John-in-KC

Acco, OK, I won't shoot the messenger. Someone, though, needs to shoot the instructor for that Scout Spirit comment.

SCOUTING COMPETES WITH ... Soccer Basketball Baseball Football Nintendo Swimming Tae Kwon Do Judo Karate Music for a parents, and their boys, attention. If the advancement plan had remained where it was when I was a youth member in the late 60s/early 70s, Boy Scouting as we know it would be well nigh dead. The advancement plan is designed to move a young man along the trail and give him a view of the valley, the river, and the Eagle's nest when he makes Life. Having experienced the 1965 edition advancement plan (1 ER MB for Star, 5 for Life), I like the current plan. As for signalling, so what, who cares? The important element in youth education is the Scouts ability to communicate his thoughts. When a really good flagman was almost competitive with a Teletype machine, that was one thing ... and that lasted into the 60s. These days, bandwidth available allows me to send elaborate artwork in real time from A--->B. I agree that T-2-1 has been weakened in terms of basic outdoor skills. I also honestly believe removing Cooking from the Eagle list was a major mistake of the National Advancement Committee. I'm divorced; the fact I can cook for myself, vice paying for pre-packaged meals or doing the restaurant allows my food dollar to go much farther. I honestly rate it as an essential skill of manhood, which for the most part seems to be one of the criteria for selecting MBs on the Eagle list. We won't even talk about the Parlour Scouts de la Renta uniform.

On my ME machine... All of a sudden, I get a Windows warning box to the words of "Do you want to execute scripts?" This is the only site where that happens. On son's Mac, using Firefox... I get the header quickly, but it takes 45 seconds (I timed it) for the topic list or a thread itself to populate.

Beavah, No more than Cubs marching in formation at daycamp singing a bawdy Jody...

I've heard singing on the trail... God Bless my Underwear... Froggy... Oh, do you best your best the motto of a CUB SCOUT... Anything that isn't 4/4 and 120 beats to the minute (standard marching cadence).

Mr Weiss, my first Scoutmaster, at my first Scoutmaster Conference, showed me how to turn my collar under. That was 1968. I still do it. IMO, it helps the de la Renta Parlour Scouts shirt!

I have my youth Neckerchief still. It was made by the Moms of the Troop, and was made well. I have my WB neckerchief. It reminds me I've only just begun working my Ticket. The things Supply Corporation sells the youth? Don't get me started on quality, fit, and finish. Yes, the Eagle standard silk necker is good... at the cost it bloody well better be!

Gunny, I can do minor miracles with Corps Battle Simulation, and can even ensure it integrates with TACSIM. Enough years of doing TACFIRE and CBS mean ... I ABHOR SOFTWARE HYPE All those unkind camp pranks folks have discussed in other threads here? They're reserved for IT weenies who don't deliver...

Venivedi, I hope you find it; this is starting to get entirely too curlicued for me. Responsibility should be linear... assign, train, mentor, evaluate performance, more mentoring, completion. What we seem to be describing now feels to me like circular logic.

http://www.scouting.org/nav/myscouting.jsp Until yesterday, the ad said "Coming late spring 2007" Today it reads "Coming summer 2007" Is the BSA IT department composed of castoffs from various Microsoft aborted launches??? Along the side the page has a url: Scoutnet.Scouting.org/myscouting It delivers a 404 error. Rolling a new service out isn't easy, but you don't advertise if you cannot make the deadline. Is that really that tough for folks to understand these days?

I'm bringing this forward from Beavah's Denial of Advancement thread, because this is a more logical place for Venivedi, others, and I to discuss this.... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Venivedi wrote: Hunt, I am with you on BOR decisions that a boy is not yet ready for advancement should not be common. Much better for SM/ASM to continue to work with a scout until the scout has earned the rank, and then recommend them for BOR. I think right now that things are in a state of flux/confusion as a result of the memo from national stating that time in rank fulfills the POR requirement. While searching the net for a copy of that memo/letter, I found the following on the Clinton Valley Council web site, which indicates that, while scouts are to be given credit for time in POR whether they have done or learned anything or not, national expects that the scout may not pass his BOR if his service was unsatisfactory. I find this rather confusing, as it seems to move decisions from SM/ASM (where mentorship occurs), to BOR, which is composed of folks who are further removed from the scout. Here is the text, and also a link to the source: The decision also said, The issue of whether their service is satisfactory is resolved at the local board of review for that rank. Therefore, a boy who was in the position of Scribe for six months from Life to Eagle had fulfilled that requirement. That does not necessarily mean that he will pass his board of review, because if his service was not satisfactory, he could be turned down at the board of review. http://www.cvc-bsa.org/advancement/bsAdvancementFAQ.html#posResp The text is from the response to the FAQ titled "What can a Scoutmaster do if there is a Scout in his/her unit that is performing poorly in a position of responsibility or doesn't show up at all?" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RE: Denial of Advancement Posted: Tuesday, 7/3/2007: 12:52:44 PM Venivedi, HUH??? This goes directly against this FAQ on the National website: http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/mbc/rank.html "... However, unit leaders must ensure that he is fulfilling the obligations of his assigned leadership position. If he is not, then they should remove the Scout from that position." I'm going to double back to a POR thread, otherwise we're gonna hijack something Beavah meant for the good of the order!! Venivedi, To me this goes right back to our other conversations. Of course, we're not talking about 95% of the youth who come through our program, we're talking about that last 2-5%. If what you said is true, then the object of removal, sad as it may be is to definitively stop the tenure clock for advancement. That goes back to leadership and mentorship by the adults. If we want young men to succeed in the program, then we have to provide the resources, training, and support. Now, having seen your note from the CVC Council, I think I might ask their webmaster (or the page content owner) where they sourced their information. The information either has an audit trail or it was made up, either by interpretation or from whole cloth. There isn't another option.

Venivedi, HUH??? This goes directly against this FAQ on the National website: http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/mbc/rank.html "... However, unit leaders must ensure that he is fulfilling the obligations of his assigned leadership position. If he is not, then they should remove the Scout from that position." I'm going to double back to a POR thread, otherwise we're gonna hijack something Beavah meant for the good of the order!!

I'm in a Crew, and have held several different chartered positions. Most of the time, though, I'm Advancement Coordinator, and count myself more to Committee than to Program. What my DAC told me was: 1) Scouts can only march the trail to Eagle if they arrive in the Crew holding First Class. Scout--->1st Class must be done in a Troop. 2) Use Boy Scout Requirements for the advancement requirements at Star, Life, Eagle, and Palms. 3) Follow Advancement procedures for Boy Scout units. That implies all-adult BORs. This pretty much follows the following website resource from National: http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/32215/eligibility.html Note: Iitalics do not imply mandatory provisions here, it simply highlights the direct quote. "Any male Venturer who has achieved the First Class rank as a Boy Scout in a troop or Varsity Scout in a team may continue advancement toward the Star, Life, and Eagle Scout ranks up to his 18th birthday. "He must meet the requirements as prescribed in the official Boy Scout Handbook and the current Boy Scout Requirements book. The Venturer may fulfill leadership requirements by serving as president, vice president, secretary, or treasurer of his crew, or as boatswain, boatswain's mate, yeoman, purser, or storekeeper for his ship. "The Scoutmaster conference will be conducted by the Advisor or Skipper. As the Venturer meets requirements for the Star and Life ranks, a board of review will be conducted by the crew or ship committee. The Eagle board of review should follow the procedures established by the local council."

Ahhh, but I have, more than once. At least one Pack doing it was from a military installation; the Dads were all mid-career officers and senior NCOs. When I was walking with my campsite as a Commissioner last weekend, the kids begged for cadence calls... said their leaders did them all the time. As I said, Lieutenant General Sir Robert Baden-Powell, Lord Baden-Powell of Gilwell, himself Inspector General of His Majesty's Cavalry and Colonel of the 13th Hussars, told us Scouters of all generations very clearly... using military drill is the Scouter's tool of laziness. There are other and better ways to teach our Cubs and Scouts.

From the TM corporate site: Requirements: Windows 95/98/2000/ME/NT/XP/Vista, 800x600 screen resolution, and 20 MB Hard Drive space. No Mac. I'd be careful about internet related stuff. IT director at a place I know said "no java, no-how." Went and removed java related interfaces from PCs. There are work-related websites I visit which are java driven. They are now useless to me at the office. All it takes is an IT manager such as the B###### Operator from H###...

OGE, When I swam, lettering was 5 points: 1 for 3d, 2 for 2d, 3 for first place in any District meet. Coach didn't have a vote; it was a standard. Son is in the band. His letter is composed of four areas: Area 1: Attendance. 100%, very limited exemptions. Area 2: Education and community service: Perfect attendance at school marching band camp. Drum Major Consistent private study (yearly) Summer band camp Band Executive Council member TRI-M membership Squad/section leader in marching band Section leader for a majority of yearly concert performances Consistent performance in a community band Community service (playing at church, helping younger players, etc.) Complete either Area 3 or Area 4 (Music Performance) Area 3: Music Performance (3 points required) All-District Band(s) audition, or All-District Band(s) member 1 point for each solo/small ensemble performance of I, II, or III rating at District Music Festival Pit orchestra member (fall musical) Jazz band enrollment (counts for two if enrolled in Sym/Con Band; 0 if not.) Missouri All-State Band(s) audition Solo/ensemble performance of II or III rating at the MSHSAA State Music Festival Orchestra concert performance(s) (wind/percussion section) Music Theory enrollment College/University sponsored High School Honor Band member Area 4: Achieving All-State Band/Orchestra or a Division I rating in solos/ensembles demonstrates musical performance to standard So, I dispute that coaches have discretion. They set standards, just as Scouting does. The fundamental difference is athletics and band are not "whole person" oriented as Scouting is.

Troopmaster does provide an Advancement Report including a ScoutNet compatible floppy. Of course, floppies are becoming rarer, and a one shot use CD is not the cheapest way. My council IT person is a pedant, and rightly so: Memory sticks can be used internally, but not externally (as in my stick as a volunteer does not touch the Registrar's PC). It also provides a shopping list! I see the issue: Since Mom and Dad are Akela for much of Cub advancement, there needs to be some training and orientation of parents: When they finish Achievement Six or Elective 12, they need to email the Den Leader and CC you. I agree with Gunny about redundancy of the database. I'm also a tad paranoid in the information privacy era: All these databases have information that could affect parents and children alike. I'm beginning to think if I ever am a COR again, I will want the unit Treasurer and membership/advancement people to be bonded. May no Scout unit ever have a case of data piracy!

Beavah, I agree with your precept, but I believe advancement in Scouting is based on completing both tangible (skills, Merit Badges) and intangible (Scout Spirit) events, activities, or processes. It's not, respectfully, a gift... just as earning a letter isn't a gift. In either case, the advancement is always in one of three states: - In progress - Completed - Further down the trail (such as looking at Life when the Scout is First Class)

Gern's Crew will have a happier time than most, they are already acclimatized, just by their base altitude!! I also hope he's enjoying the trail!!

CNY, You say your son is going to be at camp. Scout Camp? Maybe it's time to call in a few markers with brother Scouters and ask the Commissioner Staff to BOR him...

I use the Boy Scout version, Troopmaster. It's very easy to use! The database is as good as the inputs given it! From reading your challenge, though, if I read you correctly, the challenge your Pack has is the discipline of getting the Den Leaders to turn in info. That's not a SW issue, that's a leader discipline issue. Will a new toy solve the discipline issue? Really? If it would not hurt the Cubs (and we know it will ), I'd say letting the DL see the hurt in a boys' face when he doesn't get that big new patch he knows he earned would be a mighty incentive... to never again delay getting the word up.

Fotoscout's last comment is absolutely spot on. I'm not Kudu, and I don't play him on TV, but I was reading Footsteps of the Founder last night. It's a compilation of key quotes from B-P. Particularly noteworthy were the comments about military drill being absolutely inappropriate for Scouts! I was out at our Council's Bear resident camp last weekend. I was a campsite commissioner, so the first program day I walked trail with my campsite ... to get them used to the ground. The Cubs begged for Jody calls. I gave them things to sing on the trail, not "count cadence, delayed cadence, count cadence, COUNT!" or "Sound Off!" How many Scouters have ever thought that cadence was designed as a tempering tool of army leaders, to help forge the raw steel of a hundred men into a fighting company of Infantry? Is that what you want for 8 and 9 year olds?

Having had a chance to sleep on this: There may not be a rule in ACP&P which says a Scout needs to bring his Handbook to his BOR. The handbook is, however, the closest thing to a "source document" we have for advancement. At Star, Life, and Eagle, of course we have the Scout copy of MB blue cards... but do we really want to see those one by one? The challenge is cross-talk and cross-communication. We should, as adults, be talking amongst ourselves. We should be setting for clear guidelines going into things like Boards of Review. This young man was surprised. That is a bad thing. We Scouters have a duty to set the young men up for success by clearly defining expectations. That means active listening between Program Officer and Committee. That means cross-communication between program and support sides. When I sat BOR chairman's seat, if I adjourned the board, all parties knew the reconvening time. That the Board failed to set a reconvene, is, imo, inexcusable.

"It took 2 months for me to get 3 committee members to show up at the same time and now I have to try and get them again a 2nd time to do this." 1) It seems to me any Unit Committee which is not able to furnish a BOR for 2 months because of availability needs more members. 2) BORs have lots of purposes, including helping the Committee Chair give feedback to the Program Officer, by getting input from the youth. It seems to me there's a need to add a couple of folk to the Ship Committee, in order to support the Advancement Method of Boy Scouting, and the Recognition Method of Venturing.

Venivedi, I think we have to divide up the pie a bit here. One situation you described involves ELECTED Scouts. If, in spite of mentoring and coaching, they are not doing the job, the SCOUTS have recourse: They get to learn the meaning of the term "impeachment." For the young man you suggested, you don't get to the six month point: Historian misses the first opportunity. MENTORING. Scout misses the second opportunity: MORE MENTORING. Third miss: It's time for an urgent SM conference with the boy, and phone call to parents. There may well be a backstory. The other part of the new info from the National Council is "Leaders must engage..." Maybe the family doesn't understand Scout needs access to the family camera on that weekend. Maybe Scout doesn't know how to use a camera. The other side of the coin is help the young man find resources so he can succeed. OTOH, there may not be a backstory, the Scout may never have had his feet held to the fire on a task before. The spirit of a shirker may lie within him. I'm not Kudu, nor do I play him on TV. That said, I re-read "Footsteps of the Founder" last night. Even B-P talks about shirkers. Both the Good Character and Good Citizenship Aims of Scouting push us to teaching the young man that doing what he is assigned to do is that important to the Troop as a whole. Maybe the better consequence than a Trumpish "you're fired" is a POR Scoutmaster Conference (well before the time of the advancement SM Conference) where Scout and Scoutmaster mutually agree: - Scout isn't doing the job. - Scout isn't a good fit to the job. - Scout would be a much better fit in some other job. - Scout accepts he is not getting credit for time in the first job. Your thoughts, good Sir?