John-in-KC

Beavah, You're a former Council Commissioner. You should have some contacts, somewhere. Can you find out the backstory on this? As to the process, I agree that mentorship is the name of the game here. This is part of the Adult Association Method in action. The process of overwatching the Troop youth leadership is fundamental to the basic job of the Scoutmaster, and has been for many years. This goes back in some ways to OGE's thread on token PORs. If you're going to set a task, have the youth fulfill the task! At a minimum, I think it not unreasonable that an OATR will go to Chapter meetings and bring back the info for the Troop... I think it not unreasonable that a Bugler plays bugle calls ... perhaps not well (I've heard young trumpeters in my day)... I think it not unreasonable that a Scribe collate advancement info from Scout handbooks so an Advancement Coordinator can post it to Troopmaster. If you don't need a Bugler, don't assign a Bugler. If your Troop does not participate in OA, don't assign an OATR. I think also part of the issue lies with a standard that says a "warm body" SCOUT slotted in a POR checks the advancement block. Does it? Really? Or are we, as I submit, shortchanging the young man if we don't give him something to do with that patch on his left shoulder? No blindsiding. That's a rule even in industry now. We document every single infraction at the office, so that when the time comes, the Boss can say "Clear your desk out, I will give you your final check in three hours, you're fired." Why? He doesn't want to be stuck in court or admin law proceeding. IMO, that process is on its head. Teach, mentor, grow. Allocate resources to continued growth and development. The vast majority of young men should complete their POR time and get credit. If we do our jobs right as Scouters, we have no Missing In Action Scouts in PORs. They're where they need to be, doing their job. Am I making sense? Am I getting to your points? YIS

E, Honor Camping Society as opposed to Scouting's Honor Society is a debate all by itself, to me. I think it has sufficient merit to be debated. I think the National Advisers and the National Youth Leadership, in making this change, did a dis-service to the Outdoors Method of Boy Scouting. Y'wanna spin off a thread, and let OJ have some input? BTW, if you're Daffy, then I'm Boo-Boo Bear. The Ranger isn't gonna like this, Yogi...

Have you: - Purged your cache? - Purged your history? - Run your AV on a complete sweep of your PC? Do you have: - AdAware (or equivalent) installed? - Spybot (or equivalent) installed? (I use not one but two malware checkers; over the years I've found using just one causes misses now and then). Have you checked your firewall settings or your HW firewall? - www.grc.com (Gibson Research) and their ShieldsUp app is a tool I use to make sure I'm in control of the software ports on my PC. Is your home network, if wireless, encrypted and password protected... with other than the manufacturer's defaults?? I've not experienced what you describe from scouter.com, but I have elsewhere at other times. It could be something being passed along by Scouters ad provider through the portal.

Venividi, With training, and supervision, I think the carrot part can still play for 98% of the youth. To me, it's an adult in nature issue to be looking out for the Scouts best interests. That means if we have a First Class Scout, we know he needs a POR or project to get to Star. With his needs identified, we then watch to see if he approaches the SPL/JASM/ASM/us for the same, or if he sits "like a bird in the wildnerness." If he makes the approach, a good, well-mentored SPL will look to either the election cycle or requesting a Warrant (appointed positions) from the SM. If he doesn't make the approach, then the SPL approaches the Scout and asks the right question. Once there is a fit between POR and Scout, it's time for a Scoutmaster Conference: Let's talk about your new assignment. Let's talk about what it'll take to get it done! Are you ready!!!??? This should be an upbeat and enthusiastic meeting. To me, if there is a crosswalk between Scout and committee member (scribe/advancement coordinator), this is a time where the two of them get linked together. Mentoring will require both general followup (how are you doing) and access to subject matter expertise (how do I do THIS???!!!??? (in a panic stricken voice). Sometimes another Scout will be the one to be the backup, sometimes it'll be the SM or committee member. Only if we see slacking off do we as adults have to go to the capabilities National gave us, and even there, we have to be mindful of expectations: The work I expect from my peers is not what I expect from a 13 year old.

MarkS wrote in part... "Given that Peaceful Valley is out of council for us and our OA lodge would hit us with a big election penalty if we didn't return to a local council camp next year,..." Pray tell, What (!!!???) is an election penalty? Please explain how the local Lodge, if following National Boy Scout Division policies, can hit a Troop with an "election penalty." If the Order is our Honor Camping Society, the encouragement of camping should be first and foremost in mind for youth officers and adult Advisors. This sounds counterintuitive and counterproductive for all concerned. ICS.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

A couple of comments to Venividi and the Forum: - It seems to me the SM is the one who signs off on a POR. If a young man is not fulfilling his responsibilities, then it's a matter of the SM having a SM conference with the young man and mentoring him. If the young man still doesn't fulfill the POR, then some tougher love is called for: Warn the young man, and his parents that if he doesn't get into gear, the SM will not sign off on completion of POR. (If I were an SM here, I'd also be alerting my CC, COR, UC, and District Advancement Chairman). If he still does not fulfill the POR, then SM has to follow through and refuse credit to the Scout. From the National website: "However, unit leaders must ensure that he is fulfilling the obligations of his assigned leadership position. If he is not, then they should remove the Scout from that position." http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/mbc/rank.html That allows the latitude to remove a youth for cause. Again, be careful if it gets to this point, cross-talk between SM, CC, COR, and UC is a good thing. 2) It goes back to what Beavah described as the "Warmy Body Syndrome." We who are Scouters cannot afford warm bodies. We want adults committed to youth. Why else are most of us still here after our young men have moved on from Boy Scouts???

Adults sit on Boards of Review: Am I not correct in saying this is mandated by Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures? (BSA # 33088D)? Further is this mandate not reinforced in both the Scoutmasters Handbook (BSA # 33009C) and the Troop Committee Guidebook (BSA #34505B)? Now, we can debate all day long about the propriety of youth sitting BORs. Since the SCOUT rank does not require a BOR, it's an opportunity for boys to see the other side of things. There is also value in young men learning by being on the other side of the table, and certainly a 16-17 year old JASM, TG, or Eagle talking to an 11-12 year old seeking T-2-1 under supervision is not the end of the world. Adults on the BOR is one of the elements of the Adult Association Method, which in turn should reach into both the Character Development and Citizenship Training Aims. That said, I can equally argue that for a young man sitting a BOR with the Committee, he is experiencing both the method and the two aims as well as the candidate. This is even more so when the BOR is properly constituted, and the young man sitting is a 4th or 5th person to be there.

Welcome, Corey, For your Program People (Cubmaster, Den Leader, ADLs): First, love young people. Second, want to have FUN with young people. Third, have leaders take the right training for the program: - Youth Protection - Cub Scout Fast Start - New Leader Essentials - Appropriate Den Leader Specific Training - Appropriate outdoor leader training (BALOO, Webelos Outdoor Leader) - Safe Swim Defense (planning a safe pool party). Away from formal training, go through the Guide to Safe Scouting, and look at it as pertains to Cub activities. Then, get a copy of your Councils' program planning kit. Build a multi-layer calendar: Integrate school activities, Pack activities, and Den activities. LOOK FOR OPPORTUNITIES TO DO FUN THINGS!! BSA has a pre-planned program, with monthly themes: You don't have to invent from whole cloth, rather, find things in your local area that fit into what's already out there. ScoutNut posted this in a thread I started a few months back (thanks, SN!): http://www.bacarrowhead.org/roundtable.htm Lots of Cub related stuff here. The 2004-5 RT Guide and Helps should be parallel to what will be for 07-08 program year. Attend your District Roundtable. Other Scouters are there, and the job of the RT Commissioner is to give you, the unit serving leader, a 30-60 day "heads up" on the program. It's also a chance to learn from others!! I really like learning by others mistakes. An important person to contact is your Unit Commissioner. He or she should be an experienced Scouter who can help you find resources. Start with your District Executive (a professional) and ask who your UC or District Commissioner is! Then, pepper him with questions! For your Committee, you need, at a bare minimum... A Chairman An Advancement/attendance person (in a perfect world, he/she will be computer savvy, lots of good support software out there) A Treasurer An Activities Coordinator (looks for FUN things for kids to do) A Pack Trainer (the most experienced Scouter you can find). Their training should be: - Youth Protection - Cub Scout Fast Start - New Leader Essentials For the activities person: - Appropriate outdoor leader training (BALOO, Webelos Outdoor Leader) - Safe Swim Defense (planning a safe pool party). For a ready-made fundraiser, fall in on your Council's popcorn program. As you get experience, you can go to free-standing fundraisers (such as Christmas wreath sales) Finally: Ask area Troops for Den Chiefs (Boy Scouts who want to serve as program assistants in Dens). From experience, I'd ask for young men who are 13-15 years old, are at least First Class Scout, and who will work together with an adult for the success of eight "little brothers." At the same time, ask those Troops for an ASM to be a "Cubs-Boys" coordinator. Bottom Line: Your program will be a success, if you set a goal of having FUN. Hide the motor skills and cognitive skills stuff behind having FUN, and the youth will have a blast and want more!(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Time for some quiet visits at the local coffeehouse (or wherever your youth hang out...) There is a WHY out there. The challenge is to find it! My classic example: Son, last year, was really up on staff work at a particular Scout Camp, until his band director locked in the next school years' schedule. The "on-curriculum" (stuff gets graded date) was July 31. That was before 5th session at camp ended. Camp Director told son that he couldn't hire him if he needed to be away from camp a session plus. Son immediately fell into a "I'm not going there anytime soon" funk. Son found a different staff assignment (better pay, better hours, AND flexibility to be at band rehearsals). Son found a Scout camp to attend as a camper. When asked in the Fall why he didn't report to work at the first place, he gave a truthful answer "Better offer elsewhere." When that Scouter came to me and asked for the backstory, he got it. Moral: There's always a backstory. Invest the energy to find out what's going on. Then you can see where you have to adjust program to support the youth members. They, and you, will be the better for it.

Ahhhhh.... I had not read that before. National finally caught up with field practices...

The proper place for any temporary patch is on the Right pocket of the khaki shirt (the left is reserved for rank during membership in youth programs, and is empty for Scouters). A Scout or Scouter is authorized one temporary patch at a time. Refer to the BSA Uniform and Insignia Guide, No. 33066 for specific info.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

As far as the rules of primary/dual registry, the answer is simple: CALL YOUR DE. My Crew stood up with 100% dual-registered youth. Even with an authoritative response of National policy from emb021, (and he does have a good tap for the answers), I've seen lots of things where local Councils go their own way. As far as standing up a Crew, the most important thing a leader proposing to do this can do is take an INTEREST INVENTORY of area youth. If your proposed Crew is backpacking based, but the area HS youth are band geeks and football lettermen, you're gonna have a mismatch!

I've not looked at Crazy Crow's catalog, but you might start with them. They seem very well connected, if they don't make it or carry it, they seem to know who does.

Unfortuntely, Mr or Ms Owain, the policy and operational differences between BSA and GSUSA make that a bridge too far for the next 5-10 years. There are many local activities that might be win/win events as joint activities. Even so, leaders are well served to make sure each part of the program does its own paperwork (I don't know what the term for Tour Permit is in Girl Scouting). In our District, we conduct group classes for the Protestant and Catholic Religious awards. We open the door not only to GSUSA but also the local Camp Fire units

If I do not have a passion for it, I do not counsel it. I enjoy all three Citizenships ... Don't ask me to counsel Music; I cannot carry a tune in a bucket.

E, I've seen it in my neck of the woods. What I don't see is a lot of support from experienced Scouters going back to help Packs. We seem to think a Cub Pack is a breeding ground for Scouters by finding parents who want to play. That's a culture issue that applies to all of us who are several years beyond Cubbing. Lisa and the Beav might have some good thoughts on this...

I'll go back to my Camping MB pamphlet (1969-70 edition as I recall). I seem to remember having to do a service project. Of course, I also remember doing a project for Forestry, and that was the same year, so I may be confuddled. Teaching the kids to care for the land is a good thing. Too little open land as is...

Neill, I went to the young mans' home last night; sat down briefly with him and his Dad. What you describe is almost word for word what I told him. I left what I told him in letters to both him and his father. A minor complication is Dad is politically powerful locally. Dad can make non-Scouting lives miserable for the Scouters if he so chooses. Even so, Dad understands the concept of fair warning. It's like Beavah said: If the young man is content with who he is, and doesn't need the label Eagle to be part of him, very cool. That's his choice We'll see what happens.

fotoscout, Yes, I understood you were not spraying the tent. Even so, in my Council, in both our Reservations leader guides, spraying propellant driven sprays in the tent is: "DO NOT BRING AEROSOL SPRAY CANS TO CAMP. Aeroseol spray used inside tents WILL remove waterproofing from tents. If waterproofing is destroyed, the cost is determined by individual case." Again, I do not know about your Council. I was on commissioner staff last year. I saw SMs come to the cabin and rail at the Assistant Camp Director (facilities and funds manager) about bills presented to replace tents. If your Council is OK with propellant driven spray in the tent, OK

I agree with most of what Beavah said. Gunny, if USMC leadership is anything like Army leadership, you've seen the old 4-square leadership dynamic diagram. What you've described is a case where the young man will probably serve most of his term in either Quadrant I (high direction, low support) or II (high direction, high support). A more typical youth (someone who is a good young man and will get there from here) probably will start off in Quadrant II and quickly move to Quadrant III (low direction (he knows what must be done and moves out), high support). In the case you described, the ASMs should go and have a cup of coffee with the SM. The SMs plate is going to be close to full with mentoring the SPL/ASPL. The ASMs need to volutarily take some of the other burden off the SM.

Thank you for the feedback, highcountry. Too often we don't hear how the story progresses. The next step is finding a Committee Chair. As Beavah said up above, "Never put a warm body into a position." You have almost as close a relationship with the CC as your SPL. Your needs include (in no particular order): - Someone who can listen to the program report and derive support tasks to the Program. - Someone who will both delegate tasks (and responsibility, and authority) as well as hold adults accountable for results (it really sucks when camp payment is 3 days away and your Treasurer cannot look you in the eye and say we're ready to cut the check! :-( ) - Someone who will encourage the Methods of Scouting from the adult side. - Someone who loves young men and who will help them grow by stretching them whenever the opportunity arises (but not stretch them by re-testing them!) - Someone who will take/apply and encourage others to the same, TRAINING. - In short, someone who will ensure the SPL, the PLC and you have the resources you need, when you need them! Keep the tale going as you get the chance

I hope you are using a hand sprayer for this, not a propellant driven sprayer. If you are, I hope a staffer or a Commissioner (or worse yet a Ranger) does not see you. In our Council, if you get caught spraying stuff inside your tent, YOU JUST BOUGHT A REPLACEMENT TENT.

That's a good way to do it! In our Council, the Protestant Committee sponsors all 4 PRAY programs. We meet 8 times from October to April, each session covers a lesson in the PRAY program. Especially for God and Church, we require the youth to meet with their own Pastors at three distinct points. That ensures the young people get introduced to the doctrinal nuances of their denomination. I say youth deliberately. By coordination, this class supports BSA, GSUSA, and Camp Fire in the area. My District's Catholic Committee has started a parallel program for the Catholic religious awards. Last year, Scouts in the Heart of America Council BSA received the most Protestant awards of any Council in the Nation.

Welcome, Gunny A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away (aka the Cold War), I was not a Jarhead, but a Redleg. All Redlegs, Army and Marine, train at the Comanche County Cannon Cocker College, AKA MCB Lawton, OK, AKA Fortress BY GOD Sill. When I taught, my Department Director was Col John Todd. My Career Course Tactics instructor was Maj Okland. Then Capt Ed Lesnowicz was my section leader during the Career Course (I think he finished up a Colonel), and then Capt Mike Boone was my Class Leader (but he was in our section)... I think he also ended up a Colonel. We had an Israeli LTC and a Swiss MAJ in our section as well. Take the course? HAH. They could have taught it all by themselves. They were guests of US Government, learning our schooling methodology. We were a tight-knit section. The rest of the course had to eke together a flag football team, we had our whole section turn out for every game! Our parties (the official discouragement of alcohol hadn't hit full stride yet) were epic. Thanks for doing what you do and what you've done. Enjoy making new friends as your Scouting life progresses

To the major issue, Lisa, I'll trust the SM and SPL have by now have had a "mutual mentoring" session. This hash, properly cooked in a Dutch oven, just might make a pretty good stew. To having the SPL report to the Committee, yes, when I was CC, I asked my SM to empower the SPL by doing just that: - Forced the young men to grow in terms of public speaking. - Forced the young men to get tasks which must in turn be delegated (You want to go to a HA program? Great, Mr SPL. Give us some input!) - That in turn allowed the SPL to delegate tasks within the PLC. Now, the SM sat right alongside the SPL. SM took his proper responsibility for program decisions. He was ready and able to step in when SPL "ran out of words," or when a Committee member started going too deep for the SPL. BTW, if you think I as CC didn't know almost exactly what the SPL was going to report (by having visited with the SM offline), well... I may have fallen off the turnip truck... I just didn't do it yesterday. As far as any tasks the Committee gave the SPL for the PLC to act on, these were also pre-coordinated with the SM, and usually were something the PLC was "sitting on."