fred johnson

Your points are well made and I can sympathize. Chuck boxes do help a cleaner camp site, less unpacking/repacking, elevated work surface, etc. Encountered each. Know exactly what you mean. But I'll trade that all for light weight packing that young scouts and old scouts with bad backs can easily carry. Please note it's just one tote per patrol. Not multiple. They also check out a stove separately.

I've promised myself that the next time this happens, I'm just walking out. And I stay sitting when they call my unit. I've seen that done too for friends of scouting or JTE or one of another things. I've hit JTE and FOS plenty of times. But the recognition is done more so that you don't want be one of the group still sitting.

KDD - You are right. It's just that the originally poster included the new memorandum of understanding for Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, LCMS. That document confirms and reinforces the major objection that you yourself listed. Local option in all except sexual orientation. The document explicitly states that LCMS can not use sexual orientation as the basis for denying memborship. Of course, the statement is still vague and creates lots of questions. "Will respect the membership standards" of the BSA. Is that just emotional respect and thus meaningless to practial implementations or does that mean the LCMS promises to use that standard also for membership in their units? Is LCMS promising to accept all orientations into their scouting units? And only dismiss them from the unit if it becomes an issue. That is not a local option anymore. It's a half-[[mule]]'ed local option. "you must accept the scout. But if it becomes a problem that conflicts with your beliefs/teachings, then you can dismiss them." So much for "must" and so much for "local option". ======================= ghjim - This memorandum seems to limit local option.

Not exactly what you wanted, but the best improvement our troop made was when we burned our patrol boxes. We now use rubbermaid tubs that have packing diagrams. They can sit in the rain. They can be washed. They can be dropped without breaking someone's foot. And best of all, one eleven year old scout can carry it. Two at most. Stoves are on a shelf waiting to be checked out separate. Solves the issue of white gas leaking or if a patrol needs multiple stoves. The old patrol boxes were heavy for two adults and required four eleven year old scouts to carry. Major weight savings in the trailer too considering we always have seven patrol tubs with us. Seven of the old patrol boxes would have bent the trailer axle. Each tub has three wash basins, Trail Chef Aluminum Cook Kit (three pots, coffee maker, pans, etc), a cutting board, a fry pan, 1 gallon pitcher, a rolled up set of cooking utensils, measuring cups, etc. Plus anything else each patrol wants to add to their patrol tub. Tubs are labeled by patrol (aluminum foil, zip lock bags, etc). Just a thought.

KDD - My apologies. Yes, your interpretation was right. I was just surprised to see this posted today.

The proposed agreement AZMike posted above is not a local option. It puts membership policy constraints on the charter org. I would not sign up to that agreement.

Agreed. Patients is needed. I want everyone to experience scouting. But if you don't value what my church teaches or at least can show respect for what my church teaches, then open your own scouting unit under an organization with similar values. Let schools, fire departments, parents, etc open scouting groups to reflect their values. The whole idea is charter orgs create a youth program using BSA's structure for the church'es members and for the local community. But we should not ask churches to use the BSA program if it subverts the teachings of the church. Let BSA manage the program structure and materials. Let the charter orgs manage the membership and leadership. Anymore is a mess.

SUMMARY - If my church had to sign that agreement, I'd recommend my church drop the BSA charter. The agreement scares me. It implies an interpretation that applies the new BSA membership rules onto specific units. I always thought units could choose their membership, youth and adult. Most units accept everyone. Some do not. Maybe I was wrong to be sad when churches have drop their BSA charter. Now from reading the above memorandum, it seems those churches may have been justified and right. The above agreement says the Lutheran M.S. church will not deny membership to a scout based on sexual attraction alone. But clearly stating such an orientation is promotion. Going thru the teenage years and exporing sexuality is promotion. Having a boyfriend is promotion. All those actions say that it's okay and normal and in the face of churches that do not support, teach or believe that. Instead, the agreement requires some further action called "promotion" or other to trigger removal from the troop.

I've always been continually amazed at the hard bullheadedness of volunteers who know better than the organization that they profess to love so much.

Certain rules you MUST follow or there are penalties. Speed limit. Seat belts. Others are guidelines. But this ordinance? I'm not sure I'd pay too much attention to it. Door to door? I'd like to see the the police officer who will write a ticket to a cub / boy scout for selling boy scout popcorn ? I'd even take that one to court and have my son represent himself. And I'd call the city attorney to confirm the process for how my 9 year old or 12 year old represents himself in court. OTHER IDEA - Do you have adults who live in that burb and belong to a church or non-profit? See if one of them will write a letter on non-profit leader-head that says "Our is sponsoring Scout unit ### fall fundraiser." It doesn't really need to mean anything at all. It just means that that church is sponsoring the event. ========================= But on the general philosophy of it? Units of government have a right to establish rules for inside their territory that benefit the citizens of their territory. The city streets and sidewalks are paid by city residents. Why shouldn't the city organizations be ones that benefit from their use? ... But I'd still ignore the rule. On the flip side ... The US Supreme Court has ruled other ways at times having to do with non-citizens still receiving benefits. 1982 Plyler vs Doe. And others. Very interesting topic.

Keep his blue cards tucked in his BSA handbook. And/Or get a handbook cover and put the blue cards in a zippered pocket in the cover. The completed requirements should be initialized on the card.

Cub Scout "ranks" are very different than Boy Scouts. Boy Scout ranks are sequential and earned. Cub Scouts are "IN THEIR RANK" because of their school grade and spend the year completing that rank's requirements and thus earning the patch that indicates they completed the rank's requirements. So while a Boy Scout can't be a life scout and work toward Eagle without earning all the previous badges in sequence, a Cub Scout can work only on his current grade's rank requirements. Plus the Cub Scout is already that rank and can claim to have been a Wolf, Bear or Webelos without having ever completed all the requirements for any rank.

We are starting the recharter process. We are dropping all non-contact committee members except the bare minimum number needed to recharter. I wish I could buy the Scouting magazine for them. For scouts, our cost is $36 now (boy's life too). When we created our policies, the cost was $22 per scout ($12 boy's life + $10 membership) Our policy was that if they might continue, we'd recharter them. Now, we are purging them from our roster. We have to do that. Our troop is essentially a 25 to 30 scout troop now. We have a SM + 6 ASMs + 6 committee memberships. We've shrunk significantly as our surrounding packs have shrunk. Our recharter cost for one year of BSA membership is about $1300. Policy change - We have scouts who have not paid their dues for years and we ask and ask. We will NOT recharter them this year. Policy change - We have more committee members than required. We can save $24 per person for each we do NOT recharter. We can save significant funds.

You mentioned that you only asked for the BSA membership cost with the application. Later you ask for unit dues. The trouble is the 2nd year, 3rd year, etc. The unit dues need to include BSA membership cost because the "unit' pays that cost when the "unit" recharters. Individuals do not repay a membership costs.

I must have a counter opinion. I found VIRTUS to be a much better training than BSA YPT. I did not find the videos that dated and the discussion / training was very helpful. The warning signs. The statistics. Very eye opening. A few years ago a local scoutmaster was arrested and I swear if any of the parents had seen VIRTUS I'd have hoped they would have recognized the signs.

Topic is not really about round table as much as one activity completing multiple requirements. Double counting. Been there. Dealt with it. Been on both sides of the fence. **** I'm more concerned about the quality of the scout program and helping the scouts grow than about inferring things about other volunteer's integrity. That just doesn't seem scout-like. **** The "double counting" that gets me is where requirements are completed because they've done that in school or elsewhere. It's probably legit because the requirements do not all say "in a den activity" or " as part of a scouting event". So if the kid did it and It was at school but it's done. But if you don't agree with that, what about a home schooled kid who uses a MB book to learn? Should he get credit in scouts too because it's for his home school? Are home school student different than public school students? My big issue is when it weakens the program. I've had parents let me know their scouts won't be at a Webelos den meeting because the scout already completed it the activity at school. I've got an issue with that in that you either support your den or you are only looking out for yourself and that's not scout-like. Double counting is probably okay too unless it explicitly says to not count items used as part of another requirement. BSA does call it out when it's required.

dedkad ... We've tried the Lion Kindergarten program. Run away from it. Too young. To squirrelly. Lowers the maturity of the pack. As far as I'm concerned, start the program in 2nd grade again.

Very well said. The EBOR is not the time to present a new standard to the scout. Create a feedback loop to the unit leaders and ask them what happened. Help the unit leaders develop ways to deal with and improve such advancement.

Our pack is seriously thinking about not recruiting Tigers next year and definitely not recruiting Lions either. It's just too young and it's hard for them to sit thru a pack meeting. I think it's a good idea. Cub Scouts lasts too long and is not the main show. Cub Scouts is just a warm up for Boy Scouts.

Don't worry too much about it. The only reason we have Tigers is because we are told to recruit Tigers. As far as I'm concerned, I'd be okay if Cubs didn't start until 2nd grade. Let kids try out sports and other activities. Then when they are ready for fire, knives, archery, shooting sports and outdoor activities, join scouts. I really believe that recruiting too young makes scouts look like little kids day care and it's not. The best scouting years (both from fun and adventure and also from the impact we can have on the kids) are when the scouts are 12 to 16. But, they tend to drop out before then. For many reasons. ================ As for the original posting topic .... So ya don't have any / many Tigers. Don't sweat it. If ya don't have enough adult help, gear back to a manageable program. Not enough scouts, join with another pack. I'm afraid that I've seen 10 years of bad recruitment because of political turmoil around BSA. As a volunteer, I don't have the time or energy to fight the worlds problems. And I will not damage my family or my kids experiences grumbling at the mess. All I can do is run a great program and let a great program end up recruiting kids. After that, If the kids don't come, at least my family, my sons and the kids in our pack have had the best experience possible.

Very sturdy ... very durable ... but as always treat gently. - If an option, have the track anodized. Makes it look nice longer by avoiding small scratches. - Buy some foam to put between the tracks when you store them. - Alignment. Only problem we have had is reassembly and alignment. The issue is that each track section is made up of one piece per lane bolted together. All are joined at right angles. No triangles. Thus the track can "shift" a little. That requires loosening bolts, realigning and re-tightening. This is easy to fix if you are careful when you pack it and also firmly tighten the bolts after alignment. PRO - Nice smooth surface. Consistent times across lanes. Looks nice. Impressive. Relatively small for storage. CONS - Heavy as a beast when carried as one package. Even heavier if you build a storage box. Give yourself an extra 15 to 30 minutes to align the track when setting it up.

Point taken. Legalistically, "Scouts" / "Scout" is not a trademark. But as you acknowledge, it is protected and essentially as good as a trademark. And many companies are under congressional charters. Girl scouts. Red Cross. American Legion. Etc. As for trademark though.... http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/Licensing/Protecting%20the%20Brand/Boy%20Scouts%20of%20America%20Trademark%20Listing.aspx It seems very clear though that "Hacker Scouts" is trying to leverage the good reputation developed over 100 years of Boy Scouts. BSA does have registered trademarks in Cub Scout(s), Boy Scout(s), Venturing Scout, Sea Scouts, Eagle Scout, Boy Scouts of America, Scout Shop, Scout Stuff, Scoutmaster, Scouting USA. Hacker scouts knew very well what they were doing and that is why they choose the name. They just didn't think anyone would care. But BSA needs to defend the brand.

Ya I must admit ... my first reaction would be a red flag to watch out for that volunteer.

It was a very valid defense. ---- You can create your own Pizza Hut, but ya can't call it Pizza Hut. ---- You can create your own McDonalds, but ya can't call it McDonalds. ---- You can sell your own Kleenex, but ya can't call them Kleenex. ---- You can creating your own scouting organization, but ya can't use scouts. The Oakland group was leveraging the goodwill and reputation of the BSA program to create their own credibility. They wanted to ride the coattails of another group and muddy the waters on which program is which. ........................ DWise1_AOL is just another faith hater damaged by their own lives and now looking to damage others. It's not that they wanted to actually create another program as much as they want to change ours. Dwise1_AOL ... May I suggest ... Atheist Youth Adventurers, AYA. ... Atheist Pioneers? ... Or UUA youth ?

It is a hard dance to dance today. In this situation I'm all for the what's best for the scout and the "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy. BUT ... you also need to respect that scouting unit is "owned" by the charter organization and is a branch of that organization and reflects the values of that organization. Some charter organizations want to keep things at arms length. Others may want it differently. IMHO, it is hard to show an example that contradicts what your charter org teaches. As for the original posters comment ... live-in girl friend? Ya know ... Is it two month live-in girl friend or ten year live-in girl friend? Do people pretty much accept them as married? We had a pack leader who brought his two month girl friend on the camp out. She came and camped. No one made an issue of it. But in our troop it would have been different as many kids are home schooled and / or from evangelical churches. It would have been an issue with their parents. No pun but Holy Hell would have been raised from the example set. **************************** Be creative. If you think it won't be an issue, fine. But if it will be an issue, then re-design the event or find a work around or talk to them nicely.