John-in-KC

It seems to me this year has not been great for the US transportation grid. We've had a couple of IT network meltdowns in airline internal traffic management systems. Amtrak has two delays in the past 3 weeks that put the SW Chief 12 hours +late into Raton. Praise the Good Lord we've not had another attack of 9/11 proportions, and that even that attack came after the summer vacation season. How do the HA bases deal with delay not of the Treks' own making? Just bump them back a day? Too bad, so sad? When I look at Philmont, it sure seems to me there's not exactly a lot of slack capacity in their Trek allocation...

Just one small comment: If you take Amtrak from Albuquerque to Raton, yes, Philmont picks you up. There will be a transportation charge for that pickup. There's an unofficial Amtrak delay website (www.amtrakdelays.com)which histogram plots the delay at any given station on the line. Albuquerque is ABQ, Raton is RAT for station codes. Train 4, the EB Southwest Chief, has been fairly reliable, with only two delays of over an hour. Neither of those were over an hour and a half. On your backhaul, Train 3 is more problematic, It has been over 12 hours late twice in the past three weeks. OF NOTE for transportation planning/deciding: This summers timetable has Train 4 departing Albuquerque at 1240PM and arriving Raton at 517PM. You may be on a hard push to get through tent assignment medical recheck, shakedown, dinner, chapel and campfire. In fact, I'd bet something would fall out. Call and ask Philmont about how they handle.

Gunny, I didn't have enough uniforms to get me all the way through Scout Camp for my first several years. I know members of my Council Executive Board who go to camp for a full session: They don't wear BSA shorts every day. For that matter, one of our Reservation Rangers routinely wears Carhartt pants and work boots... he's out maintaining property. Now, the card-carriers of the UP will rail, but the various outfitters (REI, Cabelas, Bass Pro) have green shorts that are a 90% solution, particularly when you need a lot of them in a hurry. Uniform is a METHOD of Scouting, not a tool of military command, as we are both used to. Do your best, keep striving, and enjoy the Scouting journey!

Gunny, To be honest, much of what you learned through the various Corps schools (from the time you were a Corporal) will have you in good stead. You've had leadership psych at multiple levels. I assume you were a platoon sergeant along the way; you've learned overwatch of 1st line leaders and the importance of having their records straight. Since you are an ASM, here's the roadmap I would take (and re-take; it's worth it to cover old ground now and again): Youth Protection for Adults (Cub and Boy Scouting) (There is different YP for Venturing) Fast Start for Boy Scouts BSA New Leader Essentials BSA Scoutmaster Fundamentals BSA Outdoor Leadership for Scoutmasters Sitting in with your Troop Committee on Troop Committee Challenge is a good thing, too. Helps you understand how the support side works. Beyond that, it depends on your interests: Are you aquatics oriented? Then, take BSA Lifeguard. It combines the hands-on skills of aquatics lifesaving with the working knowledge of Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat. Did you like Mountaineering? Then go for Climb On Safely, and the various tower and COPE certifications. Finally, there are two elements of training we don't talk about much: Having FUN and having a passion to raise up young men (Venturing specific: men and women). Which Council are you in, since I'm over here in Metro KC? John

Hunt, I agree with both your comments. Those are where adult participation jumps from "supporting youth" to "running youth." Beavah, Only up to a point on your last. Our Chartered Partner has an alarm system on their facility, which our units use. As I understand from our IH, the issue of who may be given a passcode to the alarm is in the contract. According to him, no minors. How do we deal with that? The Chartered Partner has well and truly met their obligation of appropriate meeting space. Our youth, particularly the Quartermasters, have had the combination to the Trailer. The first thing the new QMs did was change the combination. (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Gunny, I'll point you to the BSA Uniform and Insignia Guide, BSA Supply No. 33066. It's a buy item, as opposed to a free or bin item. The PC terms are Field Uniform (many local Councils and units use Class A as common usage) and Activity Uniform (Class B): The essential elements of the Field/A uniform: Scout Socks BSA Pants/shorts BSA Belt BSA shirt with patches correctly placed BSA Neckerchief/Slide (slide is always a users choice item) BSA Hat/Cap Above the essential elements come items such as OA sashes, MB sashes, items the local Council mandates (OA Coup thongs, other Honor society coup thongs), and/or dead berets, dead overseas caps... The essential elements of the Activity/B uniform: Scout Socks BSA Pants/shorts BSA Belt Appropriate shirt (anything from the BSA Polo to a staff T-shirt to a Troop T-shirt) Appropriate headgear for the activity (a baseball cap doesn't make sense on a 20 mile bike ride... a helmet meeting Snell/ANSI standards is called for) I'll leave my usual rantings about quality/fit/finish of uniform articles for another thread. I hope this gives you a 1/world understanding. YIS.

Have an area seamstress talk with you about fabrics. There are higher quality, heavier weight fabrics out there. Usually, it will mean finding someplace a bit beyond the Cloth World/Jo-Ann level of fabric and pattern shops. My Eagle's mother was a home sewer and quilter. Amazing what guys learn about fabric, buying in support of their wives at times...

Fellow Wood Badgers, Think for a moment about your District Roundtable. Does it deliver what you need to deliver the promise to your Scouts? Whether your answer is yes or no, let's take it to the open-ended questions: - Why/Why not? - What's the one chnage which would give the most help? TIA(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Just remember... There's a Jayhawk in every Tiger's... belly. Consumed.

Uhhh, the horse may not be dead, but we've beaten it as we plowed this ground already: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=159851 Do we really need to finish killing this horse in the Cub Scout Forum?

http://www.ku.edu/about/traditions/songs/rockchalk.mp3 I'm in a funny family. Eagle tubist son is contemplating Marching Mizzou!!! We've done two campus visits; one included the Atmospheric Sciences program and both included time with the Bands programs. His mother is K-State. My late uncle is KU and KU Med (Class of 41) and my late aunt was KU. I of course am Cal-Santa Barbara. How's that for a threadjacking? On a serious note, I hope so-ill provides us some feedback on the Scout at PSR!!!

..."Well I don't have time for THAT...I WORK full time!" My response to those folk: "Excuse me. I don't have a day job and profession?" That sends them away red-faced. A few call back a few days later, sign up, and do a good job. Of the rest, I'm beginning to think one issue of retention is parents not willing to commit to bringing Cubs or Boys to meetings!!

Huh? Our Troop has had a patch since Year 1. It's designed to be sewn onto a neckerchief. My youth Troop (1968-73 or so) had a custom neckerchief. Saved the families big bucks over what National wanted for one of those printed neckers. When you consider the custom neckers so many Troops have, there's fair amount of custom sewing out there in support of the Program.

After you (the bride), the first person is the Committee Chair. Some lessons from my time on the Troop Committee: 1) Major program events (elections are such) get an announcement at TC. 2) Parental support of the Scout before he's certified for candidacy is good to have. It's hard to trump "Mr and Mrs Jones committed to supporting Johnny in that POR." 3) A Scoutmaster conference (non-advancement) to look the Scout in the eye and ask him if he's ready to do the POR is good to have. 4) Adult Leader Applications are a good thing to have handy ("Gee, I didn't know you wanted to help. Here's an app. Let's schedule you for Youth Protection Training, MB Counselor Training, New Leader Essentials training, Scoutmaster Specific Training, and Outdoor Leadership for Scoutmasters training.") This is the opposite tack from "it's only an hour a week" and it's designed to catch those Helicopter Parents and those who think BSA means Baby Sitters of America. 5) I suspect most of us here would tell your husband: Thank you for giving your heart, your time, and your money to these kids.

Last night, on the home PC, I did not get the virus, but did get the opportunity to download simplified Chinese. The front end at the office is strong enough, apparently.

Even the Fast Start video, the last time I looked at it, doesn't show the Committee, at Committee meeting, in uniform. Committee folks attending Program events (troop meetings, camps, etc) should be in appropriate attire for the event (a 20 mile bicycle ride calls for some form of Class B uniform; a COH calls for Class A). A business meeting, by and large away from the youth (possible exception being the SPL), I suspect most will be fortunate to have changed from work clothes.

I'm 29 years + in having a vote in this. I do have an opinion. I think it goes with where I see the Outdoor Method of Scouting being a tad weakened over time. I understand why the Order was shifted from the National Camping Committee to the Boy Scout Division. I will bet a dollar to a donut that's when the change in terms occurred. When I was a Scout, the emphasis was on camping, long term and short term. I love both my Scout CAMPS... but they are CAMPS. That means tents, platforms and (ack) dining halls. Enough from me.

Brotherhood WWW, Last year I had a chance to meet the young man who was the Central Region Chief. These are young men who care, and if you look at the National Advisory team, you will find many former Regional and National Chiefs. I would hope if they got word that the St Louis Area Council was off the Reservation in policy (no pun intended), there'd be some words to the SE.

I stand by my major comment after this is done. Sadly, MarkS has a "warm body" Chartered Partner (read PTA). They probably will not care that their Troop is not ABLE to get the most from a superior program such as the Order. The Scout... yes, see the Lodge Advisers Guide and the Elections Guide. The Adult Selection Procedures are completely out of line with current National policy. Ditto the Scoutmaster having a veto. His time to intervene is when he certifies the Eligible list. At the same time, yes, the local Lodge is allowed By-Laws, but they must be approved by the Supreme Chief of the Fire (SE). Local by-laws are NOT to contradict National policy. Unlike a Chartered Partner licensing the Scouting Program, the OA as I understand it is a Nationally managed organization. The hierarchy runs from the Arrowman, through his Chapter Chief and Lodge Chief, then through the Section Chief, until you finally reach the Region Chiefs and the National Chief... and all these fine young men are short their 21st birthday. ICS, John

Venivedi, I also appreciate that we've approached this with concern for the young men first. I actually do not think we're very far apart in this discussion. From where I sit, 80-90% of our youth will make never even be a challenge: We'll talk to them on the front end, give them resources, and they'll be coming back to us either asking technical questions or bursting with pride at a task done well as part of doing their POR. The next 5-15% (up to the 95th percentile) will take a little extra mentoring, and may require some encouragement and resources. The Committee member overseeing the Scouts' activity may need to be actively involved in teaching and supporting to get the task done. That's OK. Many of the things we challenge Scouts to do, be it maintain the tentage and inspect the patrol boxes, to keep the primary attendance records and collate advancement, to playing "Mess Call"... well, that's the first time they've ever done it. There'll be lots of stumbling. Another 3% or so are going to need the heavy hand of a youth or adult on them to get it done. It's that last 2%. They are the ones who start off on the wrong track, and will not switch over. Certainly, as you state, the Advancement SM Conference is waaaayyy too late in the day to say "this is not working." They've been absent time and again. If they are attending, their work is just not done. They are square pegs being forced in round holes. There are ways to deal with them. I think the most effective option is to revisit their task against their personal likes and dislikes. A kid who can't carry a tune in a bucket is the wrong one for Bugler. A Scout who has divorced parents, whose non-Scouting parent won't let him attend OA Chatper meetings, is the wrong one for OATR. It's our job, as Scouters, to help the SPL/ASPL find the right fit. Sometimes, that won't happen til the second try. Sometimes, there are external factors too. Kids parents enter divorce. Non-Scouting parent doesn't have him Troop night, and doesn't care for Scouting. The kids needs support now more than ever. We're the ones who can help make things happen. As I said above, at the end of the day, 98% + will get sign-offs with varying amounts of support. It's that last 2%.

Not sure if this is a prank or part of the curriculum... Each day, starting with the first evening, the Staff Patrol Flag went through SM/SPL inspection, with limericks to boot. That means there were 3 inspections before it was accepted. Now was that to set the standard for us, or for them to have some fun with a part of the program? I dunno.

Welcome to the Forums! Phimont Scout Ranch has its own Class III Physical Examination form. It's SIX PAGES LONG. As I recall, about 2/3 of one of the pages is a height/weight chart. Even at base camp, you're a tad above 6000 feet up. They make a deal about not permitting folks to go on the trail who don't meet standards, be it expeditions or the training center. Over and above that, there is an absolute upper limit on weight, based on the capability of emergency evacuation equipment. That's not a fitness/cardiovascular issue, that's a "if he breaks his leg, can we evacuate him?" issue. It is 295lbs. The basic chart is here, in addition to being on the physical exam form: http://www.scouting.org/philmont/visitors/planning/weight.html There is a comment accompnaying the chart: "Discussion in advance with Philmont regarding any exception to the weight limit for persons under 21 years of age is required, whether it is over or under." In the case of this particular young man, the Expedition Leader should have been talking with your Council Program Director and the PSR program director (a BSA National Staff Professional) weeks ago. At that time, accommodation might have been possible. On site, you are hitting seasonal docs, nurses, and med students from the University of Kansas Medical Center (that's a story in itself involving Mr Phillips). They have guidelines and mandates. They don't get to go "outside the box," SFAIU. Everyone gets a medical re-check; that includes both Treks and PTC. Here is a quote from another page of the BSA Philmont sub-site: "Important: the rules for participation are the same for everyone without regard to age, gender, ethnicity, or special needs. Any participant arriving at Philmont who does not meet the physical requirementsor any person coming off the trail because they cannot physically "make it"must return home at their own expense." http://www.scouting.org/philmont/visitors/planning/advisory.html If he's not the expedition key adult, I'd have your SM or CC contact the Council Office and talk to the Program Director.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Yes, but I also know Professionals who: - Have earned Arrow of Light as a youth... - Are Eagle Scouts - Have earned their Religious Award... - Are/have been Scoutmasters in their own home Troops... I understand both the clean and the "full chest" versions of the story. Are we saying Professionals should not wear what they have legitimately earned?

Mark, Have your Chartered Organization Representative contact the Scout Executive (Supreme Chief of the Fire). Make sure the COR is addressing this as a Unit Ownership Issue. So far as I know, there is nothing in the Charter Agreement which restricts Chartered Partners, and the units they charter, from selecting the LT camp they wish to use. Ask: - What is the National Boy Scouting Division policy authorizing this? - What is the Council Executive Board and Camping Committee policy authorizing this? - Ask for a copy of the Lodge Minutes authorizing this. This is wrong. Flat Dab Wrong. You will need to build a coalition of Chartered Partners to fight this, but this is meet, right and proper to fight. Thanks for the first backstory. I think the deeper backstory is worth getting. Personally, I think this policy is worth fighting.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Venividi, I think much may depend on leadership and POR pre-screening. Positions of responsibility are, if anything, a three way street (Yogi Berra, there's one for you). The SM has a duty to mentorship and development. The SPL and ASPLs have duties to task assignment and supervision. The Scout has the duty to fulfill the tasks of his POR! Finally, the parents have a duty to support the Scout in accepting and fulfilling a POR. What I personally despise is what OGE called the token POR, or the "warm body" POR. Your name in a slot fulfills the requirement. Baloney. Does it work that way in our day jobs? No. Should we give the youth an expectation that they can coast in their assignment? No. Yet I've seen it, more than once. I want all young men to succeed, but I also want tools in the box when the few fail: I want to be able to look the young man in the eye and ask "Do you, in your heart and mind, believe you met your responsibilities as XXX? How so?" I want him to answer yes. Sadly, some will no. I want also, though, when I report to a Committee, "Billy will not advance for some months, we agreed he is still not meeting his POR," to be backed up by the CC when BabySitters of America parents Mr and Mrs Jumpback say "but, but, but..." Your turn...(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)