fred8033

In our council, the eagle app is dropped off at the council office. Then it's triage by council staff (who are experts in the process and very supportive ... but it takes time). Then it's sent to the district via mail or district picks up. At that point, two to three weeks have elapsed. Then EBOR is considered for scheduling. Sometimes it's a week. Most of the time it's another several weeks. The average to EBOR done right now is eight to nine weeks. I'd be supportive if we could directly deliver the Eagle apps to the district advancement chairs. That would save at least two weeks of the processing. But then again, it seems like it could be expedited even more ... drastically more.

I'm not quoting anything at all about the EBOR. I'm saying the backend paperwork done by unit, district and council should be expedited. Currently, it takes way too long and there are too many people touching the application with no value added. The EBOR should continue as now. If anything, the scout could take more responsibility for his EBOR by bringing his presentation materials with him into the EBOR. Thus, making it more his EBOR that he actively drives than an EBOR that he just sits through.

I agree. When I look at the individual advancement report, it's already there. It shows the dates for each eagle requirement, etc. It evaluates whether the records indicate the scout completed each of the requirements. Here is what I think is needed. Manual step still ... A "Ready for EBOR" review queue and screen .... Council staff would have access to unit data and an ability to push "approved for Eagle board of review". That approval should automatically email the contacts setup for in the troop (scoutmaster, committee chair, advancement admin), scout family (mom, dad, scout) and district advancement staff (district advancement chair, and other members). That review could essentially check that each of the Eagle rank requirements were approved by unit leadership. Automated ... "100% automated paperwork review" ... Once the last Eagle requirement before EBOR was approved by unit leaders, the system could automatically notify a new scout is ready for his EBOR. Supporting materials ... For now, the scout could bring supporting materials to his EBOR ... project workbook, pictures, diagrams, timesheets, other .... The scoutmaster or other unit leader sitting in the EBOR could bring the reference letters and other non-scout-materials. Long term, maybe a file repository could be created where we upload the project workbook, images and other related paperwork. It seems like this could happen fairly quick. What I'm seeing is council staff is spending at least $25 or more per application to process an Eagle app. ... plus postage. Then add many weeks of delays as things bounce between people or wait for a human to do what is already done automatically in ScoutBook. I think this 9 to 11 week turn-around could be reduced to 21 to 3 weeks.

While doing advancement at the district and council level, I've met many wonderful scouters, both professional and volunteer. These scouters are dedicated and do an outstanding job. With that said, I suspect our council is fairly common about processing Eagle paperwork. From the time the scout gives his application to his scoutmaster, and the scoutmaster drives it into the council office ... and then it gets reviewed by the council ... and then it is sent to the EBOR ... and the EBOR is scheduled ... and the EBOR occurs ... and the paperwork is returned to the council ... and the scout receives confirmation that national has approved his Eagle rank ... it takes between 9 to 12 weeks. By far the biggest delay is shuffling paper around and re-checking data that is already in scoutbook / ScoutNet. So now with all units using ScoutBook, can we eliminate the Eagle application? Heck, ScoutBook already has a report that mostly fills out the Eagle application. The only two things on the application that are not in scoutbook are the reference letters and the project workbook. Beyond that, shuffling the paperwork is just redundant extra labor that slows things down and also adds the risk of losing the paperwork of the project or the reference letters or the pictures. Can we re-design the process and eliminate the Eagle application? Can we take the 9 to 12 week turn-around and change it to 2 to 4 week turn-around ? Can we save the labor, the gas, the postage, etc ?

Wow!!! That's a beast. Cool and fun to have, but still a beast. How well does it do getting pulled ?

Good choice. Of course, I'm laughing. Sometimes column advice doesn't match the needs of the original poster. I was far off. Of course, now your troop will require new scoutmasters to own a 3/4 ton pickup. Your choice is fine and makes sense. With a 80 person troop, I'd be tempted to have two trailers to support multiple events or allow people with smaller vehicles to help pull the trailer. I've always thought some months might be nice to split the troop (when we were larger). Those interested (younger patrols ??) could go to the district camporee and the more adventurous patrols could do a hiking trip or canoe trip. You might want to keep your existing trailer to support smaller events or to store less-used gear.

I've reviewed and signed 300+ eagle project proposals. I've been on EBORs and helped many scouts. My personal opinion is that all the requirement "hoops" are guidance to create a quality program. Focus on the quality and the program. Opportunities for advancement can naturally occur within that structure. Get these scouts out doing things. Camping. Volunteering. Exploring opportunities. There is no "ideal" scout path except individual paths that keep the scout active. Make sure these new scouts get a big activity every year. Maybe a few big/moderate activity every year. Each month should include smaller manageable activities / programs. Most importantly, let them set their journey and decide what these activities are. PLC consider rank requirements during annual planning. I've always viewed advancement as an individual scout activity (not a troop program), but the troop annual program plans should support / consider the concept of "first class in the first year". What I mean is that it's up to the scout to take advantage of opportunities and to drive their own advancement. But the PLC should create opportunities in the annual plan for scouts to earn first class and earn merit badges. For example ... the troop doesn't have to teach the biking merit badge and have structured meetings around the biking merit badge, but the troop could offer a bike camp out each year. It would address a merit badge, selecting camp sites, using taut line knots to secure tents, etc. Most importantly, these scouts do have that tight of a time line. The scout and the scoutmaster sit down in a SMC. Draft on a piece of paper a timeline of what needs to happen when. The SM should help the scout understand their path toward Eagle. Things that take time. Challenges. How to get some things done. Then, have the scout put the paper in their scout handbook. Maybe every few months the scout and the SM can chat about progress and how the scout is doing.

I'll add a few that I think are key Weight when empty - Gear only adds more weight. Our trailer is 6x12 or 7x12 and must be 1500+ pounds empty. So even empty, vehicles are affected by the trailer. On one camp out, we rented a low profile UHaul aluminum trailer. We had that thing packed tight and you could still not feel it behind the car. Wind drag - How high and what shape is the trailer? Some trailers will pull easier than others just because of shape and height. Steel or aluminum - This directly goes to weight but also affects cost. But, a light weight trailer will save the volunteers money replacing their transmissions. Seriously. I've been in multiple troops due to having too many sons. For one troop, I regularly pulled their trailer. In the other troop, I refused to pull the trailer as it was a beast filled to the brim with cast iron and heavy chuck boxes and stuff. I would easily advocate for a troop to spend a few extra thousand to get a good light weight trailer. It's a matter of being kind and considerate to your current and future volunteers.

"If I could go back in time to when I started scouting" ... I'd do what I saw another troop do that I thought was really cool. They found an old broken down medium sized pop-up camper. The gutted it. Removed all the heavy weight junk until it was just a shell. Then, they re-sealed the base and used it as one big portable storage box. The low profile reduced wind drag. Even a minivan could pull their scout trailer. The pop-up camper top was still in-tact. A scout on each end could lift the cover and lock the roof up so they could access the insides. The openness of the trailer promoted completely emptying it. In my experience, large troop trailers become the main storage. Troops carry thousands of pounds of extra stuff to camp that they use once a year. The result is only a guy with a Dodge Ram 25,000 can pull the troop trailer.

Fully agree. The only limitation I'd have is if the troop really has special unique rules. Such as if the scoutmaster requires service hours to be pre-approved or done within a troop coordinated event. If that's the expectation, I'd fully document it in advance. Same with eagle project proposal approvals. ... but I'd argue ... units just don't need to create special rules. Keep it simple. Keep it fun. BSA has lots already documented and laid out. The scout is already carrying around his Boy Scout handbook. I would not expect a scout to carry around bylaws or have to read a committee written legal document. Units need to document ...permission forms for camp outs ... where do you meet ... how much are dues ... how are fundraiser results used ... Units really don't need to HAVE special rules or punishments.

I fear this is more a threshold issue than any specific oath or law issue. Also, as a leader, I try to avoid hard line responses as you can only do that so many times before the scouts stop coming to you. I'd approach it more as being smart and having a conversation of equals and not a adult-leader-telling-youth conversation. I'd approach it as this is an age of youth-protection where there have been abuses. We are also in an age where people can easily mis-interpret. Even more, people are actively looking for gotcha opportunities to prove how politically correct they. So, many may think it's funny, but it can and WILL raise alarm bells. We could easily face repercussions for such a skit. So, is it smart to that skit given the risk and potential headaches ?

I agree. Filling PORs with scouts teaches our scouts a bad lesson and can lesson the perception of scouting's value because scouts are checking boxes and getting credit for a title instead of doing something. This reflects a comment that I wrote and removed earlier. Too often leaders get caught up teaching leadership as if it was the only benefit of scouting. There are lots of benefits. But those benefits are benefits, not the core focus. Focus first on the promises of scouting. Adventures. Friendships. Learning new things. Being part of a gang of friends. If troop leaders focus on supporting scouts as they pursue the promise of scouting, there will be continuous opportunities for the adult leaders to teach and coach subtle lessons (skills, leadership, etc) So, get the scouts up and running the program. Support them. Continually adjust. Beyond that, don't worry about having qualified leaders first. Spend your energy on supporting a great scouting program and finding the next warm cup of coffee.

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Model the desired program early. Don't wait. Doing anything else creates a program that's not scouting. Get the scouts ... AND THE ADULTS ... accustomed to scouts being in-front and driving the program and the adults in the background. ... If you have 10 or fewer scouts, then you don't need a SPL. Just have a PL. Or if you have 10 to 15 scouts, have two PLs that coordinate with each other. But somewhere after the second patrol is created, the scouts should choose a SPL. A brand new scout may not be as effective as a fifth year SPL, but that's not the point. If you want effectiveness, then just let the adults always be up front. My main two reasons for this is ... scouts use these leadership opportunities to learn how to be a leader. Second, it's their program and they should lead it. I see no reason to wait beyond a brief introduction into scouting and what is expected. IMHO, the best thing is to setup the expectation early that it's a youth program with the adults in the background. I'm not saying you let things fall apart. We as leaders continually adjust to the scouts that we have and not wait until they are picture perfect. Heck, often scouts move on before that happens. .... So, a brand new SPL? Take him aside before a meeting. Coach him. Ask him what he wants to accomplish at the meeting. Ask him what he thinks he should cover. Ask him what's next on the schedule. Ask him how he's going to address menu planning. Maybe some subtle hints, but I've often found the best scoutmasters mostly ask questions and rarely suggest or tell. The key point is continually adjust to the scouts and find subtle ways to guide the scouts.

I'm not sure how much news this is. Our many years of Cub Scout camps were very much family camp. Some families had both parents there. Family camp may be just a re branding that the scouting program so desperately needs.

Tatung42 ... My apologies. I never meant to infer you did not know or that you were unreasonable. I fully understand and I've been there. I was in your situation 12 years ago with my second son. I had taken him on long canoe trips. Overnights on a local slow moving river with my father-in-law. I think it created some great memories for both of us. Then, the den wanted to go on a canoe trip as part of their fun. But we did follow BSA's rules and we grumbled quite a bit about it. It seemed ridiculous that an outdoor program put such tight restrictions on their members. On BSA's side though, there is clearly a question of whether an 8 to 11 year old kid is mentally and physically ready for a canoe trip. Can they save themselves? Do you require one-adult-to-one-scout ratio so there is an adult to save each scout? What if the adult is too busy saving themselves? Or saving the canoe? I've seen slow class I get dangerous because rocks get exposed and canoes can get trapped or tipped on those rocks. Add a quick forming storm and storms do happen. ... Even in slow moving water and with life jackets, it can get dangerous quickly. I flip back and forth on this each time I think about it. IMHO, it should be fine. I as a parent would absolutely take my kid doing it. But then again, it's my kid. As an organization, can BSA take on the responsibility for approving what could easily be an overreach by the den leaders ?

Did you find "gently flowing water" here? https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/HealthSafety/pdf/680-685.pdf I always first refer to the Guide To Safe Scouting. https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416.pdf Page 15 says "Cub Scout activities afloat are limited to council, district, pack, or den events that do not include moving water or float trips (expeditions)." I fear BSA's internal documentation has internal conflicts way too often. Their age sheet says it's okay for wolf and above. Their G2SS Safety Afloat says no. BSA really needs to gear up their quality control Situations like this are aggravating. Also, I fear calling your council to ask may result in a 3rd different answer. IMHO ... the issue is not whether your son can do it. It's really the lowest common denominator situation. It's also a peer-pressure issue causing a dangerous situation. Often in dens, there are 2 or 3 strong swimmers. 2 or 3 okay. And 1 or 2 weak or non-swimmers. And, there are often dads with poor health or not able to swim that don't want to admit it. Essentially, lots of cub scouts and lots of dads are just not up to moving water. ... So a den saying let's go tubing can cause a dangerous situation. Also, a class I can quickly become a class II or III depending on rain or lack of rain. ... Also, I generally refer to class I as a river.

This is more an issue with approach than unclear definitions. Though these sentences are worded as they are for a reason, BUT the more important point is our attitude when working with scouts. Arguing legalities means we are not supporting the scouts in a friendly constructive way. Worry less about legalities and more about being supportive and helpful to the scouts.

Two more syllables. Otherwise, "demonstrate" infers a bit more "doing" than "show". Dictionaries say both "show" and "demonstrate" are about displaying, but "demonstrate" is about displaying the method of doing something.

I assumed you were making a point that I missed. Partials have no expiration except the scout turning 18. BSA Guide To Advancement, Section 7.0.3.3 Partial Completions ... "Partials have no expiration except the Scout’s 18th birthday."

EBORs will never see the physical blue cards unless the scout chooses to bring them. I've been on many boards and never seen them brought or people ask to examine. The EBOR wants to see that BSA national has a record of the MB being earned. That's it. The rest of the record keeping is between the scout and the troop. With scouts and MB counselors, we need to keep our "procedures" flexible and supportive. If you want to find the procedure details to implement, read BSA's Guide To Advancement, Section 7 The Merit Badge Program. That's what's expected and that's what we can hold the scout accountable to doing. No more. No less. Hopefully, it's consistent with the scout's handbook and the wording on the physical merit badge card. https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf

Qwazse was right and well written. Deal with the scout as an honest individual who can represent himself. Be friendly, not inquisitive. Looking for understanding, not laying down the rules. My area of emphasis would be different though. I'd ask ... Why do you have the blue card? Give it to the scout. Incomplete MBs are the scout's responsibility, not yours. Maybe take a picture just in case the kid loses it. That's just being helpful. The point is incomplete merit badges are between the scout and his counselor. If that counselor is now gone (MB fair or summer camp), then help the scout find another counselor. Beyond that, it's between the scout and the MB counselor. Plus, It's up to each individual counselor to decide what is complete in a MB. If I were a MB counselor receiving a scout with a partial MB, I would probably sit with the scout to understand if and when he completed the previous requirements. STRANGE ... After all these years, I'm just now realizing a contradiction I've always had without realizing. Ranks earned / reviewed are done. You don't undo awarding ranks. Further, rank requirements that are learned, tested and signed off in the handbook are sacrosanct in my view. They are done. Not to be undone. They are only revisited for repetition, reminder, learning, competitions, etc. ... The contradiction ... is that I've always thought of the merit badge as the requirement and not the individual MB requirements. I've always been comfortable when a scout changes MB counselors that a new MB counselor can revisit requirements. The scout has the option to find another counselor, but I've always viewed MB requirements as a soft more flexible baseline. Essentially, once a scout earns a MB, it's done. But individual MB requirements for incomplete MBs were always a grey area. So ... in my view. The card says "Needs #4". That's a personal note for the counselor to remind him what's left. Don't make it your job. Relax and have a cup of coffee.

I've often seen biased judging too and I rarely like camporees competitions, unless we win. But except for the physical size, I don't see much advantage by older scouts. Younger scouts often benefit from more recent teaching and being a little more focused. Older scouts have size, but have often forgot or are not as committed to the competition. My experience is few older scouts really care about the competition.

I just don't see the issue. New patrols can very easily win a camporee competition ... if they prepare and are motivated. The SM should always be inspiring and encouraging the scouts to grow. But that's different than always setting the direction and the specifics. The skill is knowing how much, how far and which direction. Inspiring a four year patrol to win a camporee can often alienate scouts. Camporee competitions are good for scouts in their first few years. After that, it's a been-there-done-that situation. So then we look for the next growth opportunity. Adult leaders need to constantly adjust. Adjust to the scouts. Adjust to the situations. Adjust to find new ways to inspire and help the scout stretch and grow and have a good experience.

Putting temporary badges on the back of the sash is per BSA uniforming guide. Page 11, "Excess Insignia" ... "Scouts may wear only temporary patches (no badges of rank) on the back of the merit badge sash." I know scouters can posture on many different issues, but this is really one that we should celebrate and not ridicule. There are way worse uniforming creations than what is worn on the back of the sash. I have my hot button ones too, but our role is to celebrate the scouts and not look down on them.