fred johnson

Algonquin ... I'm just saying that you don't need to slowly phase in scouts signing off skills advancement. That type of change can be made very quickly. Scouts are quick to adjust and will probably like some of this. It's the adults that are the problem. Just be careful not to step on too many toes. I will say this. Scoutmaster works with the scouts and runs the BSA program. Troop committee and the chair deal with infrastructure to keep the troop running. But everyone needs to get along. Building consensus is important. Conflict between the adults will subvert the program and affect the scouts. I fully believe the best way to make some of these changes are to make them quickly by working with the SPL and PLC. But you still need to get the troop adults on the same page.

Qwazse ... In your example ... You're refering $6000 in popcorn sales. In every instance I've seen, the troop is NOT under the same non-profit as the council. As such, the troop earned $3000 in their fundraiser. You're suggesting the scout gets to control/benefit from 66% of the non-profit funds. That's private benefit by definition. You call the IRS rules Marxism, but Marxism is the exact idea of a non-profit. Funds raised by a non-profit are used to benefit the goals and target population of the non-profit. If you don't like it, then issue the scouts an IRS form 1099 and move on. If the justification to spend 66% money on a single scout is based on "it's his money", that's private benefit. If the justification of who is selected as the scout is based on who raised the money, that's private benefit. Justifying or selecting based on how the money was earned is private benefit. I fully agree that scouts can get re-energized by high adventures and big events like Jambo and energized scouts benefits the troop. But does it benefit the troop to $2000? $2000 is well on the way to a new trailer. $2000 can help needy scouts or subsidize camps. It's free weekend camps for 80 scouts or week of summer camp for 8 to 10 scouts. Anyway, my troop isn't perfect on this. But I'd rather understand the rules so we can move in the right direction than to pretend the rules work differently.

Some scouters focus too much on rank and begin to think it's their job to protect the integrity of the meaning of the ranks. Then when they see a frustration that should be fixed or improved, it comes out the wrong way. Then, they end up frustrated with the scouts for not measuring up to some imaginary standard. Ultimately, the ranks and the advancement program means something different for each scout. Scouts are at different levels and capabilities. It's not about getting each scout to the same level. It's about using the advancement program to develop the character, independence and responsibility in each scout. Calling someone a paper eagle is completely inappropriate and not worthy of any scout leader.

In scouting that doesn't really mean much except bragging rights. Scouts turn over every seven years. Leaders turn over regularly too. The key is that the troop personality is the people. And the practices and habits of the troop reflect the leaders and they slowly change as the leaders change too. Sometimes they change for the good. Sometimes they change for the bad. 35 years means nothing for how it is now. Heck, if troops didn't change, we'd still be discussing what to do when a scout brought a Panasonic FM radio to camp or his dad's Playboy. Times change. Troops change. You want more senior scouts to sign off on skill achievements? Start now. Work with the SPL and PLC so that they can explain how it will work and so that they can influence how it will work. Just do it.

Pack18Alex ... IRS said 30% is substantial and 2% is insubstantial. 20% and 25% is in the grey area. Do as you will given that I've never heard of a troop audited by the IRS. Qwazse ... "If a boy fund-raises enough to go to Jambo, ..." is explicitly private benefit. When a scout fundraisers money in the name of the troop, then the funds belong to the troop. So if "the troop" raises enough to send someone to Jambo, the criteria for picking the scout needs to be based on troop benefits or need or something aligned with the non-profit goals. If the criteria is "who raised the money", that is explicitly private benefit. As a 3rd party and given that Jambo costs $2000 to $2500, I'd really question whether that is the best way to spend a very large part of the troop's funds.

Troop policies are unenforceable and moot. Scouts signed up as scouts and subject to the BSA program. Troop unique or conflicting policies can essentially be wiped away by ignoring them and focusing strictly on the BSA program as written.

Well written. Sounds accurate to the IRS documents I've read.

I've used Google Groups for years now for a large large large group. Should work fine for a small group. If you grow larger (hundreds), you start getting issues when trying to "add" people. They will want you to "invite" people and that does not work cleanly for email lists because not everyone knows enough to "accept" the invite. It can get to be a big pain. We use soarol.com. I've seen other groups use Facebook.com successfully. Good luck.

Agree with KDD & bokirs. It's not my job to make them sleep as much as they are not disturbing others. It's one of the reasons that, if we do cabin camp, we will not rent a large one room bunkhouse that sleeps 20+ scouts. In those type of facilities, you need to have an adult run as policeman to keep people quiet. The last time we did it we had 24 scouts in one room. We had a strong SPL, but the level of energy was too much even for him. And it brought out the worst in some kids. Now, our ideal is a cabin that sleeps 8 and then rent four of them. Ideally, we avoid cabin camping. Tents are great because they divide the scouts into groups of two or three. It automatically cuts down the energy level and gets scouts to start sleeping.

No tips. The only thing I can suggest is to do everything with a smile and a friendly hand shake. People get weird once money is on the table. Build up your positive relationship reserve so that when you discuss money everyone stays happy.

jpstodwftexas is right on. Same for our summer camp. Call out means being separated from your unit for about 15 minutes minimum to as long as you want to socialize. No more than 15 minutes is required though. As for CPAP, if you can go to summer camp with it, you can get through an OA ordeal with it. Just let them know in advance.

We use http://soarol.com. It costs $99 per year and seems to do well. I know others just use Facebook for their site and have found rules and practices to make it work.

Personally, I would accept it and go through with the ceremonies. It would help you better understand OA. But, it has little bearing on your involvement with your troop. OA is youth run. At most, you will be able to represent and/or explain OA to interested adults. That is helpful. There is no long term obligation and, from what I've seen, there is no adult position in your own troop relative to OA. I'd go through with it because in future years you may have other adults who would be worthy of OA and at the same time you might want to get involved and/or help. Personally, if you like doing service for others, then accept it. If you don't think you will get involved helping OA sometime in the future (opening camps, service projects, staffing conclaves, etc) then pass on it. If the issue is having enough adults at camp during some immediate OA ordeal, that can be solved. Camp staff will step in if nothing else.

IMHO, the whole purpose of scouting is to teach character, responsibility, citizenship, etc. It's not just limited to advancement, SM conferences or BORs. If a scout treats another poorly, deal with it and immediately. In our troop, it's handled through either casual or more structured conversations. And it's often handled with questions. What did you say? How do you think that made him feel? How would you feel if someone said it to you? What purpose was there to saying that? What was the result? Our job is to make sure these things get dealt with in a timely way either by ourselves, our fellow leaders or by the youth leaders. for this situation, I'd look to strike up a casual conversation and let him know you heard what he said and ask him why he doesn't think the other scout will advance. And then lead into the other questions and ultimately about how we treat other people. And ... hopefully I do it with a smile on my face and in such a way that he's thinking more about what he did and said than about what I said and whether I'm upset with him. Peter

Pack bylaws and voting over-structures what a pack is meant to be. A charter org wants to run a youth program and asks people to help run it. Those people act as friends helping to complete an objective. BSA already has enough policies and procedures in place to run a pack. Additional bylaws add little value. As for voting people into positions, IMHO, that may work in your situation, but it is generally a not a good idea. The charter org is supposed to vouch for the leaders. How do they do that if people are throwing their hats into the ring. Generally, it's the people who show up. But the concept is the charter org is over-seeing the quality and administration of the pack. More importantly, you need the chain-of-command so you know what can be done when problems occur. Essentially, you need a higher up who can quickly fix things and fire people if necessary. If you have a pack that is so successful that you need to talk bylaws and voting people into positions, then IMHO you need a committee chair and cubmaster that are not elected. You need the charter org to find people who are very very good at keeping the peace, building relationships and being organized. Otherwise, a really successful pack can fall appart quickly. ============ Please note. ... I do not think more bylaws add value. BUT BUT BUT ... a very well written parent guide and/or leader guide is extremely helpful. What are your dues. When do you meet. Who is the charter org. What does the charter org want out of the pack. Where do you usually camp. etc etc etc

Great article and well said. Not trying to re-open debate. BSA needs out of the political positioning battle. And it should be very easy. Just let each charter org choose their leaders and their members. And then move on. USA is not a homogeneous population. We are a nation of many beliefs and values. Let BSA provide the program and structure and then let the charter orgs run their units. And if a value / belief difference affects specific charter org membership, that's a decision of the specific charter org. Then, let the market drive which charter orgs people join.

This has been discussed before, but it's a hot button topic for me. Our district had a bad Eagle proposal approval process years ago and it's fixed now. The headaches of the proposal approval both scared away and also blocked multiple scouts from achieving eagle. --------------------------- And, I must admit I'm glad our district no longer has an Eagle BOR to approval Eagle project proposals. We have one guy. The scout calls him, schedules a meeting, meets with him ... and if everything is good ... he'll sign it right then and there. It all occurs usually within a week of the scout calling the guy and less than an hour of face-to-face time. If he's not available, another district advancement team guy is available to review and approve. This is consistent with BSA GTA sections 9.0.2.1 and 9.0.2.7 which reminds us as leaders and reviewers to be sensitive of a scout's time as he should be of ours. Plus the new Eagle workbook has it nice and clean. There is ONE SIGNATURE location for one council/district person to sign. I think that is right. --------------------------- IMHO, a committee review of the proposal does nothing to help the scout succeed and only can create headaches and failure points. IMLTHO, it serves more to promote the Eagle rank pompousness and does nothing to help the scout succeed. I've seen one version of committee review and it was hell. Years ago, we also had one contact, but there was a committee who would review and discuss each eagle project. It was a major obstacle and took a month or more to get approval. -- Seen the status and review progress get lost in emails between the committee of app rovers. -- Seen the review coordinator contact the scout asking for another proposal copy because they lost it. -- Seen the committee reviewing different versions. -- Seen the committee stalled because of missing people. -- Seen the committee have different review findings each review cycle because different people were available and each person has his own agenda and hot button items. -- Seen the committee force scouts thru five review cycles taking three months to complete. Best solution is a quick, face-to-face, review and get it done. The BSA GTA has no discussion of a Eagle project "proposal" BOR. IMHO, council/district proposal approval is a safe guard and should happen quick and easy and should in no way impede the scout. ---------------------- IMLTHO ... in my less than humble opinion

Tread carefully. There is no good answer. The only best answer is to get this closed out quickly. IMHO, I would not hand this off. He's your friend. I'd find a way to get it handled or pay for it myself. THEN THEN THEN ... from this family ... don't accept popcorn/wreath orders unless you get the money up front. To be honest, someone who has a hard time with money will understand this and you probably don't even have to explain it. Just say you'd like payment up front before distribution of product. He'll know what's going on and will appreciate not having it talked about.

From what I know ... no. That is not correct. BUT BUT BUT ... there are often extra safety rules often imposed by council, camp and/or charter org. Strictly speaking, go here for the core BSA rules. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416.pdf You will have to go elsewhere for your council and/or charter org rules.

Well said.

It really depends on the event and how it's handled. If it's fixed space, it's fixed space. If there is flexibility, then we will be flexible. For us, it's really only an issue if it is more than one or two scouts. We can almost always fit in one or two. If it is six or eight, then that is when the big headaches and adult complaints will start. Our "published" cut off is the troop meeting before the camp out. The scouts camp and eat with their patrols. So that's not a big issue. The more definitive cut off date is when the patrol buys food. Usually the night before the camp out. So, the real issue is does the person let us know before their patrol buys food. If they are a patrol of 10 and the 11th shows up, it's not a big headache. If they are a patrol of two and a third shows up, they will be hungry that weekend or need to scrounge from another patrol or the adults. It is hard to say NO because they learn the most camping. Saying NO will teach a lesson, but it can also start the process of separating the scout from scouting as they find something else to do that weekend. Peter

No surprise. I'm actually surprised when any public company can continue to support a faith based organization that is not compatible with standard government policies.

Basementdweller ... Really? BSA GTA 8.0.0.2 "Boards of Review Must Be Granted When Requirements Are Met A Scout shall not be denied this opportunity. When he believes he has completed all the requirements for a rank, including a Scoutmaster conference, a board of review must be granted. Scoutmastersâ€â€or councils or districts in the case of the Eagle Scout rankâ€â€for example, do not have authority to expect a boy to request or organize one, or to “defer†him, or to ask him to perform beyond the requirements in order to be granted one. In a case where there is concern the Scout has not fulﬠlled the requirements for a rank as written, it is appropriate to advise the young man that he might not pass the board and to make suggestions about what he might do to improve his chances for success. It is, however, the Scout’s decision to go ahead with a board of review or not." It even says it is not the responsibility of the scout to make the BOR happen or to even request it. It's the adult leaders responsibility to make sure it happens. But if the scout has requested it, it is his right to have a BOR.

The trouble with attendance policies is that they need to be followed with an recommendation such as "as soon as you fulfill advancement requirements, we strongly recommend submitting for your advancement." IMHO, that is really where many of these failings happen. The scout who thinks he's completed the requirements and the adult leaders who are asking what have you done for me lately. Scouts that are problematic are scouts that are usually busy and get distracted with other activities. They've already fulfilled "requirements" but then are asked to re-fulfill them later. Leaders ask for the requirements to be fulfilled "now" even though the scout had the right to submit his advancement paperwork earlier.

FOR ME AND MY KIDS AND THE SCOUTS IN THE UNITS I REPRESENT ... I can't speak for others.... I think there is a clear boundary. Use the question --> Can you tell the scout what is going to happen without losing the effect of the lesson? The core method of scouting is to take scouts out of their comfort zone as part of an event (bike trips, canoe trips, hiking, camping, etc). It is very very different to setup lessons whose goal from the start is to manipulate their emotions and their behavior. Way in advance of a canoe trip, scouts can learn about packing, planning, working together as a patrol for meals, working together in the canoe to paddle, having three in the canoe so that the middle person has a chance to rest if needed. During the event, they can use those lessons to succeed or fail safely ... I hope. It is a completely different to setup situations that manipulate emotions or behavior to teach a lesson. To take an unknowing scout through a fake situation to manipulate a scout is abuse ... IMHO. And it teaches distrust and manipulation.