fred johnson

Mark Hanncock - "Some people think we are competitors." Not a competitor? You're in denial or you're marketing. TL leaders were mainly former BSA leaders and charter orgs replaced (or switched) to chartering trails edge units, you are a competitor. Web site (http://www.traillifeusa.com/who-we-are/) says the program is outdoor adventures, character and leadership with a Christian focus. You are a competitor. The web site also says TL wants to be the "premier national character development organization for young men ... " with a Christian focus. You are a competitor. The bickering is about how tightly to integrate the "Christian" Sunday school focus. Trails Life is BSA with a "Christian" Sunday School focus. BSA is "reverent" supporting multiple faiths and generally very inclusive. Both BSA and Trails Life are about outdoors, character, leadership and duty to God. They are competing programs. ===================================================== Two questions ... What is the recruitment model? The only membership I've heard about so far are BSA members that switched over to Trails Life. How do you plan to get members other than converting BSA units and members? ===================================================== What camps will you use? Mark Hancock wrote "We don't envision owning our own camps since there are thousands that are very well-managed and can offer some very good high-adventure experiences." Most youth camps are BSA, GSUSA, YMCA or camps for specific churches. Are the "high adventure experiences" to be Trails Life experiences or generic camps that Trails Life units will sign up for individually and/or run their own high adventure experiences?

qwazse ... You need to know the checklist mentality as the starting point. Just as with driving, you need to start with a checklist mentality. As you get comfortable with scouting, then you can go further. But the checklist is still the starting point and the guide to the right method. Plus the checklist mentality exists because of too many leaders that want the discretion so that they can do their own thing, take things a different direction and establish rank requirements not reflected by the BSA program. The way the best SM coaches his SPL and scouts is with open ended questions. But you need deeper understanding so that when issues arise, you know your latitude of options. Only correction ... It's not always a seven year discussion. Hopefully, it is at least a six rank discussion. Peter

Patrol method ... key characteristic ... a set of scouts that want to spend time together and do things together. Our troop is doing patrol method not as well as we did 10 years ago. Fewer scouts. More competition for time. The big change is that leaders restructured patrols and the scouts lost any emotional tie to their own patrol. It's common now for scouts to not know what patrol they are in and that's really sad.

Qwazse ... 50 per troop? I'd be surprised. I'm betting the average is more 15 to 20 per troop. Some may have 30 or 40 but I suspect there are as many 5 or 10 person troops making the membership at best 10,000 by years end ... at best. BSA has two big things going for them. They have the Boy Scouts label and they have the Eagle rank. Nothing else compares in name and stature. In the 1970s, my father and I were in the Indian Guides YMCA program. I am sure no one remembers the recognition program from that and few probably even remember the name Indian Guides. Trail's Life, like 3rd political party, will fade over time and become about as known as the YMCA Indian Guides.

GirlScoutLeader ... I should admit that I would almost NEVER delay a scout because of scout spirit. IMHO, scout spirit is there because we want to promote it and talk about it. Also, the requirement is our safe guard that we can use when we need some excuse that can't be explained elsewhere. Leader ... "I can't sign off on your rank advancement right now. You were just suspended from school for trying to buy pot. That breaks the scout spirit reflected in the oath and law. I know you are dealing with this both at school and at home. So I'm not going to add onto it, but I just can't sign advancement right now. Let's talk again in 30 days and if things are going well then, I'll be glad to sign off on your advancement."

Scout spirit is always a judgement call and IMHO decided jointly with a scout during the scoutmaster conference. For anymore detail, read the Guide To Advancement section 4.2.3.2 Demonstrate Scout Spirit. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf GTA has a very useful quote. "Evaluating Scout spirit will always be a judgment call, but through getting to know a young man and by asking probing questions, we can get a feel for it. We can say however, that we do not measure Scout spirit by counting meetings and outings attended. It is indicated, instead, by the way he lives his life."

I'm hoping to learn more and hoping to learn it's different than I see so far. This expanded emphasis seems very reactionary and scares me. I fear it could really alienate many people. I'd say 50% of our families are okay with the current reverent level but would turn away if it became anymore a Sunday school program. I know in our pack, I'll recommend we leave faith to the family and their religious leaders and ignore any expansion. I really fear this could drive away yet more scouts and put us below the membership critical mass.

Qwazse ... well said ... My only comment is the requirement says "prepare to pass", but not actually pass. The receiving scout could fail. There is no tie between the teaching scout's completing the EDGE requirement and the receiving scout passing his requirement. IMHO, we don't tie the advancement of one scout to the advancement of another scout. That would result with the smart scout picking other smart scouts to teach. Why would a scout want to use EDGE with a scout that has challenges learning? Heck, I'd look for a 17 year old tenderfoot scout who is a friend to teach. Also, I'm not sure what you meant by evaluation. EDGE has explain, demonstrate, guide and enable. We evaluate the scout on whether he completed the requirements. So the evaluation of the teaching scout should be evaluating the teaching scout. You don't evaluate a different scout to decide if another scout passed. I just meant that the OP should talk to the ASM that evaluated the EDGE training. If the ASM only evaluated the receiving scout, IMHO that's wrong. Period. IMHO, the only way to evaluate the EDGE requirement is by observing the EDGE training. Not by evaluating the receiving scout. ........ FYI ... I also think the EDGE requirement is flawed.

Go to bat for this scout. He deserves it. And I can guarantee you that when you succeed this will become one of your own proudest memories of scouting. ----------------------------------- His previous troop leaders dealt with him in bad faith by promoting a culture of slowing up advancement and using old requirements. Then, they went rogue manuvering to transfer the troop to Trail's Life program. Their machinizations damaged kids that had entered a BSA troop. Also, note that adult leaders are there to step in to correct injustice created by other leaders or a messed up situation. And this situation, like many I've seen, is about as messed up as you can get. ----------------------------------- RECOMMENDATIONS - Do ALL of these. - ASAP - Complete the SMC/BOR. REASON - This stops the clock on Life and starts the clock on Eagle. Then you know how much time is needed. Until the Life BOR/SMC is completed, you don't know the scope of the issue. - ASAP - Bring in district advancement chair. Get to know him/her. Get him/her on your side. - ASAP - Bring in the council advancement director too. Get him/her on your side. - Do NOT start the Eagle project until the Life BOR/SMC is done. - Work the advancement so that EVERYTHING is done before the scout turns 18. Only have the time-in-rank and time-in-position-of-responsibliity life. Those are the only two you want extended. - Start documenting each and every reason that justifies the extension. Previous troop leaders tried to not have scouts earn Eagle before 17. Previous troop leaders kept scouts accountable to the scout book from when they joined. Previous troop leaders ignored BSA advancement as they started investing time in creating the Trail's Life program. Previous troop transfered to Trail's Life and left this scout stranded without a home. New troop held the scout accountable to requirements that he was not aware of because of the actions of the previous troop. Scout did the EDGE requirement BEFORE the critical date, but the scout that was taught did not pass the requirements ... etc etc etc. - Keep documenting the reasons and improving the reasons. They will probably need to be sent to BSA national to get this resolved. - Get the parents to document their experience. - Talk to the scoutmaster about the justice and fairness of the situation. Recognizing the moral dilemma, ask if he would back-date the Life BOR/SMC to the day the EDGE training was done. It's the easiest way to fix this mess that IMHO was not the scout's fault. - Talk to the ASM that would not sign off on the EDGE requirements. The scout is required to do EDGE training reasonably well. But that should be for an average scout. The scout should NOT be held accountable to whether the other scout passed the requirements after being trained. The scout is accountable for doing an EDGE training and doing it reasonably well and not accountable for the other scout's advancement. ----------------------------------- If you need an extension, it's going to to go BSA national. You need to have as small of a time frame window and as good of justification as possible.

SSF - Your numbers are not off. Our troop charges $75 per year for membership (advancement cost and registration cost). Campouts cost about $25 to $30 per scout per month. So you are doing $10 per month fee plus $15 per camp out. That's about $25 per person. That is the camp out expense. They are just reducing cost to attend and increasing membership cost. i.e. They are encouraging camping.

packsaddle ... close it. move it. doesn't matter. This thread isn't adding any value anymore.

Merlyn quoting the Bible? Glad that I'm not near him as he'll probably be hit by a bolt of lightening.

GeorgiaMom ... That's what I've seen too. I never said remove references to God or faith. We can show reverence without shoving it down the throat of others. ----------------------------------- Ya know ... from what I've seen on this board, from BSA and from Robert Gates. ... Scouting is a niche anachronism doomed by dysfunctional stubbornness and structural contradictions. - Depend on public schools for recruiting but we don't honor their values. We can't recruit from them. And, we have no other successful model. - Depend on church based charter organizations but not honor the values of the charter organizations and still expect their support. - Hoping to increase membership numbers but alienate the families of potential members with policies stuck in the past that have very little actual effect. Our district venturing chair said it best last month. In the past, scouting was uncool to high school students. He could work that. Now, scouting is viewed as a pariah in high schools and we are raising future parents who view scouting as a pariah. ----------------------------------- It's an easy fix if BSA leaders have the backbone and guts to do it. Make a statement that BSA respects the beliefs and teachings of the supporting charter organizations and that BSA leaves matters of faith and sexuality to the families and the religious leaders of the families. The only policy BSA really needs is that your membership can be revoked if you use BSA as a political platform. ----------------------------------- Until then, we should think about merging troops and merging packs as the membership numbers are just not there and I'm tired of district executives working their butts off trying to increase membership and asking me to invest my volunteer time to support a self-defeating environment. I'll invest the time for me, my sons and my scouts. It's been 14 years of bad public relations. Essentially my whole adult scouting career. It's getting old.

scoutergipper ... Get real. People have opinions. People have thoughts. Many evangelicals view Catholics as "cults". Many evangelicals target Catholics. I see it every Christmas at 1:45am as I leave midnight mass and have a person standing across the street using a bullhorn telling us to repent ... as we leave the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. Same is true of the opposite side as I attended an evangelical service years and the practices and beliefs were way beyond what I was comfortable and would ever want my kids to see until they were old enough to understand. .... There is much to learn. I just really hope that the new program does not over emphasize faith. Faith is important, but the only way our pack and our troop has been able to function is that the pack/troop keep a general reverent atmosphere and to leave the rest to the families. Otherwise, I need to have my kids in a Catholic troop. You need to have yours in an LDS troop. Others in a Lutheran troop. Others can have theirs in an atheist troop, etc, etc etc. So much then for citizenship and so much for ever having any hope of recruiting from schools. I really hope to learn more about the program changes.

Tahawk ... great quotes. Fully agree with them. My oldest son entered with six scouts in his patrol and left with three when he aged out. It was a great experience for him. In those years, the only time patrols were re-organized was when an individual boy wanted to switch and the receiving patrol said sure we'll take ya. I've also been in a troop that switches patrols. Kids with the wrong patch on. Kids that don't know their patrol because it switched last month when they were at a swim meet. As far as I'm concerned, troop leadership (youth and adult) should keep their noses out of patrol membership. Let scouts choose and resolve it themselves.

MB counselors are all over the map as represented in this discussion. Fine. Some counselors want to prove some points not listed in the merit badge requirements. Fine. That's them. You don't have to use them. Go elsewhere. Physical Fitness merit badge was the topic. The only requirement that strictly says to wait to start until the counselor approves it before beginning it is #8 and the requirement is listed at the end of #7. You can't start #8 until #7 is signed off. "Before beginning your exercises, have the program approved by your counselor and parents.". The rest is just pre-work that could be documented. As a counselor, I'd have no trouble if the scout brought me the worksheets and evidence for #1-#7 and then signing them off. Have your son find another counselor who is supportive. Especially, if your son has a condition that is not being served by the attitude of the counselor. Each scout is different. Each counselor is different. That's how it should be.

http://www.bannersonthecheap.com/ We bought one from here recently. Very impressed with price and quality. Funny thing is the stand is way more expensive than the banner. LOL.

Yeah, let the scouts choose their patrols on their own. Don't assign them. Don't even have the SPL assign them. "being stuck with ... not fun, I'm not going." That's what I'd expect out of 50% of the scouts for one camp out and 100% of the scouts if you do it month after month. One big reason scouts do scouting is to be with their friends. Assign the patrols and scouts ditch their patrols to be with their friends. They might cook with them. Might tent with them. But at the first free time they ditch their patrol to be with their friends.

Eagledad .. In my view, this is not a political rant. I am really scared by BSA's coming 2015 changes that escalate the faith component. I am hoping Robert Gates can make big changes. Faith is very important to me, but forcing it more into the program is not a way to be successful.

DCSIMMONS - Boy Scout camps in my area have about 10% female staff. Cub camps have about 40%.

DCSIMMONS... charter org latitude ... that's exactly what I'm suggesting. And it exists now. No scouting unit is forced to take any leader. The leaders are offered up by the charter org. No unit is forced to accept a specific scout as a member. Units can be closed to members of their church. It exists now. I would have zero problem if one scouting unit decided that they wanted to have a boy-only troop. That would be fine with me. I'm sure other units would pick up the slack. KDD - No female leaders or the whole event is canceled. Welcome to the world of venturing... Personally, we've always been able to find female adults to come

SCOUTGRIPPER ... I can respect what you are saying and though we share the same scouting universe, our realities are different. Everything I listed is an issue in my area. "go find an atheist organization" ... That attitude is killing BSA. Life is not clean cut. Many families have been alienated from churches and a specific faith. Many teenagers experiment with atheism. BSA was once the pre-eminent youth organization. Now, we can't recruit from schools and BSA is viewed negatively by many. "BSA v. Dale" was properly decided by the US Supreme Court, but triggered by a bad BSA decision. It's killing BSA membership. It's killing BSA endowments. It's killing BSA good will. We need to get out of the political debates. And when we tell people to go find another organization, that's exactly what they do and many others too. BSA needs to get back to scouting and get out of the political debates.

In the fall of 2011, BSA addressed major problems with the release of the new Guide To Advancement and the new Eagle scout workbook and processes. I was extremely impressed. The advancement changes were major. Professionally thought through. Successfully and fairly smoothly rolled out. Most importantly, those changes successfully addressed current major problems in our scouting district. From what I see so far ... the new BSA changes are because BSA recognizes there are major problems and everyone knows changes are needed. I'm just not sure the changes significant enough and I am concerned they are not the right changes. From what I see, we are just trading existing problems for new problems. - Addressed - Changing cub program to be more "doing" ... "adventures" ... less school ... more outdoors. Great! That's what scouting offers that others don't. Outdoor adventures and experiences. School doesn't. Sports doesn't. That's what scouting is. Growing character and citizenship and physical fitness through an outdoor program. - Not addressed - Broken relationship between packs, troops and crews - Not addressed - Girls are ignored until they are 14. Nothing before then. - Not addressed - Unknown and undervalued venturing awards. - New problem - Escalating "faith" to be in-your-face. BAD IDEA !!!!!!!! - New problem - Age limit escalates existing venturing problems. - New problem - Venturing summit award? Unknown brand. Wait, my son earned the Summit award in Cub Scouts in 2011. ************************************************************************** So ... "IF I WERE ROBERT GATES" ... here's what I would do. ************************************************************************** - REMOVE MEMBERSHIP BARRIERS. Immediately and without discussion. Do criminal background checks. But not any thing else. BSA should choose the charter partners and then trust them. Then, let our charter partners choose the leaders. - LET GIRLS IN all programs. Heck, a large part of summer camp staff are already girls. So they can staff scout camps (teach skills, run events, etc) and be adult leaders, but younger girls can't be members? Huh? How does that work? - PUBLICLY RECOGNIZE CHARTER PARTNER LATITUDE ... choosing leaders ... admitting members ... structuring their program ... etc etc etc. It exists now. And it's okay. A Catholic unit has different values than a public school chartered unit. That's fine. That's how it should be. - LOOK OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES ... Scouting is a world wide movement. How do other countries do scouting? UK fascinates me. Also, LDS units (surprisingly) fascinate me (though I realize that's inside the US). - MERGE UNITS INTO "SCOUTING UNITS" similar to what I understand the UK does. Similar to how LDS works. One administrative committee. One committee chair. Have age based sub-groups. Scout friends pre-school - 2nd grade. Cubs grades 2-5. Boy (or new name) Scouts ages 10-16. Venture scouts ages 14-18. One committee chair. One continuous set of offerings. Sometimes one sub-group will help or work with another sub-group. Someone to always look up to. - ONE PINNACLE RANK. Let it be Eagle Scout as Eagle Scout is the Xerox and Kleenex of outdoor brands. Arrow of light? I'm not sure that's good promoting it as a pinnacle of anything. - LET GIRLS EARN EAGLE SCOUT. - Consistent set of ranks for ages 10-18 for boys and girls. Use the Boy Scout ranks. Everyone knows them and they would fit both sexes. - DO NOT ESCALATE FAITH REQUIREMENTS. Getting kids outside places them in the hands of God. Forcing it to be even more formally part of advancement will turn them off and alienate the scouting program from the general population. Scouting is a subtle program. ************************************************************************** ************************************************************************** What would you do ?????

What is their "rank" in 5th grade? Is "Arrow of Light" now a rank? ... "Oh my son is an arrow of light" scout. Huh? I'm used to Lion, Tiger, Wolf, Bear or Webelos scout. What happened to parallelism? Most ranks are animals. I could justify Webelos as it is the combination of Wolf, Bear and Lion Scout (WeBeLoS). I've already been dealing with over the years explaining that there is no such rank as "Webelos 2". It's just Webelos. And then explaining that "Webelos" was both the singular and plural form was frustrating. (no such thing as Webelo ... always Webelos). So in their 5th grade year, what rank are they? If they join 5th grade, it seems it would be wrong to call them a Webelos scout since they have not earned and are not working on their Webelos badge. This feels like problems are going to breed more changes and re-design. I don't understand the changes yet, but I'm concerned. I also feel AOL was an aware over and on top of Webelos. Not required, but good to work toward.

QUESTION ... Is Akela going away? Or is Ethan just a new character for the book? It was not clear to me.