fred johnson

RAH RAH RAH !!!! So so so true. Scouting is a simple program that continually gets over complicated.

The best solution I've seen is the camp coordinator who constantly focused on making the job easy for her. She'd ask the SPL to regularily announce that we need the forms and the money. But she had a system where she checked things off and kept complete and incomplete sets. No nagging. No emailing the people who have not handed in XXXX. She made sure people knew it was their job and not hers to chase down paperwork. The real deadline as 8am leaving for camp. She'd have her truck tailgate down to use as a desk. If the scout didn't have everything, then the scout could not go. Parents were asked to not leave before making sure their scouts were checked off. We had some parents that drove their scouts up late after finding a way to get a physical done. We had parents write a check. IMHO, she had it right. Don't sweat the late parents. Be there for the parents that are organized. Beyond that, make it easy for yourself. *** AS A PARENT ***, I hate arbitrary deadlines they are not real deadlines. I probably know the real deadlines better than the other leaders. IMHO, just communicate the real deadlines. Deadlines that are true stopping point. For my troop, it's leaving for camp. And the hard rule is the health form and/or permission slip. We'll even be flexible on money if we trust you.

Read the original post. Your "for example" question is very different than the original post. The original post is about membership and whether to exclude those of different or non belief. Your "for example" question is about evangelizing and whether an opportunity is lost. Both are well meant posts, but very different questions.

Just like anywhere ... there are units that do their own thing. Generally Roman catholic units do not require being catholic. The only issue.would be if the scout or.family criticized the church. Even then it is probably a polite conversation; not a you must leave result.

Okay. I really like the Voyaguer Jac Coat. If it matches what I'd want, I'd pay that price. I'm tired of using cheaper products that don't fully meet the need.

I can't speak to all the changes and when what happened when. But I have an old BSA red and a new BSA green. The red one was itchy, but extremely warm and blocked the wind. I depended on that jacket for years. Cold? Button another button. It was great ! The green is not itchy, but it is cold and I can feel the wind through it. I view the BSA green one I have as more decorative than functional. Essentially, I'm now disappointed in BSA products. I've started looking for a same-color jacket from a non-BSA vendor.

I've been in troops that do both. My experience is you prefer what you first learned. Except long haul adventures, I prefer drivers pay their own. Then if you want to drive or not is your choice. Which car you drive is your choice. I've had adults that ride with me hand me some dollars to cover some cost. Others don't. I've seen the reverse where people try to coordinate drivers and then people who don't camp as much don't know the car planning game and throw a monkey wrench into the list of cars and how it's all planned and paid. In our troop, if it's less than 100 miles each way it's not budgeted or reimbursed ... except the guy pulling the trailer who gets a nominal recognition through reimbursement. Not actual cost.

I just read the original post in detail. There is the ideal of who does what and that is good for discussion and planning. But in the end, everyone needs to be able to agree, get along and work together. IMHO this is the key job of the CC in association with the CM. The CC (and CM) need to make sure everyone is getting along and working in the same direction. There times when adults have "quirks" and/or "subvert" the group working together. IMHO, this is when the CC and CM need to understand each other. If it is the CM or CC, then it's a difficult to fix issue. I don't know your situation, but I'd ask. Who's the CC? What's your role? Sometime sit is most important to just smile and do your job the best you can and not think ill thoughts of anyone.

What does the pack do? Know the ideal as taught by BSA. It's very good guidance. Reality is that the mix of people need to make the program work and make the program great for the scouts. In that view, the actual assignments and responsibilities can bounce around. Use the ideal as something to move toward and to recognize where you need to recruit more leaders and/or improve the job coverage.

Fully agree. But I think you interpreted what I said differently. I wrote "On the other side, the SM and CC need to work together, quickly and timely. I fully believe these situations need to be met with a simple short conversation about the boundaries of the program and that if the scout doesn't want to enjoy the program within those boundaries, they should look to spend their time elsewhere. SM talks to the scouts. CC talks to the parents. Both conversations need to happen. " I said you need to have the talk early and timely. And, it needs to be blunt. "These are the boundaries of scouting. Either participate within those boundaries or find another place to spend your time." My experience is also that the scouts either shape up or leave on their own. It's the blunt conversation that is critical.

Those arguments don't go far with me. IMHO, kids don't misbehave because they don't know it's wrong.

I've dealt with a few of these situations at times. IMHO, some boys are at different points in their lives. Sometimes dealing with issues beyond what scouts can handle. Sometimes boys want to hijack the program and activities for their own intentions and objectives. (fun, building a click of friends, etc). Sometimes that means being mean or building a power base by putting others down. I'm not sure I'm being entirely suscinct and clear. As a parent, there is not much you can do other than pass your concerns onto the scoutmaster and to be there AT A DISTANCE to watch and be there for your son. But stepping in to change the behavior of other scouts isn't really your place. Sometimes a few light handed interactions might be useful, but it really needs to be fully coordinated through the scoutmaster. On the other side, the SM and CC need to work together, quickly and timely. I fully believe these situations need to be met with a simple short conversation about the boundaries of the program and that if the scout doesn't want to enjoy the program within those boudnaries, they should look to spend their time elsewhere. SM talks to the scouts. CC talks to the parents. Both conversations need to happen. IMHO, those looking to swear, bully or display other anti-social behaviors need to change or move on. IMHO, the statement "If any kid needs scouting, he does." is a big big big red flag. Scout leaders are not trained as therapists and need to trust the scouts to be own their own working with each other.

Your frustration is understandable. But it's hard for us to answer as we don't know your troop or the situation. I'd suggest talking to the scoutmaster ... AND ... talk to other regular parents. The goal should be to understand how their scouts advanced and started camping. Perhaps it's an age hole issue. Perhaps it's a shift in troop dynamics. Or perhaps it is just not understood how your troop does it. BUT ... if you can't grow to understand the program, think about switching. You are not locked into the troop. Hopefully, you will grow to learn how the troop works or help it change. But if not, ....

Focusing on what Eagle means is mis-placed and better left to Cliff Claven and Norm Peterson. Your definitions of Eagle are fine. Generally, I don't have problems with much of any of it. My concern is focusing on the definition of Eagle and what that definition means. IMHO, the focus should be on providing a good program that has adventure and that stretch the scouts. Trying to judge if a scout is Eagle as they approach the end is just wrong.

Yeah so so true. Scouting is supposed to be a simple program. If adult leaders would just focus more on camping and supporting the scouts instead of focusing on setting up expectations and their own quality control program, it would be a much better program.

I've seen it too where each camp out has a new effective SPL. I don't mind the service patrol / program patrol approach. It can work. But the PLC is always the PLC and the SPL is always the SPL. IMHO, rotating camp leadership or picking the next scout leader just messes things up the same way rotating the scoutmaster each month would mess up the scoutmaster position. IMHO, do simple things that promote patrol method and let the SPL oversee the PLs and the other positions. What few simple things ? Never combine patrols. ... or as never as possible I cringe agreeing with Stosh and Beavah but it's one of the key points. "Once a ####, always a ####." It's the only way to promote patrol loyalty and spirit. Forming patrols on the fly for a camp-out subverts the patrol method big time. If one scout is on a camp out, he gets to bring his own food. If he doesn't like that or if it happens too often, he can choose to switch patrols because his patrol mates are not supporting him and he can choose to be a different patrol. It's a learning lesson for everyone. It also promotes having that scout encourage his patrol mates to go on the camp out. Always have the SPL lead the big group. Switching or taking over just subverts the SPL and will frustrate the SPL. The SPL needs to be in-charge continually to become used to standing up in front of everyone.

I would applaud a scoutmaster who steps in to help.

Agreed. Our troop would help too. In fact, our troop has helped out a scout in this similar situation. Troop and family had a falling out. Our scoutmaster talked with their old scoutmaster. Old scoutmaster was not helpful. Simple fact is eagle project is a requirement, but it's one of many. If the scout did the project, it should be signed off and not used as a blocker.

Beavah has good advice that should be used throughout the scout's career. But at critical times and when there is a clear imbalance of power ... at those times it is appropriate for a parent to step in. Opinions will differ. You may run into others that think you are inserting yourself too much. IMHO, this is clearly one of the times to step in and turn an unfair situation into a fair fight.

Sadly true. It never surprises me the number of adults turn something that should be celebrated and cheered and work to turn it into a failure and work to create a bad experience for the scout. IMHO, just want is the scout supposed to learn from these actions at the last minute. If there are higher expectations, they are to be raised during every one of the previous ranks (scout, tenderfoot, 2nd class, first class, star and life). You do NOT use Eagle as a barrier to a higher standard. You have that standard throughout the scout's career or you don't. Councils can get lost in paperwork. Continue that path. Make sure you are talking with the council advancement director. ... BUT ... Contact your district. Contact the district advancement chair. Get his help. You want as many people on your side. You want to keep this moving forward. Do not let this slip or wait as time is your enemy.

Been there. Had a great time. - Time of the year significantly ... significantly ... changes the experience. We went in August. Day time temps were 90+. Temp on the beach sand was 100+ easily. Temp at 2am was 85+. The harder part was the humidity. Nothing ever dried that week. It just went from really wet when it rained in the afternoon to fairly damp. Things will get icky. - Read the guide. The best advice is in the guide equipment list. - If I had to re-experience that week ... great trip ... absolutely great ... I would not bring any tea shirts. They don't breath and you can't unbutton them to get air flow on the skin. Get some nice shirts with air vents in the back that breath and that you can unbutton somewhat. - Gold bond. Gold bond. Gold bond. ... One scout used enough that every time he walked there was a small puff of white smoke like he had elected a pope. - Leave some time before or after to go see a baseball game in Miami or Fort Lauderdale or to see Key West or see that fort tortuga or what ever it's named. You're already down there. Do a day of touring. - Canoeing was actually really easy. It's not difficult canoeing at all. - Remember some clean clothes you can leave at the base to change back into when you get back. You may or may not be able to do laundry. Even after laundry, your shirts my still feel creepy crawly after the week.

Recruiting - does your unit recruit for Lions in the fall only? If not, how do you do spring recruiting for Lions when the kids are pre-kindergarten and possibly not in the schools that feed the Packs yet? --- We only do fall recruitment. Too much idle time in the summer where the pack can look bad to new members. We are still active in the summer, but we have only half of normal participation at best. --- We've had some parents visit but then say their younger K boy is just not mature enough to get anything out of it. I've heard that the Lion Den should start with an experienced Scouter as the Den Leader. Is that how your unit does it? If so, at what point do they hand the den over to one of the parents, Middle of the year, or as they become a Tiger den? --- We've done both and are in year 3 or 4. With experienced scouters, we've had inconsistency from available time from the experienced scouter. One only was available once. The other a bit more. --- The other aspect is if you don't recruit a volunteer immediately, then transitioning later and getting someone to step up is much harder. How often are den meetings? Are they always held on the same day/time? What day/time are the den meetings? I've heard concerns about meeting schedules and bed times for the younger kids, when are your Pack meetings and has this been an issue? --- Inconsistent. Some meet regularly. Some just now and then. --- Bed times are consistently an issue. Parents have to drive home and have diner. As such, our pack meetings start between 6:30pm and 7:00pm. That's as early as possible. Finishes around 8pm to 8:30pm. It's too late for many. Getting them riled up that late is not good either. Definitely too late for kindergarten scouts. Do the adventures include outings and field trips? If so, do you have them during your normally scheduled meeting times, or are they in addition to the normal den meetings? --- Make it almost all go-see its. --- I'd almost ditch all the normal meeting stuff unless you can make it great and meaningful to a 5 year old boy. You mention that the Lions do everything the Pack does, do the families regularly attend all Pack meetings? I've heard some suggestions that Lions only attend key Pack events (Blue and Gold, Pinewood Derby, etc.). --- Yep. It's hard to split administration between four grades and one or two other grades. As such, you pretty much end up running one program for K to 5th. It don't work so well. --- I'm concerned with pinewood derbies etc. Now a scout has six years of pinewood derbies. Got multiple kids. He can race as a younger sibling. IMHO, it removes most of the magic as a first time kid building his car. I've heard that some Cub Scouting activities aren't available to Lions (such as Cub Scout resident camp in the summer before they start Kindergarten), does your Council or District have any events geared specifically to the Lions? --- Yep. There is a lot of talk about retention and burn-out... any idea how many kids who start as Lions stay in Cub Scouting through Webelos, and or beyond into Boy Scouting? --- This is the big issue. --- Four years in and it's ho-hum okay or repetitive. Why not go try something else? --- Got multiple kids? Let's see ya volunteer as a Lion den leader after 10+ years of cubs already. --- Lions turns scouting into a generic community ed program instead of the independence building, take responsibility, adventure program scouting can be. I'm also curious about parent involvement. With two years (Lion and Tiger) of parents attending meetings with their boys, does that result in higher parent involvement at the Wolf-Bear-Webelos levels? Thanks in advance, I'm not sure what your role is or how many of these questions you can answer, but I'm trying to put together some information on how this has been working for units who have experienced it, and any information is helpful. --- My main advice. Recruit your volunteers early. Keep it simple. Don't worry about any legalistic advancement as the scout is way too young to expect that sort of thing. --- My advice to parents. Start your cub in 2nd or 3rd grade.

RECOMMENDATION - Take a step back and think about how you and your son feel about the troop and his experiences. Talk with your son saying that you were disappointed in how he was treated and it's not how the program is supposed to work. ... BUT ... if your overall experience is positive, go camping and get that extra camp. Get it confirmed that it would fulfill the active participation. ... THEN ... just move on toward the next rank. Sometimes fixing a wrong only causes more damage. Make a choice on which way to go. Know it's wrong and use it as a learning experience with your son. But, find the best path for your son. Perhaps it might be best to move past the wrong and just go camping one more time.. You never know if the next troop will be a good fit or do it better. You never know if other issues will happen. Perhaps, he won't enjoy the next troop as much. Just be clear so that your son knows how he should treat scouts when he grows up. IMHO, I bet the troop committee is trying to be egalitarian and let everyone in on the advancement purpose to build consensus. IMHO, it's not needed and it's explicitly wrong per how the program is to run. PS - And if you're still upset, you don't need to award the mentor pin to anyone at his Eagle COH. Good luck.

Kudos to you for quoting GTA. ... Quick clarification ... 2. The only probationary status is with the council or BSA. A troop needs to dismiss the scout for him to not be in good standing. As long as the scout is not dismissed, he passes test #2. It's sort of circular with requirement #1. Must be registered. Just lets the council put a probationary status on the scout. 3. Also has an alternative path if the scout does not meet their expectations and still be deemed active. Again kudos for bringing in GTA to the discussion.

I've always hated both sides of that behavior. Both sides being encouraging because you'll get credit and ominous messages about repercussions if they don't participate.