen ONE SCOUT fail completely. I've only seen a couple be truly "at risk" of failure. Have I clarified my question?