Eagledad

Venturing could be a good resource for teaching troops how to backpack. We had one crew that even planned and ran a backpack themed Camporee. And, maybe OA could find some service in this area as well. They are after all BSA's outdoor experts. We're going get those Backpacking MB numbers up one way or another. Not sure I can help on Business Management. Aren't they called "The Man"? Barry

Well I guess that is a problem of itself. Every state has plenty of backpacking, so Philmont should not be the got-to for Scout Backpacking.

It would seem you could earn the big Reptiles MB along those trails...one way or another. Barry

I think it will only get worse with the addition of girls because very few moms have any camping experience. The councils could help out by providing some high adventure with giving adults some experience, but that is likely and expense they can't afford. Barry

Yes, that is the issue with Venturing, it is an adult driven program. Adults start the program with enthusiasm, but when that dies out, so does the program. 3 out of 5 Venturing Crews die within 5 years in our district. Explorers was, and is, no different, the only reason they appear more resilient is they had sponsors to continue the enthusiasm through generations of adult leaders. I'm guessing that sponsorship is why Venturing is fading. Barry

I'm wondering how much of that is attributed more to fewer experienced adults, or the culture of kids wanting less outdoors. Barry

I did this in our district and it works pretty well. You have to sell the troop, but that's not very hard because it's easy recruiting. We did it for weak den leaders in our district. Barry

This reply doesn't really apply to the OP, but this is one of the few times where I disagree with malraux. At my first Blue and Gold as a CM, I went over to talk to the two Webelos dens who were crossing over that night. Most all the scouts were going to one troop. I asked the scouts why they chose that troop, and the general answer was that troop had the best game of all the troop meetings they visited. A year later I checked and 90% of those scouts had dropped out. I believe adults should have at least 50% participation in finding a troop. There should be a family discussion along with the Den Leader, but sons and parents have two different objectives for joining a troop. Both should be considered. While malraux gives a good example of why the parent needs to listen to the son, my experience is his example is generally the opposite. The Webelos doesn't see the whole program because he is focused on the few minutes of the visit. Make the choice a family decision, otherwise the risk are huge. Barry

Freebies are harder on troops than packs because the unknowing can effect the patrol dynamics. The program is wrapped around the outdoor program, so eventually commitment (or lack there of) stresses the boy run part of the patrol method. It's hard enough with registered scouts, now the patrols have to contend with scouts who say "maybe". Advancement and Den cost tend to push the families on the Pack side, but that can take a little while until the program is in full motion. Worse case is the cubs not getting their badges with their buddies. Barry

Yes, but he knew enough to think he was on the ballot, so somebody was coaching or something. As far as we know, the SM might be considering some changes, but does he even know the family is upset. Barry

You are doing the right thing for the wrong reason. Kids don’t burn out if they are having fun. The reason those Webelos were excited to cross over is likely a good den leader. We had two Eagle dads join our pack who couldn’t wait to be leaders. They both planned to be SMs, and would have been great. I encouraged them to wait a couple years, but both had to be leaders then. One took over as CM and the other a DL. They were fantastic and the cubs loved them, but both burned out took a few years off after their sons crossed over. We lost two really good Eagles dads that way. The adults need to pace themselves if they want to lead in the troop. We tried to keep new parents out of the program completely as Tiger parents and ask them to just observe. Then get moms to lead the Bear/wolf years with dad taking over at Webelos. That plan rarely happened because some adults can’t wait to lead and are stuck the whole five years, while other groups don’t have any dads wanting take over. But two years max should be the goal for adults volunteer time. They can still help, if they want, but just assist. Barry

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The BSA is tapping into a whole new demographic the size of half the youth population and you didn’t expect to see a jump the first year? Ive said many times here that Nationals membership numbers are complicated and confusing, but there should be a bump. I’m good at analyzing these things, but I’m clueless on this one. My first thought is National really bungled the introduction. Barry

I scouters in general don’t know what experience Venturing can provide that troops don’t. It use to be Girls in our area. But apparently the shiny thing “Eagle” is hard to resist.

I don’t think this unusual, my dad said he saw such things happened both in scouts and sports in the 1940s. It’s a cross between boys-will-be-boys and right of passage hazing. It’s being rooted out today by a change in cultures. Of course that being said, I never experienced or witnessed such behavior in my lifetime. While it may have been going on for a long time in some places, I don’t think it was ever generally acceptable to the population. Barry

I would suggest asking to visit Webelos at one of their den meetings to observe. That is a good place to talk with the leader and market your program. If you lead the discussion right, you can learn a lot of what they want from a troop and what the other troop isn't providing. Barry

Very common with both packs and troops. I was called more than once by the district to help settle units squabbling over territories. Recruiting for most units is a challenge because the skills required aren't common of most adults. Units like the families to initiate the recruiting process because that requires very little effort. Some adults just have a hard time marketing and selling their program. Barry

You explained it pretty well. Duluth Packs are prefect for canoe trips with portaging. They are terrible for everything else. They could even carry the kitchen sink. What makes the Duluth special for the portaging is they have the durability to load and unload a lot of heavy gear easier in unstable shorelines with slippery slimy rocks and shifting sand. One pack can hold the equivalent of 4 backpacks. Durability is important because they are pulled out of the canoes in one motion and tossed several feet to land. Because they hold so much gear, they get heavy quick and don't have the adjustability of backpacks for comfort. Using big Duluths are desired so that the crew reduces the number of hikes carry get all their gear. Barry

Great questions. This is where I feel the Scoutmasters opinion is important. Of the hundreds of scouts I watched go thru our troop, two scouts stick out that had the skills and maturity Oldscout448 ask of first year scouts. Both where Chapter Chiefs and both were our youngest SPLs at age 14. Barry

What is a Junior Scout and who picks him? I don't see the OP getting much support from Scoutmasters for his concern. The reason is Scoutmasters continually receive a lot of heat from parents for how they run the troop. Of course Scoutmasters can abuse the privilege, but they are the designated person to draw the line for minimum quality of a scout. The SM is the gatekeeper for keeping the program fair and equal for each and all scouts. If the SM is taken out of that role, then who sets the standard? As mashmaster points out, it will be the squeaky wheel parent of the week. Once the parents start setting the quality standard, all standards go away because each parent is only in it for their son. The only way an unsatisfied parent can change the quality of program for their son is to either switch to another troop or change Scoutmasters. I've watched parents do both and no matter what those parents choose to do, they are never satisfied. Of course the SM will listen to the parents concern, and sometimes the concern is valid and an adjustment is made. But, more often, the SM has to ease the parents concern and sell the program once more. I'm not sure which is better, I was Scoutmastering before email was a standard form of communication and on the phone every night listening to concerned parents. It's one thing to type a few words in an emotional haste and hit "Send", it's another to confront the calm tone of the polite human who carries the weight of a program that takes dozens of sons into the woods to build character, and then bring them home safely. Barry

I guess, but in our area OA suddenly shows up at a meeting to do the election. Oh we may get a couple days warning, but it's not like there are months of preparation and counseling before the election. I'm not even sure how parents find out about it. If I'm counseling any scouts about qualification, it's usually the night of the election because it suddenly came up. And as I said, when it comes to first year scouts, I counseled more parent than scouts. When did not getting elected become a bad thing? Not getting elected should be normal because it's a program for elite scouts. Or was. In my opinion, OA is only for mature scouts. Scouts should have enough maturity and knowledge of OA to counsel their parents about the program and process, not the SM. That much maturity and knowledge requires some scouting experience. And maybe that should be the standard SM response to parents, "Go ask you son. If he doesn't have a satisfactory explanation, then he's not qualified yet." Barry

I'm sure litigation was the motivation, but we had a scout break his arm during an activity that we forgot to submit a tour permit. When I reported the incident and that we forgot the tour permit, the response was "No Biggy". I was told later that the professionals knew that any good lawyer could hold the BSA to their word of taking responsibility. I can see that you are skeptical of councils big brother approach to forcing units to follow a check list, I was too. But when I volunteered at the district and council level, I learned that more adults than you would think are very thoughtless of safety in their activities. At some point, it's not as much about litigation as it is the safety of other parents sons. It's great that your troop creates such a checklist for your activities, but I assure you, your troop is not the norm. Barry

You know MattR, there is a SM Minute there somewhere. I think you are right. Anger is a great positive motivator when done correctly. Over the years of parenting, coaching, scout leading and so on, I replaced showing anger as a motivator with showing disappointment. I don't think developing the technique was purposeful, but I was deeply conscious of the limits for disciplining other parents sons. I didn't want to correct their bad choices, I wanted them to correct themselves. I was searching for a style that accomplished the same positive motivation of anger, without showing anger. Changing that style wasn't an intentional or overnight, bad choices on my part and the humility that followed was part of the long process. But, I realized the power of disappointment as a motivator when a few scouts, who made some wrong choices, were standing near me waiting for my reaction. A scout later told me during a SM Conference that the more I talked in those situations, the less gilt they felt. I guess in my style, less is more. I don't discount the respect the scouts were giving me in wanting my approval. Looking back at it, I love this scouting stuff. We all have our style, but I see my style in my adult kids now. Good or bad, role modeling is very powerful. Barry

Yes, I agree. One thing l learned about adult leaders is that they need check-offs to measure their performance. That is why the "Advancement Method" is so abused; the Scouts' advancement checklist in "his" book is an easy way for the adults to measure how they are doing. I was a little surprised that National took away tour permits. Maybe the bureaucracy was more than the councils could handle, but it was a good preparation checklist for traveling with a troop full of scouts. The PLC filled out the Tour Permit in our troop. Barry

I could 20 years ago, I don't save that stuff. But it educated me to pinpoint the causes of the problems. Obviously you are free to follow your feelings. Barry