fred johnson

I again sit corrected. I saw so many "2"s that I read it as 2 from section 2. "Do requirement 1 or requirement 2. If you choose requirement 2, complete 2a plus two more from 2b–2d." To be honest, as a den leader, I'd dance around that requirement ... and still leave it to the families. Yeah, it's written as den leader, but I'm not going to step into that mess. I've got evangelical parents who view Catholic faith as evil and I've got Catholic parents that view evangelical services as flaky. Then, you mix in other religions and none practicing families. My number one goal is to give kids a good experience and to keep them in scouting so they join Boy Scouts. Plus, we meet in a public school and recruit from a public school. Scouts will get enough "faith" education as it exists now in Boy Scouts and through discussion with their own parents. I think this will quickly become an "adventure" den leaders punt on.

Dumb question ... Do people thread the cub scout belt through the loops on the pants? Or is it just supposed to be worn over the pants where a welt would go. Just wondering.

I fear BSA using "Duty to God" being used to shore up traditional supports will alienate even more people. If this is the direction BSA wants to go, then BSA members need to stop complaining about not having access to schools. Personally, I think BSA is off track here. My faith is very important to me and making sure my kids have faith is very important too. But I think BSA is mis-directed in over-emphasizing the faith component. Scouting is not a Sunday School program. It definitely has faith components. But trying to over emphasize those will just push people away. And, I'm getting tired of BSA alienating people. It's hard to say you teach citizenship if you alienate people so often.

Belt loops ... Can't there be a better display mechanism. I NEVER seen any of our cubs wear them and rarely do they wear belts.

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pr...Transition.pdf .... There is much to learn. The above link (last page) has "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" on the title section. Why? KDD - The above document (last page) has "Faith in Action" for Webelos and for Arrow of Light are both followed with "family based". KDD ... http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pr...quirements.pdf says "or family" for adventures. So den is not required for adventures. As for specific requirements, there is a path to only handle it in the family setting for each rank. Sounds like leaving it to families is still an option.. Given how diverse our dens are, I'd fully recommend letting it be part of the family activities and when the parents say it's done it's done. I'm glad it's still handled that way. I am concerned though that "Faith In Action" will make Cub Scouts look like a Sunday School program and alienate more people.

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/program_update/pdf/CS%20Program%20Transition.pdf Talks about two of the Webelos adventures being Faith In Action. I want to learn more about this. Right now, we leave pretty much all faith discussions to family. Does this mean these two adventures will be demoted to family level just as the current ones are so demoted. When I think about my current Webelos den, I have Catholic, Lutheran, Hindu and non-practicing families. I look forward to learning more about how this will work. From reading the documents on the site, it looks like emphasis on faith is being escalated. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/programupdates.aspx

Akela ... kids and most parents barely know the story anymore. It's not as famous as it was in the 1920s.

I absolutely hate the worksheets. Worksheets change a potentially interesting topic into mundane work. So much for lighting a fire for the rest of their lives. Plus, scouting isn't school. Scouting is exploring and getting experiences. It's not paperwork. IMHO, worksheets are a way to let the counselor off the hook from spending time with the scout. That said though ... if a scout filled it out ... I'd accept it. the kid did the work. I'd be sad that we my interactions with the scout were reduced to reviewing paperwork. But he did the work and I'd give him credit ... after "discussing", "sharing", "showing", .... ... For your son's situation, run away. Find someone else. You don't want your son to associate with that person anyway. Heck, you might find the next counselor won't talk to your son until he has already filled out the worksheet. Counselor attitudes are everywhere on the map. But you don't want your son dealing with mean spirited ones.

St. Croix river is my favorite river for an easy canoe trip. I've done a bit on the Namekagon. Cannon river is nice too. But St. Croix is gorgeous especially if you canoe when the leaves are turning colors. When water levels are right and the weather cooperates, the river travels at a rate that you almost don't need to paddle. It can be a nice relaxing trip and a perfect first trip for young scouts. Random comments ... - Maps. http://www.nps.gov/sacn/planyourvisit/maps.htm - Water levels. http://www.nps.gov/sacn/planyourvisit/riverlevels.htm - Water levels. They change alot on this river based on weather in season and there are times I would not take young scouts on the river. In spring, speed, debris and hidden dangers can be bad but some rapids almost disappear because there is enough water. In late September / October, the low water can cause rapids to be just rocks to get canoes wedged on. - Watch water levels. Example ... St. Croix River S100.8 through S96.7 is painful "if you take the wrong turn" onto the Kettle River Slough during low water. You will end up walking your canoe over rocks for two miles and twisting your ankles on each rock. Not fun. Made that mistake. - Plan your water. Not all stopping points have potable water. You can purify, but it's nice to have easy fresh water after a long day on the river. - Party spots. St. Croix river camping spots can be be popular and used by groups just wanting to drink. We usually look for camp spots that are unpopular. #1 Don't have water. #2 Don't have easy road access. Example ... Wisconsin side of S71.8 Sunrise Ferry Landing. Road is a good hike away from camp spots and no water. We've only once had someone camp there with us once and there are five large camping spots. For water, we canoe across the river and down a bit to the Minnesota side. Everyone sends their water bottles with and jugs with the assigned canoes to get water. - Car security. We've shuttled cars back and forth between our launch points. We've had good luck parking in the Wild River state park at the canoe rental location. And we plan to leave the river there. Cars have never been broken in there. Other spots are not safe. Example ... never leave a car overnight at S89.7 H70 Landing. Always an issue. - Wind. I swear there are specific sections of the river during specific times of day that are bad for wind. Mid-morning S66 through S62 are some of the worst. Wind wips down the slopes onto the river. But it's all relative and there are tricks to deal with it. - We usually do our trip the last week the camp rangers will rent canoes to us. Last week in September or 1st week in October. Few people are on the river at that time and it feels like you are alone in the wilderness instead of on a popular tourist trek.

Our cost is about $130 to $140 per scout per year. We price dues at the cost of paying for rechartering, books and advancements. We use the fundraiser to pay for the program. So the quality of the program is a direct result of the success of the fundraiser. This year our dues were $50 and we asked each scout family to sell $200 in the fundraiser. Some sold zero. Some sold thousands.

Fully agree ... BSA needs to take back the narrative. BSA is the best youth organization this country has ever seen and is now viewed negatively by the majority of the people (a recent poll). The trouble is BSA also needs to get it's own house in order. Charter organizations who have different stances on these issues. And those charter orgs are signing up the leaders. Do you expect those charter orgs to apply BSA member standards? Do you expect charter orgs to go on witch hunts? To some degree, BSA needs to decide what they want to be? A religious organization for a specific sub-set of religions. A religious org for all religions? Or a civic organization? Or somewhere in-between. I fully agree BSA needs to take back the narrative. But BSA also needs to do some house keeping and updating.

"Do you have a Scout troop or something else" is a worthless mean sentence and just meant to shame others and cause division. "Boy Led" is a bad term. Not because it's wrong but because I see way too many leaders (as done above) use it to diss other troops. Too rarely does it communicate any meaningful purpose. AND, I see too many leaders take it to the extreme and end up drivings away with way too many bad experiences. AND too many leaders confuse "boy led" and "boy run". EagleDad hit it on the head. "Boy Led" is about knowing what we want to teach. Responsibility. Leadership. Independence. The implementation needs to vary widely with the maturity of the scouts (and also the adult leaders). IMHO, I want to keep the end vision of "boy led" in my head, but work it a few steps at a time. And as scouts and leaders change, those steps repeat and change all the time. Scouting is a game with a purpose. Game = fun. Purpose = the troop's meetings, events and activities are used as teaching experiences. Those experiences need to be adjusted for the maturity and capability of the scouts. IMHO ... we need to take the view that the youth leadership positions are for the scouts to experiment and learn. In another words, SPL is SPL to learn and grow. SPL is not SPL because he's a great leader and really good at running meetings. So you will NEVER have a troop that consistently runs smoothly as fully "boy led" program. ... Scoutmasters who say "The Boys aren't there yet" is a different issue. Sometimes if you have low expectations you get low results. Sometimes if you don't use every moment possible to teach you end up having scouts that don't know how to do things. Sometimes you just need to let the scouts try ... and then work with them so they succeed.

My first son's Webelos den had 100% cross over. Second son had 100%. Third son 80%. This den is different. I'll be lucky if 75% cross and they will be crossing into three different troops. It's not that the boys are high achievers. They are good kids. It's the parents. After I had mentioned that I want to keep sign-offs to the den leader instead of the parents, later I get a call on the phone from a Webelos scout. He wanted to let me know the exact completed requirements that were done (badge X requirement #.#). He had a list of about 20. I could hear his dad coaching him the background. What am I to do? All I could was thank him and let him know how much I appreciated him working on these and getting them done. And then I recorded them. Really no different than the parent signing off on the requirements. I may have been smiling, but I was really upset. The parent wanted certain results. So he circumvented the intention and met the letter of the request. The other parent is finding Webelos activity pin opportunities at the same places when she takes her older son to get Boy Scout merit badges done. There are plenty of places offering badges. I think it comes down to approach. Do you put the experiences first or advancement first. You can be highly driven both ways. But I want my sons to go for the experiences and their ranks and merit badges reflect those experiences.

This is my 4th time through Webelos and it's a lot less fun this time. The big difference is the advancement attitude. I have two families that are motivated and driving each individual requirement for their own boys and want each individual requirement tracked in a 3rd party advancement tracking web site. That's fine. It's their right. I'm used to having things recorded in the back of the Webelos book and I like it that way. But I'm okay with parents emailing me when pin X requirement 3a subsection four is done. My issue is that it has really broken the fellowship the scouts experience in the den. The previous three times the parents became best friends for life. With this group, it's really stressed and fractured. I have Webelos that come to meetings saying "oh I've already done this one" even though the den hasn't touched it yet. Some have used it as the reason to choose between competing events. I wish my last son could have gone through what "I THINK" is the new program coming. I think it would help.

Hear's the real question ... is he a signer on the checking account? If not, don't add him. Control of the money means control of the unit. He doesn't like it, work with the council to create a unit under a real charter org. Then write a check transferring the money to that charter org. What is he going to do? Sue? He has no legal standing as the entity does not exist.

No legal entity? That's bad. The "parents of" probably had the best of intentions, but the ball was dropped. That's why a bricks-n-mortar charter org is useful. They already exist. Another reason "parents of" organizations are bad is that parents and volunteers turn over through the years. A charter organization is probably going to last longer than any volunteer. As such, you can have better and smoother continuity of charter org infrastructure. Plus doing it yourself is more work than existing under a charter org who already has everything already in place. --------------------------------------------------------- ---- Checking account? What type of account is it? Is it an old long-standing account (before the new rules - our checking account was opened in the 1970s... it had no SSN or EIN on it until we changed banks)? Or is it a new account that has an SSN/EIN on it. If your troop has substantial assets, someone has those assets. Who? I'm betting the checking account is still under the defunct charter organization. Eventually someone might ask why a defunct non-profit still has money coming in. Banks do send account reports to the government.. ---- Sales tax. If you are not a non-profit, you owe sales tax on fundraisers. Also, "someone" owes income tax. ---- Income tax. If you are not a non-profit, you owe income tax. Or as a corporation, corporate taxes. And state and federal IRS filings. ---- Liability. If something happens, the leaders (charter org agreement signer, CC, SM and others) are personally liable for issues that happen. There is not even the smallest shield in this situation. There is no one with deep pockets to protect these "volunteers". ------------------------------------------------- Hire a good business accountant. If you really want to stay as a "parents of" organization, hire an accountant who will do your tax and non-profit filings. It will cost you money, but it is well worth it. I've run businesses before and tried for years to do my own paperwork. Did it good for years, but it only took one screwed up year to realize I wanted someone else to do it. It was way cheaper than my time and my risk. ------------------------------------------------- As for the guy who's name is on the charter org agreement "owning" the troop, you could let him know you are okay with it and just ask for his SSN so that your information is complete when you call the IRS. Name and address are good, but SSN saves a minute. He might decide to be cooperative.

I can sympathize with both sides of this. Rock band? Yeah, I'd let my scouts go back to camp. Their choice. How about the Sunday night camp fire program at summer camp? Includes information. Recognition. OA callout. We strongly encourage our scouts to go. But if they are set on returning to camp, I don't think we'd stop them. But depending on what my guts says about the situation, we may send two adults back to camp too.

Having a bricks-n-mortar charter org is useful. Resources include more than just a building. How about an accountant. IRS tax filings. Liability insurance. Plus, having a real organization that is choosing the leaders. And it makes it easier for me to get my name "OFF" the organization when I leave. Plus, the charter org vouches for the leaders. If the leaders create the organization and choose themselves as the leaders, it's circumventing the intent and the structural protections. I'd expect BSA doesn't like them either because it could expose BSA to liability if a court viewed the charter organization as not really existing and then all liability falls back to BSA. Especially if all the "friends of" officers were also BSA registered leaders. It could be argued that the local BSA council knew or should have known that there was no real charter org overseeing the program. With that said ... most charter orgs don't do anything anyway and don't even know their own leaders.

Sunday night - I am sure it won't work for some. let them do Monday or another night. But I see many many empty churches on Sunday night. And it would work well for me and my family. Agreed that "cool" and "loser" does not necessarily apply to scouting. I'm just saying that I'm very comfortable now suggesting that scouts either are able to work within the boundaries or suggesting they explore other options. Both behavior issues and diagnosed issues.

Personally ... I think it would help to move meetings to Sunday night. Gives a whole weekend to complete homework before the scout meeting and removes the parents that hold their kids back because of homework. Sports conflicts are mostly gone too. So are school conflicts. Plus, scouting is a social event. Sunday night does seem appropriate and the least conflicts. Plus, scouting does have a reverent side. Sunday seems appropriate from that aspect too. I'd let me sons join a troop that met Sunday nights. The issue that is in my mind more and more is about "scouting being for losers". Scouting has earned the loser tag. Trying to be everything to everyone. Parents using scouting as their therapy program for their anti-social kids. I feel like I'm becoming insensitive, but I've got to protect my troop. I'm comfortable now telling parents that scouting has certain boundaries and if your son can't behave within those boundaries, you should try something else. Perhaps go try baseball or soccer. Scouting has also earned it from the aspect that scouting starts so young now that high school kids just don't know what it's about. I've seen more than one time kids are playing cards in the evening under a shelter during a torrential down pour. It's a great story for them to tell later and takes character. But kids that drop out in 1st through 5th grade just don't really know what scouting is about. So it's viewed as a little kid program. It really does need a strong marking campaign.

How do you run your troop and pack committee meetings? I've tried to use the BSA agenda format which is similiar to this. "BSA committee" approach ---- Call to order ---- Welcome ---- Approval of previous minutes ---- Reports ---- ---- Scoutmaster ---- ---- Secretary ---- ---- Outdoor / activities coordinator ---- ---- Treasurer ---- ---- Advancement coordinator ---- ---- Chaplain ---- ---- Training coordinator ---- ---- Equipment coordinator ---- Old business ---- New business ---- Announcements ---- Adjournment Most people don't do "reports". They use the time to raise any topic that interests them. The result is a meeting that bounces around and seems very dis-organized. I find the following to be much more successful. "Walk the calendar" approach ---- Call to order ---- Welcome ---- Solicit hot topics ---- ---- Not to be discussed immediately but to be planned into the meeting. ---- Walk the calendar ---- ---- Start a month in the past (reviewing how things went) ---- ---- Continue a few months past anything we might care about discussing ---- ---- For each calendar entry, review plans, commitments and coordinators. ---- ---- The more imminent -> the more careful review. ---- Announcements ---- Business - new and old ---- Go around the table (watching to make sure we cover these topics) ---- ---- Treasurer ---- ---- Outdoor / activities ---- ---- Advancement ---- ---- Chaplain ---- ---- Training ---- ---- Equipment ---- Adjournment I've had great success with walking the calendar approach, but at best limited success with the traditional approach.

"Paper eagle" is an insulting term that I really hate hearing. It reflects more on an unworthy leader.

I don't think you can blame BSA corporate, politics, publicity or competition for more than part of the decrease. IMHO, BSA is caught in national trends. Kids don't fish on their own anymore. Zero. When I was in junior high school, kids went fishing all the time. Average age of Boundary Waters visitors has nearly doubled in forty years from 26 to 45 (or higher now). DNR statistics in our state that show in the ten years from 2004 to 2014 that fishing is down 18.4%, hunting down 11%, cross country skining down 50%, and wildlife viewing down 22%. These are society trends.

The awards / incentives need to be less than significant. I remember reading about IRS and incentives before. The key was that incentives are okay if they are structured to increase the overall fundraising benefit to the non-profit. Much like hiring a company that are experts in fundraising and they take 20% of the raised funds. So if you want the incentive to $50 off dues, then the raised funds would need to be at least $500 in sales resulting $250 in cash for the non-profit. From what I've read, that's by the rules and honest. If you want to say the scout can sell $100 resulting in $50 cash for the troop and then the troop will cover $50 in dues, that's not by the rules and not honest. ................................ The simple fact is raising kids is expensive. AND ... Scouting is not cheap. So people want to use a non-profit fundraiser to benefit their own kids and not equally the rest of the population of the troop. That's not honest and not worthy of scouting.

Pack versus troop. The goal with the pack is to make the experience as smooth and positive as possible. We want them to continue to grow in scouting. In Boy Scouts, we are transitioning to more mature youth who can start to remember things and figure out solutions if they forget their stuff. So in the troop, mess kits provided by scouts. For pack, the pack supplies disposable eating stuff. Paper products whenever possible. Plastic for forks, knives and spoons. I'm happy when we can get a Cub and his dad camping. i'm not going to nitpick the little stuff.