Eagledad

I agree. Scouting should be an adventure experience, not efficient rank advancement. Barry

There are two different discussions going on here. One point is that meals are challenging for a team because scouts are forced to accept responsibilities that effect the whole group. Meals also provide opportunities for serving the group or being served by the group. I remember one scout who never liked a single thing the patrols cooked. Is he giving or taking in the team effort? Is the team giving or taking in giving him choices? The Scout Law is quite clear, but personal pride or humility figure into the failure of the success of that situation. As I said, until the members of the team give up their personal pride, they will stand out from the team. The other part of the discussion, and I also think a good one, is how can the adults get the patrols to become successful independent teams, like in cooking. We start with a nudge by encouraging cooking competitions or activities the push scouts to be creative and use good sense in their decisions. I found that scouts want to do things right, they just need help in understanding what is right. Nutrition for example is a good tool for scouts to use in creating healthy meals. Fun activities encourage creativity to broaden the range of healthy meals. I'm am not a great cook, but what I can cook, I cook pretty well. And most of what I cook I learned in scouts. Boys by nature are lazy and don't like to put too much effort in new ideas. So they get in a rut repeating the same habits as the previous campouts. I think it's OK to encourage creative variety into the scouts program. don't just do a compass course, do one that involves a lake or river. Do a five mile hike that requires climbing riding a bike. Do a simulated car wreck to force the scouts to practice first aid. Our PLC planned all of these things. And once the scouts get momentum, watch out because the program will take off. Barry

Maybe there are two Jambalaya Capitols (North and South?), our chef (Mrs. Barry) always includes okra in her Jambalaya. Barry

I'm sure there are a lot of good suggestions here, but one I remember that helped a lot was our troop did a cooking them one month. Each meeting had a different theme, like dutch oven, stove cooking, fire cooking and other themes. That was 20 years ago, so I can't remember. But the patrols were asked to create some minus to hand out to all the patrols and cooked those menu items at the meeting to be judged by the Scoutmaster. Then the patrols had another competition at the campout. The way we got the patrols to cook healthier meals was approaching the the PLC to be more responsible with healthier cooking by following the recommend BSA and National nutrition guidelines that require proteins and vegetables. Adults are responsible for the scouts healthy eating from the Fitness Aim. Once the scouts starting understanding the adults responsibilities and guidelines for proper healthy eating, they pretty much take over. The adults can introduce new ideas in their own campsite. We once provided turkey to all the patrols on evening that we cooked using the charcoal posts reflective oven. https://www.instructables.com/id/Turkey-on-a-Tripod/ Patrols started cooking turkeys with the method until I retired. The picture is my Troop Guide son showing off his turkey cooking skills to the new scouts on their first campout. Barry

My experience is New Boy or Same Age patrols don't perform as well with Patrol method because they don't have role models to follow. They either learn it on their own, from adults, or don't learn it at all. One common problem I've observed with same age units is the patrols tend to become cliquish and the scouts don't like doing activities outside their patrols. Some troops work around the problem by moving whole patrols into troop leadership positions instead of individual scouts seeking each position independently. It's described as patrols taking their turn. That creates its own challenges, but it works for adults who desire same age patrol program. Barry

I don't think there is and easy answer. UC advising can be tricky. For example, the UC had to guide us on how to give BORs without retesting the scouts. He could have said not to do it. But instead he did this by leading a few or our BORs. Also, the vast majority of troops don't follow the recommended advancement guidelines and policies. The UCs are closest to units for following published policies. Should the unit leaders pride prevent them from at least listening to the UC advise? An Eagle can hang on how units react. A good UC will try and stay away from adult pride and instead suggest attending training, or even do the unit a favor by bringing a trainer to the unit for an hour of training. Some UCs are better at passing this information to the leaders than others. Where I think they start crossing the line is when they tell the unit how to run their program. The year before I joined the Cubs as a leader, a UC told our leaders to split the pack because it was too big. That created a huge mess, especially during recruiting. He also got in the middle of adding to meeting agendas before we finally asked him to step back. On the other hand, our Troop UC tried to stick to advising by clarify BSA policies and rules. He wasn't sure about our 100 yard campsite separation approach because it wasn't how he Scoutmastered his very successful program. But, he never told us to stop. He ended up getting some kind of award for his UC experience because our troop grew from 15 to 100 scouts in 6 years. He got that award because he stayed out of the way. If we weren't going off in a dangerous direction, he just stepped back. I have watched good UCs make bad programs good, and bad UCs kill good programs. Over the years, I have found two observations that determine the quality of UCs. First is the District Commissioner. Some of them just aren't very good. The other is the quality and experience of the UC. I've said this before in other adult leadership discussions, but success with Unit Commissioners depends a lot of good recruiting. More often than not, bad unit leaders make bad UCs. There is a big gray area for how and where a UC advises. Looking at different units from the District and council side, unit leaders should have some patience with UC guidance, as well as the UCs having patience. Developing a good relationship with the DE and DC (district commissioner) helps a great deal because they are the UC advisers. Many times the UC is just relaying information from his superiors. Barry

I'm a little curious Buggie, you give the impression that you are the respected authority over all the adults and have little patience for not following strict enforcement of policies and rules. Are you a retired SM or something similar? Would a refresher training class be an option to bring your fellow adults up to speed? Barry

"""Yes, the OA is a service organization. But there was a camaraderie in the work. Sometimes that "cheerful spirit, even the midst of irksome tasks and weighty responsibilities...." resulted in turning it to fun or even turning the task into a joke to make it more bearable. Sadly that is missing. When I was CA 10+ years ago. I suggested promoting the fun stuff as well as doing our own. We sent folks to fellowship and conclave. We had fun meetings and even did some special trips. Our work load didn't decrease, in fact we did a few extra community service projects. OA was getting back on track for a while in my neckof the woods. Eagle94-A1""" This isn't just OA, this is Patrol Method. I took this quote from the OA discussion, but Eagle94 is really hitting the idealism of the brothers in the patrol as well. The objective of the patrol is for the scouts Practice struggling, and come together with ideas so often that they can eventually read each others mind. They reach a place that being in the patrol isn't about scouting together, camping together, cooking together or even competing together, it's about being together. One poster commented that Arrowmen in his area didn't enjoy the program because it service wasn't fun. But that means they haven't come together as brothers. They were simply doing a task they were assigned. When the scouts start organizing activities to serve together, then the weighted task are easy, even fun. The 4 Steps of Team Development are Forming, Storming, Norming and Performing. The key step there is Storming because that is where the team members (Patrol Members) start to hold each other accountable for doing their part. It's called Storming because the members push back and forth until actions of humility bring balance. Humility is not a natural human action of young males because it exposes them to harm. Pride is their natural reaction because it's raises a barrier that protects them. The barrier also prevents the clay shaping bonding that forms a productive team. The members of a productive team develop a trust with the other members where they can let their guard down. Human instinct is to hold your weaknesses close to you. Once you build the trust with the other members of the team, a relationship builds where the members not only enjoy being with the team, but also liking themselves more as well. Team members use your best skills, and that feel pretty cool. So, how do we get the patrols to push to and through Storming part of the patrol method. Well, the more they struggle, they more they have to rely on the team the relieve the struggle. Competition is a really good method of applying stress into a team. But any struggle works. I found High Adventure Crews typically go through the Forming, Storming, Norming and Performing steps in just a few days because the trek is compact with struggles. Most High Adventures are both physically and mentally stressful through most of each day. There is very little relief until after the evening meal. Takes about 3 days to reach storming, then the rest of the trek to reach Performing. Crews are pretty bonded by the end of a trek. The natural leaders will stand out and the rest of the team does their part to support the goals and vision of the team. Most scouts of a crew never loose that bond even after they break up after the trek. I believe that preparing meals is the most stressful activity of a patrol on a normal monthly campout. Many troops like to make meals as easy as possible because there is so much stress. Pop Tarts for breakfast, sandwiches for lunch and canned spaghetti for dinner with the adults cooking Sunday breakfast as the scouts break camp. Instead, encourage the patrols cooks healthy hearty breakfasts, hot lunches and complex hot dinners. Not only should they cook Sunday breakfast, but prepare lunch as well. Why are troops in so much of a hurry Sunday? Building teams takes time, troops should be using as much time as they can get. I also encourage competition as much as possible. Inspections are a wonderful application of stress because they forces the scouts to keep a neat campsite. While two scouts are cooking, the rest of the team has the task of cleaning up the campsite. A tent mate may have to role up his partners sleeping bag because he is busy with KP. Time is the Scoutmasters best tool for creating stress. When a patrol has less than an hour to get up, cook, clean up and get camp ready for inspection, they will generally come to troop assembly late until the come together as a team. I love "Time". I used it a lot. To build a team, the adults must push a program that forces the members of the team to function together. But most important, the program should apply enough stress and struggle to force the team to hold each other accountable. Once the members start lowering their guard with humility and accepting accountability, then they start to bond through trust. I enjoy watching mature patrols because their is no limits to their goals and abilities. Like the mature OA team, mature patrols are naturally servant oriented because they outwardly act toward the rest of the troop they way the act toward each other. No wonder new young scouts are naturally attracted to them. These patrols not only make hard work look easy, they also make it look fun. It's hard for the adults at first to push a program that challenges scouts to the point of storming because they believe the hostile actions toward each other are bad behavior. Truth is the Scout Law guides how to behave in stressful situations. Adults want scouts to feel that stress often so they can learn how to control their actions. As the adults guide the scouts to use humility in their behavior, they will quickly cross the line to Norming. And then it gets fun from there. I know, but I was bored with all the other discussions. So, I started one on a subject that is fun for me. Not that they aren't good discussions, they are. I'm just adding a little variety. Hope you don't mind. Barry

Me too. Often. Barry

I’m just trying to start a discussion of raising the bar, 1 in 10 is an acceptable ratio. Ordeal should weed them out even farther. Still, 28 nights is only 12 camp outs and one summer camp. Not that 30 nights isn’t enough to be an outdoors expert, but most troops don’t even encourage high adventure until 14. Is 12 Car Camping campouts and one summer camp the definition of expert outdoorsmen? I really believe exceptional maturity is the goal along with exceptional expertise of the 8 Methods. You can pick the age, but I believe 13 would be minimum. honestly, I don’t believe this cultural will allow elitism in the program other than Eagles. That is why OA became what it is. This is the generation of mediocrity. Barry

Double, maybe even triple the camping requirements and restrict the number of scouts elected to 1 for every 15 scouts in the troop. Barry

LOL, I truly feel your pain. There seems to be no end of redefinition of expression during these Political Correct times. What next, burn all the old books? But, to be fair, OA started out as a service organization. Well, service and camping organization. The early Arrowmen focus on service and outdoorsmenship They were the best of the best. Selection was more stringent, which is why most Arrowmen early days were looked up as the better Best) Scouts in the unit. I think if OA is to make some kind of comeback, the organization needs to go back to the higher standards of outdoorsmenship and selfless service. I'm not sure how they can go about in this toxic social media world, but even today, there are scouts, then there are the real scouts. OA needs to focus on selfless service (which are really outward actions of the Oath and Law), and expertise in outdoor activities. Those scouts will standout out as noble in the scouting movement. But, I think the change will have to come from within, National hasn't got a clue. Barry

Call the local scout office and ask them for the numbers to the units close to you. Ask them for the day and time of their meetings and go visit. You will likely run into friends. Barry

But they are very close. And the committee sits at the pleasure of the CO, not equal. Council does not like to upset COs because they would rather the COR be the bad guy with enforcement. Council will train and counsel COs, but they rarely wrestle with them. Barry

I'm holding little hope for common sense in our culture anymore. The local paper commentary congratulated the new girls joining the Boy Scouts. "Now the girls aren't treated like second class citizens". My first thought was what the GSUSA thought of the comment. Barry

Ok, I ask the wrong question. You think you were being kind? Sometimes you surprise me. Barry

Do you really believe that’s the same thing! Sheesh! Barry

Up until the 60s (Bill Hillcourt), the BSA had visionaries and founders who when they spoke, everybody listened. We don't have that today. There really is no accountability because there isn't a vision to relate with. Oh, the BSA has their Vision and Mission Statements that hold many of us accountable, but I would guess 2% of scouters could even get close to repeating the intent, much less the words of those goals. Scouters work outside the lines today because there is very little instruction to describe those lines. And if they find themselves in trouble, they dig in because they invested so much of themselves into the role. Humility is rare in this culture. Barry

And to be fair, most of what we get here is one side of the story. As well as our responses tend to be idealistic because we don't have all the story to be pragmatic. We had a troop of 250 scouts with a very Eagle Mill reputation. When I asked some of their scouts and parents why they joined that troop, it was because they really like the program. Is that really so bad? Not my style, but 250 families had no complaints. Barry

It depends a lot on the program. The adults camp is set around 100 yards away from the scouts. Or as out of sight as we can. The adults even reserve a separate campsite at summer camp. The distance prevents that father son camping question. Each have to go out of their way to see each other. Barry

Is there any other benefit to learning skills? What about the practice of setting the goal of learning a skill and developing a plan to to reach the goal? And what about the practice of communication to ask for help to learn, or to show the learned skill. Scouts who practice the traits of initiative, planning, and communication have more self confidence to push the boundaries of their comfort zone. They accel in many of their life decisions, not just advancement. As some here are describing of their own experience, consider the life skills a scout can develop through the practice of learning skills during their scouting experience. Barry

Run your Fall open house a couple of weeks before Cub recruitment night in September, and be sure and get the names and phone numbers of all the youth who visited. Make sure the list is divided up into age groups. Call the parents and explain that you are building the dens and you are just verifying they are still interested. If yes (and most are), ask the parent if they would be interested in being one of the den leaders. Make sure you use plural leaders so they don't feel singled out as THE leader. Its a couple hours of calling, but in most cases we had all our dens built and ready to go before Cub recruitment night. If you get enough new leaders, you might even be able to get District to send a trainer for a private Den Leader training session before they do their official district training. You will be rocking and rolling right out of the box. Barry

Yep, so are our opinions of not focusing on advancing so much. One other thing, our opinions are for all troops, not just one gender. Seems to make a difference I wasn't expecting. Barry

Does your post even make sense? Are all the girls 15 years old? Are there no 11 year olds? Inexperienced leaders shouldn't be forcing advancement so fast. Experienced leaders shouldn't be focused on advancing so fast. All you are talking about is advancing. Why? I admit I haven't led girls, but I can't imagine they joined the BSA only to advance. Surely one of them wants to sleep in a tent and hike up a trail. Surely. Adventure, adventure, adventure. Barry

Boys leave a fun adventurous troop because they aren't advancing? I have never seen that. I know of a lot of scouts who took two years to earn 2nd class, but that was because advancement was the least fun part of their scouting experience. I think you have the right objective of a program letting the scout choose his path of advancing, but the example you are using is not common. Something is missing. We coach adults to build a fun program where any scout can advance "at his pace", whatever that pace is. And quite frankly, that is a difficult program to build because it requires a unit that can attend to a scouts request for learning and showing off new skills 365 days a year. It also requires an adult staff that isn't concerned that some scouts are much slower than others. I'm curious to learn more about this troop. Barry