Eagledad

Ah, we must be talking about your troop. We think differently. Advancement is toward the last subject I discuss with the adults of new units. Advancement starts adults off in an accountability frame of mind. New scouts want to learn how to set up a tent and start a fire. Can they fish at the lake? What is this KP stuff? Adventure, adventure, adventure. Barry

Because even in the best units, all scouts advancing together at the same pace that fast implies a fast track advancement program. Scouts are individuals with individual desires and motivations. I've yet to see a program where pushing scouts through advancement is the best way to keep them interested. Adventure, adventure, adventure. Sadly, many adults seem to believe that happiness comes through advancement. Those are the units without older scouts. Barry

I don't know, when a unit works this hard for advancement, maybe the pencil whipping question is appropriate. It's not a big deal, but I certainly would ask if I were UC just to make sure the adults understand the big picture of fun and adventure. This unit could be led by experienced adults who know how to blow past this part, or inexperienced adults who are trying to rush forward. How much experience do these adults have? Barry

I would be curious to learn how much experience the adults have. Aim and Methods are generally learned skills. Barry

A really good thought provoking post Navybone, thanks. As a mentor, I strive to get the scouts to look at the basic principles of the scouting values. In one sentence, what do the Scout Oath, Scout Law, "do a good turn daily", and so forth have in common. What is the cornerstone principle for the actions of the scouting values? My style of mentoring is guide the scout to answer his questions, because the process of self conclusions is the profound motivation to change a habit. It's one thing to be obedient because the adults says so, it's different when the scout determines it is the right thing to do. I want the scout to answer to himself why he acted the way he did. As I stated before, I'm skeptical of a 10 year old making a protest of this nature. Acting out of step of the herd exposes one to danger, which is why the behavior is not instinctive at this age. Barry

The only time our scouts are required to wear the uniform is during travel. We learned 50 to 75 teenagers running around at road stops can make people pretty nervous. The uniform connects scouts to adults. Ironically, we also found the folks at stops act a little better when surrounded by scouts in uniform. That still amazes me. Barry

From my life experiences, you are the rare exception. Barry

Cubs go where their parents take them. The 10 year old wasn’t motivated to protest on his own. The BSA has become an outlet for political expression. When the gays were using the BSA for their own purpose of expression, I talked to several cub age parents who said they weren’t joining the BSA because they wanted their family involved in something that didn’t encourage political discourse. Ironically I hear the same thoughts about watching Sunday football. Barry

I’m not sure what is confusing about this. If you don’t know how to work on cars, you take it to an expert. National isn’t in the business of doing research, so they go to experts. The question is what do the three organizations expect from the study. Something! Barry

I assure you that National is quite involved because they are the main beneficiaries of the study results. The research professionals have the credentials and expertise to design and manage the study. I expect Montclair will produce some publications from the study as well. Barry

I'm not sure that is the case. Most of the added processes I've observed over the years came from perfectionist. Their interpretation of the process is actually more work or grief for them (as well as the scout), but that's ok because it's being done the right way. To them, the more complicated process is actually more efficient because it tracks all the dotting of the "I"s and crossing of all the "T"s. It's really what National meant to say. Barry

I was part of a polled group when National was writing NYLT. Very little of the results I saw are in the course. I'm very skeptical because my observation is that National interprets data to fit in their predetermined plan instead of using it to question the present program. Take for example First Class in the First Year commitment. National found in their study that scouts who earn a first class rank in one year tend to stay in the troop for at least three years. So, they encouraged units to get scouts to first class in one year, even putting that promise in writing in all the Scout Handbooks. You can guess where that went. The program switched from one of adventure where scouts can also advance, to a program of advancement and, ... well keep advancing. One of the most common Wood Badge ticket items after that promised commitment was getting all new scouts to first class quickly. However, we found from research in our area that scouts who just stayed in the program at least one year, regardless of rank, likely stayed in the troop for at least 3 years. In fact, we found that if a scout was still active after their first summer camp, odds were they were committed for several years. We also found that the troops with higher numbers of scouts who stay in after a year had the more active fun outdoor programs. They were the better performing overall programs in our area. Scouts in those troops tended to advance to 1st Class within 14 months. Add one other statistic that the highest drop out rate in the BSA is the first year scouts. Hmmmm. So, how should a responsible district advise troops knowing all that data? By the way, when we looked at the numbers of first year drop out rates at a National level 20 years AFTER National instigated First Class in the First Year program along with Troop guides and age based patrols, we found that the first year drop out rates were the same. In fact, I was told that the rate was about the same since the 60s, although I have no idea where they got those results. That attacked the wrong part of the troop program, so they ended up with the same results. So, while I'm glad National is trying to use real time data to improve the program, they have never shown me that the data results preceeded the agenda. Yes, I know that my earned skepticism is a downer in this discussion, but consider it a warning for keeping an open mind. Of course National could surprise me. Barry

Yep. This is a very educational thread. Almost ironic. Barry

I'm sure you mean any book or document he might have read in the past. Barry

It's not scripture. Barry

Create some kind of communications station for aliens to phone home. I've seen the concept in theory. Barry

Refer to your post yesterday about delegating. I'm only disagreeing with your should. Managing a quality program may not require 1 of the 10 adult camping experts. I can see it in a small troop, but one benefit of a big troop is the large pool of resources. Barry

I don't agree with "SHOULD". Coming from the troop of 100 scouts, I believe the SM's primary responsibility is to manage a quality program. If a SM can fit in MB counseling, great. But "SHOULD"? Barry

It's restricting freedom of expression, plain and simple. But this is a private forum, so restricting a discussion by the owner is also a form freedom of expression. What I didn't like was the implication that the disagreements were hostile and unscout like and dangerous to youth. On the contrary, I felt most opinion were well thought out and set the example of safe discussion environment for a difficult subject. Implying that is was dangerous to youth was sad. Barry

As I've said many times here, training is the place to start change. But, someone has to justify and make the change, and someone has to train it. Barry

We marketed it as giving adds to make their job easier. Just an hour to pass along a few hints. The packs learned after the first year the information was in their best interest, not ours. If you do it, bring in someone that actually has some good ideas based from experience. Barry

For those who like grits, add a Bouillon cube to the water when heating to boil. Barry

Our district invites all the pack leaders for cookies and coffee one evening a few weeks before school starts for a prep course in getting them up to speed for cub recruiting. We discuss best proven methods for recruiting the boys, recruiting the adult leaders and follow through after cub recruitment night. It's presented as easier paths to recruiting. For Pack leaders, there are two opportunities for recruiting leaders. Locally our elementary schools have a schedule pickup day where all the families come to the school to get their kids teacher and room assignments. Experience has shown that packs set up a display and get names and phone numbers of possible new scouts can get 90% of their new scouts committed before recruiting night. From that list the adults use the numbers to call the parents and discuss leadership possibilities. If they do it right, they will know 90% of the roster of the pack even before sign up night. The other opportunity is the one you are thinking about, approach the parent personally and explain the pack's need. In my experience, 80% of parents approached personally will agree in way or another to it a try. The pack may need to compromise to the parents concerns, but they usually settle into the position within a few weeks. As you probably know, many parents want to do something, but just too shy or afraid to ask. It's a lot more detailed of meeting with other guidelines for running a smoother program, but that is the quick answer to your question. Barry

Why wait for National? Start at the Council or district level. Change comes from training. The higher the level, the better. I taught adult leader recruiting to pack leaders just before cub recruiting season. Barry

One man's lemons is another man's business opportunity. I see positive suggestions being presented. Barry