fred johnson

IMHO, home sickness is much more common now. Especially as kids spend so much more time "IN THE HOUSE" and "WITH THE PARENTS". When we were kids, parents kicked us outside and told us not to come back until the next meal. Now, kids are watched so much that they can't handle independence. We see it every year with a few scouts. It is very hard for them. The only good solution we've seen is to keep them busy morning to night. Work on MB requirements and advancement requirements. Make them learn lashing inside and out. Then, build some lashing construct for camp. Keep them hydrated, but get them worn out so they fall asleep. Another issue we've found is tents. Young scouts are not used to old style tents that can have spiders and dark. They like the nylon tents that have zippered doors and keep the bugs out.

My apologies. I did not mean to imply you were. I just wanted to communicate that it is a sensitive area because we've had so many parents that do try to step in.

dcsimmons ... Agreed that is a distinction that needs to be made. Local choice works until scouters start using scouting for none scouting purposes. Marching in a parade in support of a controversial topic is using BSA for politics and not worthy of a scouter.

Atheists ???? BSA national? ... sure. Unit chartered by my "church"? ... if they don't make a point of it ... fine. Unit chartered by my "church"? ... if they make a public issue of it ... they wouldn't have a prayer. ----------------------------------------- It's really the same as sexual orientation .... as it exists now. BSA national? ... Sure. Unit chartered by my "church"? ... if they don't make a point of it ... fine. Unit chartered by my "church"? ... if they make a public issue of it ... you would be out and not just of the closet. ----------------------------------------- Our church will support and help anyone. But if you start telling everyone where our faith is wrong, it's best if you go elsewhere.

As for the rest ... already too late. This might be a controversial view, but ... girls ... transgender ... etc. The threshold has been past with alternative orientations. Already we need to consider more dating issues and more privacy issues. Perhaps it is best if scouting units all changed to using one "person" tents.

"​Local option" is about the charter organization "unit" membership. Marching in a city July 4th parade, fine. Marching in a "Pride parade" is more about taking a position and using scouting for a political agenda. At that points, leaders are using scouting for politics and they have no business doing that.

Just wanted to add one more thing. Your scoutmaster's actions are pretty standard. Many of us are very sensitive to parents sheltering their kid or being the driving force. On camp outs, we expect scouts to work with each other, cook with each other share tents etc etc. And ... we'd see big red flags if the parent stepped in to setup the tent or cook the food or carry the scout's stuff or .... etc etc etc. Same with advancement. I know I've had mothers upset with me when I've emphasized it's the scout's experience and advancement is his responsibility. Those conversations usually happen after a parent hands in a blue card or stands behind their scout pushing their scout to ask questions. Or what I've seen lately, the parent keeps a hawk's eye out for merit badge fairs or other MB offerings. Then, they get their scout registered. It would be okay if they shared with the troop and the scout registered himself through that notification along with other scouts. But when the parent signs him up for the MB event and stands near by when he asks for a blue card ... or even asks for a blue card for their son .... and then drives their son to the event ... and prods him to do the homework ... and etc etc etc. It's okay when it's the exception. Patterns are concerning.

chistineka ... Requirements can not be added or dropped, but expectations are adjusted for the ability of every scout. This is one reason some leader prefer that scouts are older when working on some merit badges, life saving for example. But BSA says any scout can work on any merit badge. There is no age or capability minimum. IMHO ... and I think BSA says this too ... it is important to consider effort and making it a meaningful experience. For example ... if you teach Personal Fitness to two scouts. One is eleven and in no sports. The other is 17 and captain of the Football team. For the 90 day exercise program, I would expect significantly more from the older, football player. It is not at all about demanding a pound of flesh. It's about the MB experience being meaningful. If they were to be the same, then BSA would have written something like ... for 90 days do 100 sit ups each day, 10 push ups, 5 pull ups and 200 jumping jacks. Absent numbers (i.e. 20 nights of camping), I interpret it as adjust to the capability of the scout. koolaidman was right with the chores. Adjust the chores for the ability and situation of the scout.

Sentinel947 is right. I'd add be careful and pick your battles. This is a big gray area. Scoutmaster is probably trying his best. He might be concerned about a pattern beginning where you are counseling your son. It's okay now and then, but I can easily see a SM getting rightfully concerned that you and your son would do ten badges that way. Bugling is not eagle required and it's a really hard MB because of learning the calls. I'd hope the SM would not have an issue with you finishing this MB with your son.

... Variety ... A major reason for the merit badge program is to interact with a lot of different people. Get out. Meet people. Find out what they like. Learn how to work with many different people. ... Effort .... IMHO, it is much easier to earn two MB from one counselor than to earn two MB from two different MBCs. A lot of the effort is getting to know each other and forming norms between the scout and the MBC. So if a scout earns a MB from a MBC and then learns he could council another, that is much easier than earning two MBC from two different MBCs. I'm not for one MB per MBC, but encouraging less is a good thing. ... Experts .... I could justify teaching a large portion of the 130+ MBs. The issue is that is it your love or could we find someone with more direct immediate experience. Many of us have diverse rich backgrounds. It is just that we should avoid "justifying" being a MBC and settling. Let's find a lawyer to teach the law, not just someone who took a law class. Let's find a doctor or nurse to teach personal fitness. Let's find a current archery instructor to teach archery. ... to some degree limiting it is also to avoid the parent or the leader who is out to support their guy and to game the system. I think we can justify it other ways and can avoid this discussion. But it is an issue too.

We've moved to these. Great tents. Expensive, but we've found sales over the years for 40% or more off. Great for canoe trips. Less so for backpacking. http://store.eurekatent.com/timberli...tfitter-4-tent The "outfitter" verion solves issues we had with the current lower end Timerline tents. Lower end have zippers break after a year or two and the rain flies were too short to prevent the corners from being drenched. I don't believe people that say you can set the lower end ones up right to keep them dry. ......................... Backpacking .. probably a bit too heaving depending on distance

Ya know, I just wanted to share. I am sad you just can't take my thoughts at face value without jumping all over it. ------------------------------------------ GeorgiaMom ... Treatment option ... You are being unfair. Youth with special needs have multiple treatment paths that are pursued concurrently. Yes, your son has extremely trained doctors and physical therapists and occupational therapists and probably others and special help in schools, etc, etc. But medical professionals do often suggest scouting as part of options to help their patients. It addresses social, physical and skills needs. It is a very very very good outlet. You might not like me using the term "treatment option" but when it is suggested by doctors I consider it exactly that. GeorgiaMom & jblake47 ... I know life is very hard with kids with special needs. Just don't infer I'm not sensitive to this. We each have our own issues and none of us get through life without difficulty. Plus our troop in no way could function if us adult leaders who are at camp month in and month out did not deal with these issues. Many of us have taken special training both at University of Scouting and through community education. We are very sensitive to it and very supportive. As a parent, I've worked with my children to also be understanding, supportive and teach them to be inclusive of everyone in the troop. ------------------------------------------ My point is just that kids are just kids and everyone in scouts is a volunteer, youth and adults. You may have had to use your legal rights to get schools to respond. But I can't make families bring their kids to scouts. Heck, my kids don't always want to attend either. Scouting depends so so much on the social abilities of the scouts and socializing disorders does affect the program. I'm just wonder how socializing disorders affects current membership issues and the perception of scouting. Imagine an average eleven year old trying to make friends. But the kid he meets stares blankly at him or walks away or won't listen or does something that is socially very awkward. I can't be there every moment to smooth the situation. Heck, in a properly functioning troop, I'm not hovering and I am 300 feet away most of the day. ------------------------------------------ There is a local troop that does not seem to have these issues. They are known as a backpacking troop and they go twelve months a year backpacking. High skills. High standards because they need those standards to stay safe. No car camping. No troop trailer filled with heavy equipment and shelters and big big tents. No easy outs if you are not prepared. IMHO, their program scares away or weeds out kids with special needs. Maybe they have one or two. But there is no way they could function as a troop and do what they do with over 50% with such needs. -------------------------------------------- Again, I apologize if this offends you. I just think about it at times. Just don't think I'm not sympathetic and supportive. ................................................... If you want to discuss this further, branch into another thread. This thread was for MattR's questions.

Sounds like the wrong answer on insurance. Find someone else who knows more. You do NOT have to meet under your CO's roof to be insured.

MattR ... nice comments ... Your troop sounds sort of like ours, dead on. Aspergers, ADHD, PTSD, kids whose mother is in jail, medications, etc etc. At a court of honor, my wife said the troop was filled with more than our share of special needs. Please please please forgive me for ever thinking this ... but I wonder if that is a potential problem that scouting has these days. Medical practitioners and others have recognized that scouting can be good for kids facing social challenges and other challenges. So scouting becomes a treatment option. It is strange because those same kids seem to get weeded out of baseball, football and other sports programs ... or so I think ... I don't have real evidence. I just see a high sports drop out rate 3rd grade and up and it's during those years that social issues become more visible. I'm glad to help. I'm glad that my kids socialize and get to know that kids with special needs are okay too and can have normal friendships. It's just that when your own kids don't have aspergers, ADHD, PTSD or other similar conditions and well over half the troop does, you begin to wonder if you should find a place with a lower ratio of special needs that would better serve your own son. Anyway ... it's something I think about. My apologies even for even thinking about it.

packsaddle ...

Sentinel947 ... Tough situation - I agree. It is strange, but I do have more sympathy for rank advancement than for membership. I fully believe scouts "earn" advancement. So if the scout can make amends for his action, I'm okay with it. Advancement is not the goal of scouting, but it is something scouts value. So I have sympathy there ... after he makes amends. Plus pot is just not that big a deal anymore. Many kids have tried it. It's everywhere at high schools and somewhat in middle schools. So I sort of view this as a "whoops" depending on the kid and the situation. Him and his family and the courts will work it out. I'll let him continue his advancement journey if he wants ... after closes out the issue. As for membership, I'm very utilitarian. Troops have to recruit or they die. And, families want their troops to be a place of safety and innocence for their sons. A kid dealing with an in-the-troop drug incident is a big big issue for membership. That's why my priorities are inverted and it might seem strange for people to believe that. Plus, who knows. The scout will be going through tough issues. Perhaps by working together on those last few advancement steps during this critical time we can talk about character issues and choices and maybe scouting can be a safe haven for him for a few months longer.

JoeBob ... I agree. Sort of like the scout parents that had a five hour drive to camp with their Tiger Cubs. They stopped for dinner at a Hooters restaurant. They figured the kids wouldn't know the difference at that age. Scouting is supposed to have an innocense and non-partisianship. I see this the same as a New Orleans Mardi Gras parade or a parade with women on trampolines. Just add a big controversy in addition to the stepping on societal limits.

Twocubdad ... I don't see it that way and I'm sorry you do. ... Ya don't like the merit badge program, then your troop should not use it. You're doing that. Great! You want it better, work for change. You want to discuss improving it, discussing changes. But it's un-scout-like to complain and worse to look down at others. ------------------------------- Our council summer camp staff makes $100 to $200 week (depending on job, skill and age) and are up there for 9 to 12 weeks. They have assignments from morning to night often including kitchen, camp fire, specific unit help, site clean up, etc. You are not going to get skilled MBC staff without easily doubling the price of summer camp. We are at $250 per scout for a week of summer camp. I could see improvements if we charged every scout $500 for the week. IDEA - Perhaps when signing up for summer camp, every troop should donate and pre-register two adult leaders for teaching specific MBs. Then, troops that don't provide MBs can't take MBs. IDEA - Another option, perhaps summer camps should provide free food and housing to qualified and screened MBCs who come up and volunteer to teach. I know that would be very attractive to myself when I retire. My sons have had some great MBCs and some poor ones. They have had some summer camps, district camporees, MB events and they have also called individuals for badges. As long as it's a variety, they are learning and growing. If they were all bad or all just like school, It would be an issue. I also like that they are learning from others near their own age. I think that's great when it works.

dfscott ... Of all the camping requirements, that sounds like a great requirement to complete with your scoutmaster as he's the guy you camp with every month.

Of course the camp staff counselors don't want the adults around. It's like being SPL in a troop with a uptight scoutmaster waiting to pounce on you at the slightest mistake. Scouts get many things out of summer camp merit badges. Some is the program itself. ... Outstanding. Horsemanship. Chess. First Aid (with the right counselor). Small boat sailing. ... Good detailed experiences. Shotgun. Rifle. Archery. Environmental Science. First Aid. Wood carving. Fishing ... Inconsistent over the years and often shallow ... ... ... Camping (we do more in the troop even outside the MB, just as skills teaching). ... ... ... Wilderness survival. (we've had kids build their own shelters on weekend camps regularly just for fun). ... ... ... Personal fitness (need MBC around for the three months) ... ... ... Astronomy (need MBC who loves the topic and nights when it doesn't rain or doesn't have a full moon) ================================= But even with the less than stellar quality camp merit badges, I'm okay with it. Scouts work with staff closer to their own age in a camp setting. It can be inspirational and refreshing. Many end up wanting to be staffers because of it. Some even develop interest in the topic because someone close to their age has real interest in the topic. ================================= BUT ... Ultimately, if you don't like the summer camp program, go somewhere else or create your own summer camp program. It's okay to provide feedback, but if you are going to piss and moan then it's better to stop going to the camp. Scouts pick up on negative attitudes quick and kills morale and devalues their achievements. So if you don't like the program, then don't bring your scouts to that camp. We've done our own summer camp week several times with great results. scout leaders teach what they are truely experts in and the scouts learn alot and have a less stressful week. We had an EMT teach first aid. A long-term BWCA person teach canoeing. An avid fisherman teach fishing. Best week at camp those scouts ever had.

Of course the counselors don't want the adults around. It would suck trying to work with scouts with a bunch of judgmental know-it-all curmudgeons hanging around. It's like being SPL in a troop with a uptight scoutmaster waiting to pounce on you at the slightest mistake. Scouts get many things out of summer camp merit badges. Some is the program itself. ... Outstanding. Horsemanship. Chess. First Aid (with the right counselor). Small boat sailing. ... Good detailed experiences. Shotgun. Rifle. Archery. Environmental Science. First Aid. Wood carving. Fishing ... Inconsistent over the years and often shallow .... ... ... Camping (we do more in the troop even outside the MB, just as skills teaching). .... ... ... Wilderness survival. (we've had kids build their own shelters on weekend camps regularly just for fun). .... ... ... Personal fitness (introductory and it's a good badge to have the same MBC available for three months). .... ... ... Astronomy (potentially great topic but really needs a counselor who loves astronomy .... .... .... ... ... plus too many times at summer camp the observations end quick because of rain or a really bright moon). ================================= But even with the less than stellar quality camp merit badges, I'm okay with it. Scouts work with staff closer to their own age in a camp setting. It can inspirational and refreshing even with the less than stellar quality. Many scouts end up wanting to become staffers because of it. Some even get inspired because they see someone closer to their age with a real interest in the topic. ================================= Ultimately, if you don't like the summer camp program, go somewhere else or create your own summer camp program. It's okay to provide feedback, but if you are going to piss and moan then stop going to the camp. Scouts pick up on negative attitudes quick and kills morale and devalues their achievements. So if you don't like the program, then don't bring your scouts to that camp. We've done our own summer camp week several times with great results. scout leaders teach what they are truely experts in and the scouts learn alot and have a less stressful week. We had an EMT teach first aid. A long-term BWCA person teach canoeing. An avid fisherman teach fishing. Best week at camp those scouts ever had. ================================== This year, my only disappointment was the OA callout. Fire died quickly (three minutes). All leaves, no wood fuel. Forgetting their parts. No inspiration. .