Eagledad

Our district invites all the pack leaders for cookies and coffee one evening a few weeks before school starts for a prep course in getting them up to speed for cub recruiting. We discuss best proven methods for recruiting the boys, recruiting the adult leaders and follow through after cub recruitment night. It's presented as easier paths to recruiting. For Pack leaders, there are two opportunities for recruiting leaders. Locally our elementary schools have a schedule pickup day where all the families come to the school to get their kids teacher and room assignments. Experience has shown that packs set up a display and get names and phone numbers of possible new scouts can get 90% of their new scouts committed before recruiting night. From that list the adults use the numbers to call the parents and discuss leadership possibilities. If they do it right, they will know 90% of the roster of the pack even before sign up night. The other opportunity is the one you are thinking about, approach the parent personally and explain the pack's need. In my experience, 80% of parents approached personally will agree in way or another to it a try. The pack may need to compromise to the parents concerns, but they usually settle into the position within a few weeks. As you probably know, many parents want to do something, but just too shy or afraid to ask. It's a lot more detailed of meeting with other guidelines for running a smoother program, but that is the quick answer to your question. Barry

Why wait for National? Start at the Council or district level. Change comes from training. The higher the level, the better. I taught adult leader recruiting to pack leaders just before cub recruiting season. Barry

One man's lemons is another man's business opportunity. I see positive suggestions being presented. Barry

I did not say every troop, but I do believe 90%. First off, adult resources is always a challenge and the "easy" solution is coed. Second, the mindset will start with the coed Cub Scout program. Third, National will tend toward coed because one general style is easier to train and deliver at the professional level. My ,prognostication, is based from a lifetime of watching humans follow the natural instinct of taking the path of least resistance. However, I like your Czech, prognostication, because it "feels" good (I guess there is some liberalism in all of us). I hope you are right. Barry

Yes, however those of us who understand the dynamics of the BSA structure, and still have some ability to rationalize pragmatically, know that blending is inevitable for the majority of COs. It's simple matter of math. Oh, there will be some maverick troops for boys only, but it's not like there will be a lot of choices for finding a good patrol method program. Boys are getting the short end on this one. However, the Badon Powell scouts couldn't survive because their organization didn't have a solid base support like the BSA. I wonder if something like Badon Powell scouts could combine with the BSA (or whatever they will call it) as the solution for a boys only scout patrol within the CO. It would function more like a autonomous patrol, so it wouldn't demand the adult support of a full troop. Kind of a Lone Patrol program. The blended troop does their thing, the Lone Patrol does its thing. All within the support of the CO. National would go for it because it means more money. Ironically, the GSUSA is a working model of the structure for a Lone Patrol. They call them troops, but patrols or troops, it's all in the spelling. Barry

Good questions. What has been lost from camporees is the bragging rights of winning. The older Scouts when I was a scout drove the younger Scouts to be experts in all the skills because they were either trying to hold on and their reputation or trying to make one. Today camporees are just skill demonstrations. Nothing new or different from most troop advancement programs. So, there’s very little to get a young adult exited. I don’t see the serious competition of camporees, not sure why. Maybe they’ve developed such a bad reputation that there is know going back. Maybe there is very few of us who remember how to do it that way. I don’t know. So, cleaver themes are the secret to bringing the older Scouts back. We find the older Scouts like planning and leading skills demonstrations more than participating. Our troop has ran several troop level skills theme weekends under the themes of Star Wars, star trek, and a couple I don’t remember. They even planned and ran a couple of trooporees where we invited other troops. Our scouts’ favorites skills theme activities are night competitions (boys love an excuse to stay up all night) where all the Patrols go to a Campfire around 10 or 11 o’clock and are launched to their events after the fire is over. The usually finish around 3:00 in the morning. The adults treat them by cooking the breakfast. Another favorite is the triathlon theme camp out where Patrols had to ride their bikes several miles, backpack a few miles and canoe at to different locations on a lake. The Patrols had to use map and compass the whole time to find each of the 16 the skills and competitions through the course. That was, along with a couple our of free time (mostly bikes) is the most exhausted I have ever seen our Scouts. They cut Sunday activities short because they were just plain whipped. 😂 Our older Scouts loved planning these things and always did very well. The only adult involvement is being a resource for the older Scouts. Barry

Just saying. Barry

I believe there will be two types of family scouting adults: One type is the adult who wants a program that builds character for their kids along with the convenience of bringing the whole family. The other type wants an outdoor get away from the city for the weekend with the whole family. Both believe they are using the program as intended. Because National let "Family Scouting" out the bag, they gave parents permission to think of unit as family program, leaving them to build toward their interpretation. Council will be spending a lot of time sorting it out. Everyone likes to use countries outside the US as a models of success, but I'm curious if any of them use the program for family. Is there a model somewhere out their that we can can compare. Barry

The wife of a friend was at the state level when the changes were made. She said removing the principles of faith did them in. Nothing they did after that stopped the bleeding. However, it was going coed that motivated the BSA to start the Tiger program. Barry

Ya know Shortridge, you have a choice. I'm sure the moderators can explain it better, but you simply choose not to enter discussions or read the posts that you don't find personally useful. Barry

We do it exactly the way your first troop does it. We present our Eagles with a patch at the first troop meeting after their EBOR. I even presented my Webelos with their awards at the den meetings. Barry

Exactly right. We also had a shy stuttering scout who turned out to be a great SPL. What most adults don't understand about boys is that puberty changes everything in their human nature. You really don't know what a scout is capable of until after puberty. We had several young scouts who were a pain the rear as young scouts, then fantastic mature leaders after puberty. That is why older scout role models are so important. 90% of the skills older scouts use after the age 14 were learned when they were young scouts watching older scouts role models. We had one older scout transfer that was terrified to take a leadership position in our troop because so much was expected compared of them to his previous troop. It was no big deal for our scouts because that was all they knew. Quality of a troop program is measure by the performance of the older scouts because that is the highest level of skilled performance. That scares the troop leaders that can't hold on to their older scouts. Barry

Yes, I wasn't commenting on your specific situation. I was only adding some clarification of the councils expectations with units in regard of discipline. Barry

Unless laws are broken, council would rather the units deal with these issues first. Our experience has been that when the parents are brought in at the very beginning, these issues quickly work themselves out. In fact, I can't think of a situation where we had continued problems once the parents were brought into the discussion. They don't like bad behavior anymore than unit leaders. It's only when the unit disciplines their son before notifying the parents that lawyers get involved. It is really that simple, but I am amazed of how many scouters believe their scout leader title qualifies them to discipline other parents' sons without notification. Many, even think they are setting an example for the parents of how to deal with bad behavior. I even see it even on this forum. But, Scouters can be hot heads too. Summer camps are bit more challenging because of distance and the stress cause by long physically demanding week in the out door environment. I used to coach our adults about mid week to be alert to the stress and to help support each other if they feel one of us over reacting. The camp staff will also be glad to help. They like to nip problems in the bud. Worst case scenarios, we call the parents to pick their son up. We give the parents basic information, but don't discuss discipline until the troop gets back and the adults had time to rest. 9 times out of 10, the parents have taken care of the situation. Again, parents don't like bad behavior anymore than unit adult leaders. It is also a good idea to give a report to the COR or District leadership, if for no other reason then to have another opinion. In our case, the COR could care less, but our District Commissioner was very helpful in these situations. But, everyone outside of the unit would rather the unit deal with the situation first before being "pulled" into the drama. I found the only time we pulled outsiders in was with adult bad behavior because parents generally handled scout bad behavior. The OP here has a more difficult situation because the spouse has created some confusion, but that doesn't change these suggestions. The unit should start with the parents, and then move up if they must. Barry

I grew up on the mountain breakfast as a scout. It was a breakfast favorite. But we never used the dutch oven. We did it all in a pot on the fire. Took about 20 minutes if we brown the potatoes with the sausage. Saved 10 minutes if we boiled the potatoes the night before and three them with the eggs. Mmmm mmm. Now my son cooks them for his family. Barry

The reasoning behind split units not working well is the adults. Successful units generally have one or two adults with the Vision and program ideas for success. Some adults are just good big picture visionaries who keep the rest of the adults on track. So, when the unit splits, one unit is left without the visionary driving adult. Understanding that reality might motivate a few adults to follow and learn from the visionary adult. Maybe even have that adult visit the other unit often enough to advise. But, keep in mind that all adults have different experiences of life and expectations of program processes. If leading a scouting unit were so easy, they would all be successful. Of course everyone has their own idea of success, but If I were a new adult looking to build a new unit off another unit, I would look for the most successful unit I could find. They are doing something right. I agree that is an ideal plan. But understand that every unit leadership has an ideal plan. So consider why some units do so much better. The one advantage of the new girls program is that the leaders are forced to admit they are starting something new in unknown territory, which may allow them enough humility to seek knowledge instead of following their own idealistic theories. Barry

You might be right. Statistically, a 2nd unit that splits from a very successful first unit is rarely as successful, while the first continues it's success. The risk of failure was so high for the 2nd unit that our district chairman only considered a split as a last resort. Which made council angry. I know in theory linked troops are a sound idea to get the girls side up, but that hasn't been proven successful in reality. So, the two teachable adults might be required for the 2nd troop. Barry

My deepest apologies. I'm at an age that when I look back, I've seen how my thoughts, attitudes and perceptions changed on the path my experiences. I was only trying to say that as you gain experiences, you will likely see these discussions differently. Some of the posts appear condescending and disrespectful, but when we read them in the context of who sent the post and considering their level of experience on the subject, asking what exactly they meant is the better approach. A further explanation might some food for thought, or just as important, give the other person a moment of pause to step back on their words. I have empathy for your struggle to feel as comfortable with experienced male leaders as you do with the female leaders. It may be you have a timid personality, but I agree with the other poster, nothing like experience to feel confident with advice and guidance. And remember, integrity comes from the humility of learning, not from loud words fueled by pride and arrogance. We all have our reasons for the 1 hour a week we give to the BSA. Some are noble, some are not. The difference is who you are trying to serve. Barry

Wow! Some of the last few post are kind of scary. To answer your question, call the SM first to learn exactly where the troop is with your son. Then you can discuss better the future. Barry

WM describes our pack. We also make the pinewood derby night family night. We usually do it on a Friday night so as not to worry about school the next day. The first 30 minutes are siblings racing old cars built in previous years. We sell a meal of hot day, chips, cookie and coke for a very reasonable price. The CM gets the crowd doing cheers and tells jokes during the quiet periods. While the scouts build and race the cars, the evening is truly a family night out. To keep the time reasonable (90 minutes), we run two tracks (borrow one from another pack) with each scout seeing his car race a minimum of around 8 times. Chairs are set as close to the tracks as possible so everyone can see and feel being part of the race. Ah, those were good times. Barry

Quite right. What I meant by agenda is a program created specifically to keep older scouts around. I believe 80% of Venturing Crews are created to keep older scouts in the program, not to add an additional adventure opportunity. That motivation drives toward the wrong kind of program and eventually looses most of the scouts. Older scouts still need the responsibilities of running a troop program, but the program should be designed so that scouts don't feel forced or trapped into responsibilities and activities. Some older scouts are good leaders, most are not. The rest of the older scouts are still part of a team and they should be expected to be good team members that support a common agenda. Those 10 adults that go on our camp outs were more than ready and willing to help at what ever was expected or asked of them because the effort in those task were trivial to their motivation of spending time with like minded friends. Barry

No, but having the clear vision of a youth Scouting experience does have a very distinct advantage in building a patrol method program. Yep, that traits certainly help in building a quality program, but experience and history show that starting with the vision of experience has an distinct advantage for getting patrol method up to speed. Does that really surprise you? We will just have to agree to disagree. But let me ask you, when building your dream house, are you hiring a contractor who is building his first, or an experienced contractor. Your response not logical for finding real solutions. I also believe that 99.99 percent of men without a youth scouting experience are at a distinct disadvantage. But, the new membership policy will likely bring in a lot more inexperienced moms than dads. I believe you are being more offensive than me in your response because you are letting a bad choice of words ignore important facts. I'm not sure I would say that fact that way, but I certainly believe that. I know you are an engineer, but in my work, I rely and facts and figures to determine direction and design, not theories and emotions. If we can see that the new influx of adults joining don't have clue, we should prepare ourselves with that fact to better deal with the future of the program. 21st Century Wood Badge was a reaction to the negative effects of the new adult membership policy. We (well I) know better now. Your comments would be more respected if you acted less offended and were more correcting. I have no problem with the fact that a large influx of moms are coming and that will create a greater challenge for the BSA, or whatever they call it. While wording could have been better, the facts don't change, a challenge is coming. Those who start looking for ideas now will be that much farther ahead in the future. If the good-ol-boys club (which presently is a large portion female) and the inexperienced moms influx are to move forward, they must both agree with the realities and work together for solutions. Barry

When I was SM, our troop averaged around 10 adults at every camp out. We are a very boy run program, so those adults knew they weren't hanging around interfering with the scouts. Oh, if the program allowed them to participate (like shooting sports or bicycling or something fun) without intruding on the patrol's patrol method, they could be seen in the mix. But in general, the adults weren't in sight of the boys. So where were they? 40% of our scouts were 14 and older. I once polled them to learn exactly what kept them hanging around. Only 25% said it was the outdoors adventure part of the program. So why did the rest of them hang around? Are the 14 and older scouts much different from the adults that came on our camp outs? I was very active in the Scuba Diving Explorers for a couple of years. I had so much fun with that Post, but because of the cost of travel for diving, I attended very few scuba outings. I just enjoyed hanging out with adults who liked the water. I was the president of your collegiate flying club. We were very active, to the point of presenting airshows that included the Thunderbirds and Confederate Air Force. Over 60% of our officers and most active members were not pilots. There are a lot of theories on older scouts and keeping them around, but I learned the hard way that all of us are adults. Some of us just have more of life's experiences than others. But, we are all adults. So, why do we struggle to treat the 14 year old scouts equal to parent age adults in the troop, or even Crews? The adults in our troop just wanted to hang out with like minded people in the out doors. No real agenda, just hang out. The other 3/4 of our older scouts just wanted to hang out with like minded people in the out doors. Is there no room in the Troop/Venturing program for scouts to just hang out with scouts? Does there always have to be some agenda to sway, coax, or bribe scouts to come? 3 out of 5 Venturing crews fail after three years. Most troops loose 90% of their 15 and older scouts. Ironically, the most adults of failed Venturing Crews came from Troops of failed older scout programs. The challenge for the parent age adults is building a troop/venturing program where young adult scouts can sometimes just hang out with their like mind friends without any agenda intended to bribe them there. Barry

OK, then 99.99 percent of women don't have a youth boy scout experience. All women have a lot to offer. I have raised and trained many good female leaders. Many. And many of them have more to offer than men (Well yes, because I trained them). But, we have found that a Troop without experienced adults take twice as long to get up to speed as units with even just one experienced scouter. Youth experience can make that much difference. I used to teach teachable moments in our council. I didn't call the course that, but the material was exactly what qwazse described. Learn how to not let your fears stop the boys experience. Little by little everyday. Some men needed the course as much as women. But in general, all moms needed the course. I believe you are being overly sensitive, would it feel better to talk about scouters as "X"s and "O"s? Well I guess now "Z"s too. As you are learning, running a quality program is hard. It requires adults questioning and evaluating all the time how the program is moving. An adult run troop is a lot easier than a patrol method troop because controlling a herd in one corral is easier than working with each individual scout in the open field at their maturity and pace. Do you really want you make it harder by believing in the good-ol-boys are out to get you? I assure you good-ol-boys clubs are few and very far between. As you gain experience in this scouting stuff, a light bulb is going to open your eyes. You will see that boys really are different than girls, even as adults. And, working with those differences is a lot easier than working against them. I know you think you understand the differences now, but if you did, you wouldn't let the little truths bother you. You would use them to make the rough road of the bigger picture smoother. Barry

Ok, I’m sure you’re right. But when I meet a new mom in the troop, I’m 100 % sure she doesn’t have any Boy Scout youth experience. With dads, I start by asking if. You may feel that’s a bad rap, but how does a unit deal the situation if they aren’t willing to admit reality. That being said, I’m guessing the discussions here of problematic adult leaders are 4 men to every woman. Barry