John-in-KC

If there is a major difference between the Scoutmaster and his PLC, it's time for the Committee Chairman to contact the COR. It's time for some active program overwatch. As to the youth, keep planning. If you have to, come to Troop Committee meetings, tell the CC you have a progress report, and go play basketball outside. I'll bet the CC and the Committee Members will be asking tough questions of the Scoutmaster. The SM is the Program Officer, NOT the program dictator. At the same time, some further research into what will make the trip a big winner is always worth it. You're just over a year away from going; much of your planning will apply no matter where base camp is. Get online and see what your options can be. Keep us informed, please.

First, what ScoutNut said. Second: A Pack belongs to a Chartered Partner. IMO, it's a good thing, at tax time every year, to close out the books and offer them to the Chartered Partner for review. In many cases, State and local tax exemptions for Scout units come from the exemptions of the Chartered Partner. Books should be in such shape a parent can ask for status of funds for Billy on any given day, and get it within a workweek. Again, that is a personal opinion, not a prescriptive.

Sadly, not as often as I should.

First stop if you have questions about the integrity of an election is the Scoutmaster. Did he/did he not certify the Scout for eligibility to election? Ask if he is satisfied the election was fairly established and correctly run? Without the SM's support, you will be pushing a wet noodle uphill. The second stop is the Chapter Chief and Adviser. Ask for a clarification of procedures. Ask for citation of procedures against BSA/OA official documents. If at this point you still believe a grievous error happened, then a registered, return receipt letter, countersigned by you and the SM, to: Lodge Chief (a youth). Make copies (also registered, return receipt) to: Lodge Adviser Professional Staff Adviser to the Lodge Scout Executive (Supreme Chief of the Fire) Council Special Needs committee chair Chairman of the Board of the local United Way. Chapter Chief Chapter Adviser Chairman of the Council Camping Committee Will you get action? Don't know. You will however, cause some consternation in the Lodge and Chapter Chiefs: Few of them have ever received registered mail correspondence "of the record". Their stomachs should be in knots.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Highcountry, Respect, responsibility, caretaking ... was a hierarchy of support to others by any one person (me or you). You are not the one to take care of her. You do not have to take responsibility for her actions. You do, however, have to take responsibility for the Troops' actions going forward. You have to respect your unit and the adults in it. If the former CC continues to be a challenge, there are additional options out there. Be careful; if she's a Mom in the unit, some of them may bounce to the youth as secondary impact: - Talk with your COR. You may want to ask the Chartered Partner to contact Council and remove the woman from the BSA membership rolls. That is a drastic option. - Again, talk with your COR. If she continues to call meetings and interferes with the program in any way, you may have to ask for authority to call 911 and have her removed by the gendarmerie. Do not do this on your own, make sure the Chartered Partner stands behind you going into this. - At a less drastic level than either of the two above, if you have to ask her to leave each week, do so. If you need to detail an ASM to show her the door so you can do the program, do so. Thanks again for the feedback, we're grateful when we do. Take a look at the various leader selection literature available at the National website; you want a CC who is there to support the youth and the program!

Why? The best recruits are the Cubs themselves. A Pack "fun at school day" ... perhaps right at registration or "Night before School" works lots better. Let the kids themselves be in full uniform having fun and getting recognition by the teachers! KISMIF

Welcome to the Forums, Tahawk. You're of the age to have been on my BORs (68-73 or so youth membership). Lots of us have thoughts on what should be on the Eagle list. My pet rock is Cooking, having been a divorced Dad for 8 years now. Unfortunately, none of us are on the National Advancement Committee. I find it instructive when I sit EBORs to hear the answers to "You are with the Chief Scout Executive, the National Commissioner, and the President of the BSA. You get to remove 1 MB from the Eagle list. Which MB will it be and why?" (Ditto to add 1 btw). As for the program, there are things that are more essential to the current era. Frankly, I think Communications needs to be on the Eagle list, and the ability to write a letter needs to replace the old semaphore flags and Morse Code requirements. Our bandwidth is greater, but our teachers do a horrible job of teaching grammar and spelling in the schools. Again, welcome. We don't always agree around here, but we have fun thinking it through!

To go to wingnut's post... If I were sitting your Eagle Candidate's board, and I knew the Scoutmaster was evading the board, I'd be asking some very tough questions of the Scout. IMO, sending an ASM in your place to an EBOR, when you are available, is damnation by faint praise to the Scout. If I were the COR, and sitting the Board, my question would be "Why am I chartering this man as Scoutmaster, if he is unwilling to sponsor a Scout to his EBOR?" You certified the Scout on his Eagle Application. Have the courage of your convictions to stand with the Scout at his EBOR.

Philmont Training Center participant and staff patches... Those are not sold at TOT Traders...

I voted for him twice. I would not do so the third time around. Beavah and acco have hit most of my reasons, far more eloquently than I!

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/mbc/rank.html Boldface simply means a direct quote: "Unit leaders, assistant unit leaders, relatives, and guardians may not serve as members of a Scout's board of review." The quote above is a highlighted textbox in direct context of the Eagle BOR on the webpage. I suspect others can find similar quotes in Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, BSA #33088. Simple question, simple answer.

It's also part of the nature of active listening (or active reading in this case). We're not sure we received the message Mr Foxy wanted to send us, so we're probing, trying to get to the real question. We can easily give a short answer. It may not solve Mr Foxy's problem, but we can cut our efforts and be done with it. If we're not answering your real question, Mr Foxy, give us some feedback (it's a gift), and help us get to what you really need answered.

Ok, Mr usedtobeafox, you want a short answer: Of course, you can refuse to introduce an Eagle Candidate at his Eagle Board of Review. If you select that course of action, though, were I sitting the EBOR, my questions to the Scout would be of a much darker nature. I would be working from the assumption your signature on the Eagle Application is damnation by faint praise. My first question, if not asked by another, would be: "I see your Scoutmaster didn't introduce you. If you were Scoutmaster, would you want an Eagle Candidate such as yourself sitting this Board today? Why or why not?" Is that what you want for your Eagle Candidate? (If you were out of town on business or vacation, and the ASM introduced the Candidate with a "our SM regrets not being here, but..." ... and that's a different story.) If you think the Scout is not ready for Eagle, Beavah has a course of action for you: Don't sign his Eagle Application. I would get with your District Advancement Committee chair and make sure you know how to go forward in these circumstances. Being procedurally right is vital. You've expressed confidentiality issues. You need to take those up with the Board. Packsaddle told you this. If you still have concerns at that point, the Commissioner's Service is the Program side of the District and Council. They are the next step along the path. If your UC is a nonentity, visit with the DC. I wish you well.

Its Me, I think Mr usedtobeafox is talking about his thread in the Advancement Forum SM refuses EBOR http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=161566 I suspect he didn't get the answer he wanted from us. I'll go back and give him a short answer. I don't think he'll still like it.

Two comments: 1) E, I really do hope the two CD's have an attack of common sense, and a good WB course happens. That said, what happened to "Always have a Plan B?" Am I the only one here who thinks adjusting the course site 60 miles each way isn't exactly unreasonable? 2) I sense, and I lament, some of the old/new comments about WB. What's done is done. In fact, it was done half a dozen years ago now. National is not going to change. Do not insult those of us who took the course recently (Feedback is a gift, and my feedback is I feel you insulted the work my SM/SPL/TG/QM/other staff did, my patrol did, and I did). It's time all of us got over WB/21CWB and got on with serving the kids: Isn't that why B-P gave us the beads and the necker in the first place????

Congratulations to all five of the young men!!!! I was in your shoes about a year ago, as my son made his Eagle. Here are some things we did for the ECOH our young men had: 1) We made arrangements to publicize the event afterward with their HS and churches. Five Eagles at once in one school is sorta special 2) We asked our Congressman to make a "1 minute" floor speech about each young man. The youth then got a presentation copy of the Congressional Record of the speech! 3) We asked our State Senator and General Assemblyman for recognition resolutions honoring the young men. These are always voted unanimously, and our State Printer makes and frames engraved parchment copies of the resolution. 4) Hold the ECOH someplace special to the five young men! 5) Hopefully, there's been an elder Eagle who's been a mentor all along the way. Have the young Eagles ask him to be your guest speaker. 6) Take the time to do the program right. Pictures of the young men then and now, a summary of the big things they've done in Scouting, the concept paragraph from their Eagle Leadership Service Project... let the program be about the young men, not about the unit. HTH! Congratulations again!(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

I agree with Packsaddle's call for still more info, and his comments about talking with the board regarding confidentiality. If you cannot trust the EBOR with confidentiality of your comments, that is a matter for you to share with your unit and District Commissioners. As to the COR being on the board, he has every right in the world to a seat at the table. As far as I am concerned, IH's and COR's should have automatic invites to EBORs. The Chartered Partner owns the unit, it's an opportunity for them to sense the quality of program delivery.

???? The Scoutmaster, as program officer, does not sit the Eagle Board of Review. It should be comprised of members of the unit committee, the District Eagle Guest, and other Scouters if the youth has someone special he wants to sit his board. The Scoutmaster should be there to introduce the Scout. It's only courteous. The Scoutmaster is the one who takes the Scout through his Eagle SM Conference. I would be asking very serious questions if the Scoutmaster was unwilling to introduce the Scout. In fact, I'd be asking the District Eagle Representative for appeal procedures ... something is very wrong here. Now, the above applies to a unit level EBOR. Many Districts use District level EBORs, where a unit Scouter, typically the CC, sits as the unit rep. What's the backstory here?

My records were 30 years and two Council mergers old. At one point, I did ask the Professional Staff Adviser for the successor Lodge if he or the Registrar could locate records. He laughed. They had destroyed inactive records except Eagle/West/AOM/Vigil/Silver Beaver dating before 1980 in 1995. I'm really glad I held on to my OA handbook and my membership cards.

Some observations, most are my personal opinions (except in 1) 1) The Scoutmaster, as program officer, and the unit Advancement coordinator, as the keeper of data (unless the Troop has a really good youth Scribe), are the two people responsible for certifying eligible Scouts. The requirements for election are absolute; they are found as I recall in both the OA Handbook and in the OA Lodge Elections book (I don't remember the Supply stock number! ) 2) One of my favorite Scoutmaster's made sure the SPL announced OA elections starting a month out. He usually released his list of eligibles two weeks out. At that time, in his SM minute, he would say "If you have a reason for voting against an eligible Scout, please give me the courtesy of sharing the Scout and the reason with me privately. I'll be here late tonight, next week as well, or you can call me at home." WHY? It helped the "I heard Jack say Billy say Joe say Mike was stealing candy at the school cafeteria" votes against for rumor control. It also helped validate when a Scout wasn't really worthy of honor ("I do not think Billy deserves election, he only makes 1 meeting in 4 and he doesn't camp with us very often"). 3) A Scoutmaster owes the not-elected-Scout a SM conference before announcing winners: IMO there are growth opportunities from non-election, if the conference is done upbeat and positive. 4) My Troop traditionally holds elections just before B/G Banquets and bridging: That way, there's pretty much been a year for the newest Scouts to get to know the older ones, and be able to make competent judgments.

My cost was a little less than Lisa'Bob's cost, and my timeframe is similar. John I used to be an Owl C-40-05

result1, Thank you for the feedback. So very often, we do not get it . Feedback is a gift, it helps us make sure we are answering your questions. As your post notes, I think you've found this particular Troop to be "just not right" (my own words, not yours). You have to make the choices in the best interests of your own son. and moving to another unit, or even another program, sounds like much less hard work than forcing the wet noodle of making change happen in the old Troop. That, to me, is a sadness. I've been a Soldier for one or two mornings now. I've been a Scout and Scouter not quite as long. My chartered partner not on sponsors a Pack, Troop and Crew, but also a CAP Squadron and youth squadron. There are fundamental differences in the educational bases between Scouting and the Civil Air Patrol: - CAP Squadrons and Youth squadron programs are military/paramilitary in nature. After all, they are establishments of the Department of Defense, as the US Air Force Auxiliary. Educational and instructional methods include military discipline and close order drill. As a Soldier, the teaching point of both these is to instill immediate and willing obedience to orders. Whether an infantry battalion, a squadron of bombers, or a torpedo boat on a firing run, the premise of military discipline is to steel the individuals of a unit to go in harms way and accomplish the mission, no matter the individual consequences. Mutual trust and confidence is a supreme value; the individual is subordinate to the team. CAP also uses an absolute seniority system of "chain of command" for youth leadership. Diversity is of lesser import than unity. - Scouting is designed to develop young men (men and women in Venturing) as self-sufficient, self-reliant, thinking individuals. It melds those individuals into small teams for collective good. It promotes participatory democracy and group decisionmaking, but also promotes leadership and accountability. Diversity and unity are important in nearly equal measure. Wherever your son ends up, I wish him fun, learning, and growth. I wish for you a young man who is ready to take his station in life as he turns into young adulthood.

BrotherhoodWWW, I think you need to go back and read OA manuals dating back to the Nineteen SIXTIES!!! I think you also need to read the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America: We are not allowed to have SECRET SOCIETIES. NO HAZING is another rule of BSA. (Both of those are in my own OA manual, given me at my Ordeal (1969 reprint of the 1965 edition)). Mind you, if the Order was a secret society, there are churches in US Protestant Christendom which would start Matthew 18 discipline proceedings: Most Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod parishes fall into this category. As Gern said, we use mystery as a program tool. Everything, literally everything, about the Order is and has been available to Scouters, parents, teachers, religious leaders ... anyone who has a legitimate interest. All the interested person need do is contact the Council Lodge Adviser (a volunteer), Staff Professional Adviser to the Lodge, or the SE. You've hit a hot button with me on this one; I'm dealing with the mother of my Eagle over his membership in the Order and the Tribe of Mic-o-Say. She's thrown the secret society claim on the table, falsely. I've had to do some significant emotional damage control. Eagle son loves and appreciates the values of both the order and the Tribe. Equipping him to handle a confrontational, accusatory challenge has been a hard thing. Thankfully, good Scouters, Arrowmen and Tribesmen both, have helped me and him in this.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Having also been a WSI, I would rate WSI as one notch below the level of National Camp School Aquatics Director training. FWIU, AD training covers all aspects of pool management, where WSI teaches training techniques. WSI and BSA LG Counselor, from all I've seen, are on par with each other, even if not necessarily mutually recognized. BSA LG, done to rigorous standard, and allocated plenty of practice time, prepares the Scout/Venturer/Scouter for most rescue challenges short of technical white water. A BSA LG is fully trained in SSD and SA. He's trained in setting up and maintaining a swim area, be it pool or open water. He's trained in the baseline aquatics rules that comprise the G2SS aquatics chapter. When I was TC Chair, I was a current BSA LG. The Troop wanted to do something completely out of the safety box. I had a (then 10th grade) youth BSA LG. I asked him to come to TC and throw down the baloney flag. Amazing how chastened the Scouters were.

Welcome to the Forums!! You were part of the "in-between" times, the 70s. Up to the 1960s, there was a progressive set of skills in First Aid which Scouts learned as they advanced to First Class. They then earned the Eagle Required First Aid Merit Badge during their Star and Life tenures. This was the long-standing program of Green Bar Bill Hillcourt. Sometime after I left the youth program, BSA changed it and made First Aid MB the check-block for First Class, rather than ramping up to it at S-L. In the late 80s/early 90s, Hillcourt revamped the program one last time (he's since passed this life). First Aid again became disrete skills at T-2-1, and First Aid MB was required for Eagle. HTH. YIS