fred johnson

This triggered a bad memory of a troop that used to do patrol lines after camp. The SM taught the SPL that to drill "patrol lines" to drop some trash on the ground after the patrol line had passed. It did drill the details of patrol lines, but it was one of several issues that broke my trust for leaving my son with their troop.

It would be interesting to see how that resolves itself. It is hard to see how an organization that has a statement of faith is not a faith based organization. It's hard to see an organization that has 70+ percent of the units under faith based organizations not having a faith component. Of the civic charter orgs, it's a mix. Many are "a group" of generic people that could be using scouting partially because of the faith component. The largest real civic organization is the American Legion which in it's own preamble recognizes the influence of "Almighty God" and declares allegiance to God and nation. Interesting how BSA can not be viewed as a faith based or at least faith supporting organization.

Then BSA would be exempt.

Ya know ... nothing in the original post points to a bad troop. ---- With any organization, some nights are good and some are bad. Unless things are critically bad, it takes more than a few meetings to get a feeling for it. ---- Troops often change personality as the SPL changes. Usually the SPLs who I think will do great are not the best and those that I worry about shine. Go figure. ---- if you don't have a show stopper issue with the troop, then work it out and help them be a better troop. Your CO supported you in your cub scouting year. Show support for your CO and their Boy Scout troop.

Agreed. Your next immediate contact should be the district advancement coordinator. If that does not work, contact the council advancement coordinator. Don't wait. it's your son. I'm sure he's worth it.

Not written down? We'd count it. Approval can be pre or post as long as it's service to others. I fully agree. It's about teaching scouts to do a good turn. I worry the bank book approach to advancement may teach the wrong thing at times.

Thank you Sentinel947... I was frustrated and got suckered in. My apologies.

Brian ... Get a grip. You have been beating up BSA because it's a faith based organization for twenty years. You've called many people bigots, bullies, hypocrites, hitler and etc. It's easy to find entries from you since 1995 and earlier. Merlyn LeRoy 2002-12-27 ... "You'll have to point out the "good" in a youth program that has as a central tenet that only theists can be "the best kinds of citizens" (and it's particularly egregious when the government unlawfully charters such discriminatory units) Merlyn LeRoy ... 2005-08-31 ... "Sure - don't you think it was unethical of the BSA to have public schools run their "no atheists allowed" private clubs for decades? " Merlyn LeRoy ... 2005-09-01 ... To Ed Mori ... "However, I have no interest in trying to explain anything to you, because YOU CAN'T LEARN." Merlyn LeRowy ... 2005-09-05 ... to Bob White ... "Yet hypocrites like yourself will wail about the Boy Scouts being treated badly - simply because they are now being treated the same as any other organization that practices religious discrimination." My biggest mistake is getting suckered into your 20 year hate fest and not blocking you so I can't see your comments.

Merlyn ... You're the Stalin of the web era. You accuse others of treachery when you can't live side by side with those who disagree with you. Instead, you want to kill and destroy. You accuse others of hatred and bigotry when that's exactly what you're doing. Tolerance is a two sided street and you throw accusations cheap and quick because I think differently than you. BSA should remove barriers to homosexuals. Fine. That's a good idea because even though the large majority of faiths do not support it, there is not a 100% consensus. Let each charter org decide. But my charter org does not agree with it and I don't either. So don't force us to adopt your beliefs. But we still accept anyone as members. The issue is when you try to change me or my charter org so that you are more comfortable. I don't agree with you. Get over it and move on. Merlyn ... you are a hater and just too intense on your position to realize it.

This is just another version of hate and it's the same ugly destructive hate that Merlyn LeRoy shows all the time in these forums. He's not a scouter and only is here to be a thorn in the side of others who disagree. I agree. Allow gay members to join. Then we don't discriminate. That is what most churches do too. Sure you can be a member but realize that we believe that the way you lead your life is wrong. It's not hypocritical. It's just being open to letting anyone be a member. Again it only becomes an issue when the purpose of one organization is used to advocate for another purpose ... like Merlyn keeps doing.

Service hours are not "awarded". I really hate that thinking. Scouter leaders are not sitting on high with benevolence to those surfs in their troop. We view it as service hours are "recognized". Have you helped others? And as hard is this candle light vigil is, it is EXACTLY the intent of the service hour requirement. People were in need. They helped. It was the right thing to do. Of course it fulfills the requirement. Anything less is sending the wrong message. Service hours always help people in need. Homeless. Hungry. Sometimes the people are just harder to recognize such as people who are tired from hiking and so we create benches to help them rest. Or land scape a non-profit that helps others in need.

BSA GTA addresses this. And it is re-iterated in BSA advancement news. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/advancement_news/512-075_AugSept.pdf BSA does not require pre-approved service projects. It is helpful but it is not a requirement. Also, BSA does not require planning service projects and BSA explicitly states it does not require planning service projects. So, our troop interprets "approved" as pre or post. As long as the scoutmaster is good with it being a service to others that meets the intent. I think that is what the requirement means.

Okay. I just read what "MyBoy" wrote on Sunday 9:02pm. ... "He said in a meeting a few weeks ago to all the scouts 'no camp out, no rank advancement'. I'm pretty sure that's his beef." Yeah, that's an SM trying to solve a perceived problem using authority he does NOT have. You want scouts to camp. Make it interesting. Make it new and exciting. Make it well organized. Scoutmasters can NOT use their advancement as a tool to manipulate. Please note that there are zero camping requirements for Star, Life and Eagle. Potentially, you can complete all camping related activity BEFORE earning Tenderfoot. Requirements for 2nd class and 1st class say "since joining the troop....". Star, Life and Eagle have no such requirements. Merit badges can be completed at any time. As posted, your situation is addressed in section 4.2.3 of http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf. Troops can require a level of participation BUT there are limits. - Is it written down? Was it written down and communicated BEFORE you son earned his Life rank. Advancement requirements apply based on the start of the next rank. So those expectations written down and communicated on or before your son had his Life rank board of review (not court of honor). - If it was documented, but had changed since he joined the troop, you might be able to challenge that troop expectations have shifted and it was not a commitment he agreed to when he joined the troop. Was he supposed to quit the troop and his friends because the troop leadership had a new plan? - Is it reasonable? 100% is absolute and by definition not reasonable. Period. You might face arguments that POR was not completed because he did not camp. If that is the case, it is the responsibility of the scoutmaster to communicate that early and during the POR. Otherwise, the scout has completed his POR time requirement. GTA section 4.2.3 is so so so written for this type of situation.

We only have a short story from the original poster but ... ... There is nothing to test. ... There is no reason to delay if the scout has completed the requirements. ... There is no reason to ask for a list of everything the scout has done in the last two years. Testing? I assume you were tying to find a position to justify what the SM is doing.

I really like what packsaddle wrote. I really fear the Webelos 2 den leaders who want to use B&G as the crowning event focused solely on the Webelos 2.

Wish you the best ... I've been in your situation and I know many many others currently in it. Your stuck because you are a registered leader for that CO, but you can't "fully" support the CO. You are grateful to the CO, but you have to passively subvert their efforts by being the contact point for other units. In fact, when I read your notes which are honest and well written, I cringe. I cringe because I see walls blocking communication being put up and I see hard feelings that will inevitably develop. It happens all the time in scouting. The fault is not on you or the troop or your CO. I fully put it on BSA. We don't see this issue when scouts progress between Tiger, Wolf, Bear or the start of Webelos. We don't see it between any of the boy scout ranks. Yet we do see scouts transfer now and then between units if there is an issue. We see it because of the horribly designed Webelos transition.

Generally VigilEagle is right. The risk is extremely low. Odds are the IRS won't pursue it because the groups are too small. But that makes it an all the more interesting. It's a classic moral dilemma. An ethics challenge. Do you do follow the rules even though no one is looking? If you don't agree with the rules, do you work to change the rules while being compliant or do you just ignore and break the rules? Do you approach the decision with odds are no one will get hurt or that we do the right thing? Is it okay because we don't like the IRS rules. heck, no one likes the IRS to begin with. It's interesting because we claim to help scouts do the right thing and to be good citizens. I'm not perfect on this point either. I'd rather see it different. But it's what it is. So what do we do about it. How do we make our decisions?

Yeah, lots of units have ISAs. I have not heard of a scout unit fined. But other groups have been affected. here's the one that I originally learned from. The booster clubs agreed to pay the fine because the IRS threatened to go after the parents for not reporting earned income. So instead, the 501c agreed that they screwed up and thus paid the fine. One of the fines was $60,000, larger than the annual budget of the booster club. http://www.kentucky.com/2008/12/16/628251/audits-trouble-bryan-station-high.html Our troop sells so little it's really not a big issue. Our pack ... maybe. But I know of a pack and a troop in our town that each sell $30,000+ in popcorn and similar in wreaths. Big scouting units. If I remember right, they have ISAs. Though not a scout unit, a local football fundraiser was turned in (I think to the IRS) by local businesses because they were competing with a core facet of several of those businesses and not paying sales tax, no licenses and not having any structural overhead. The football team's actions were costing the business tens of thousands a year in sales and were not competing on equal footing.

Eagle92 ... you are exactly right. A UC takes a very special combination of tact, courtesy and charisma. You hit it on the head. I just don't think there are enough extra scouters with those skills to go around. And if they do exist, they are grabbed to staff council, district or unit positions. I would greatly appreciate a grandfatherly figure offering sage advice. I just don't think scouting can staff such ranks given the level of needs everywhere else. The UC model needs major fixes. If for no other reason, I've been involved in five units over 14 years now. (two packs, three troops, some as parent, some as leader). No unit I've been in has ever been visited by a unit commissioner. Heck, we don't even know who was assigned to us. It's a broken model that everyone knows is broken except those district commissioners trying to recruit unit commissioners. I should mention ... I also want the UC program redesigned because most of the people I've learned are unit commissioners I'd want no where near my packs or troop.

Unit commissioners. You've hit on another broken BSA model. Every district I've talked with has problems with their UC ranks. A functional district UC staff is like a yeti. Scouters say it exists but no one has ever seen it themselves.

Eagle92 is in a no win situation. He's right. As a leader from the pack, he is a representative of the CO and has responsibility to represent them well. He also has responsibility to support their efforts. But he's also a parent and as such can put his kid into any unit he wants. I'd assert he can't promote another CO's unit as he's already registered and promised to support his CO. But, that's me. COs support the units. So, unit leaders should support the CO. Anything less is two faced. The problem is Eagle92 can't as Scouter99 (not picking on you) "send them" anywhere. There is no such authority. Den leaders can push a troop and most parents just don't know any different. So it works somewhat and sometimes. It breaks though when you have situations like Eagle92 where the pack now has fed two troops and has ties to each. But BSA promotes troop shopping and it results in the breaking up of dens and friendships through having each scout "choose" his troop. Of course, scouts can change at any time. But this whole troop shopping concepts does more damage than good. Anyway, I've said it before and I'm sure I'll say it again in another post. BSA has a broken model with troop shopping. I hope they fix it soon.

Rent-a-scout ... Interesting idea. I like it. I'd want to keep the troop out of handling the money, but otherwise a very good idea. My only fear is the scout who does plenty of work, but keeps the cash for other things. Still like the idea though.

"somewhere in 8 figures of salary, someone can think to call a tax lawyer ..." ... I think BSA did that and thus the no scout account statements.

... do my duty to God and my country

Why ... that's easy. Because that's how BSA has set it up. When? ... that's presuming it should Should? ... that's the really interesting question. IMHO, BSA is a great program but has a lot of dated, broken parts. It's almost like BSA should say we are taking two paths. Those who want to continue as is, can continue with the 2013 rules, policies, procedures and structure. But then at the same time redesign the major parts. Adopt the one unit concept. Co-ed. Advancement that overlaps less with school classroom materials. BSA gets stuck in the past way too much. The BSA program was outstanding in 1960 and fit the values and structure of society. But as the 1960 car of the year the Chevrolet Corvair is very dated compared to today's expectations, I really fear BSA scouting is very dated too.