Eagledad

Yep, let’s monitor scouts closely and tell them what they can say, or rather not say. At least within hearing distance of the adults anyway. My usual advice is for the adults set the example with their actions and choices. But, that appears to be risky here. barry

Yep, repeating the same program over and over drives out the older scouts because even though they have achieved all the advancement requirements, they end up teaching them over and over. They want to be role models, not babysitters. Scouts want adventure and the adults want (should want) behavior growth. The 8 methods do a very good job of guiding the scouts in a fun and rewarding program. I find that while most young scouts aren't very interested in advancement, they become more ambitious as they get older. From a Eagles per Scouts perspective, our troop after five years was producing the 2nd most Eagles in the district. And the adults didn't push them. Well accept for parents. My point is that if the adults make sure the scouts are enjoying all of the program, they will stay long enough to eventually want more advancement in their experience. Balance of the 8 methods builds a solid program. The experience should be the motivator to grow with advancement, not the program directive. Barry

You are not a poor instructor. The FAA found in their research that Aviation GPS manufacturers needed to develop some commonality in their user interfaces so pilots didn't have to relearn a system every time they jumped into a different airplanes. Most pilots rent airplanes, so flying a different airplane each flight is not unusual. Barry

I can see why you think that. But, I believe I'm being fair that there is a lot of woman bolstering in our culture these days. My point is a lot of adults want the girls program to be successful, and they are pushing the girl units a differently than boy units to generate that success at the expense of the boys. It's the nature of adults. Most districts see adult driven agendas for one reason or another all the time. But, adding girls to a national program brings out a national commonality for adults wanting to prove the success of girl units. We already see it in the press. And as I said before, one local paper had a cartoon that said "now the girls aren't treated as underclass anymore." My response to that cartoon was wondering how the GSUSA leadership feel about being consider underclass, or are they treating boys as underclass. Barry

Here is where I started with my ASMs. I had them read the BSA Mission and Vision first. Then I had them read the 3 Aims and 8 Methods. In your case, ask what priority is advancement? The Mission and Visions sets the goals for the adults. The 3 Aims are how the adults measure their performance, leaving the scouts responsible for the 8 Methods. Surely even your ASM can see setting up camp and cooking meals is a high priority. The hard part for new adults is sorting out the complexity of the program in an understandable format to run a measurably productive unit. Adults (especially new adults) generally fixate on advancement (and uniforms) because those two parts of the program are easy to administer and easy to measure. It's the easiest way for adults to feel good about the program. BUT, advancement is boring to new scouts who joined an outdoor adventure program. The program needs balance and the adults need to learn how to guide the scouts to plan their balance. So, compromise with your ASM; do a little camping, a little cooking, a little hiking, and a little advancement. Balance and fun. Barry

Ah, never to late for men to learn. What age do girls instantly become experts at boy scout skills? That's nice, I'm sure you are proud. I would be too. But this has nothing to do with my post. There is no defense for a new one month old Troop of girls taking top honors at a Camporee in a Youth Lead Program. Someone had an agenda and I struggle to believe it was the girls. And to prove what? Adults in girls troops are better than adults in boys troops? And I'm sure they are having more fun too. Your whining to the wrong person. I'm a character developer, not an Eagle maker. I believe rank shouldn't be hurried. Balance program of the 8 Methods should be the priority. Your patrol is functioning normal in our troop and your sitting higher on my admiration scale. Patience and humility are the qualities of the best adult leaders. You seem to have a good start. Thumbs up and starting a youth run patrol method program. Barry

This is exactly how I would have done it. We have a large wooded city park near us that is ideal for orienteering, so we move the troop meeting to the park for this kind of stuff . The scouts welcome a refreshing change from the CO location, especially in the Spring. Barry

Are you saying that the normal natural talents of these girls in a patrol method program were enough to earn them the highest skills awards in the district, in just one month? Somebody was trying to prove something. Was it the girls? The list was warned about this. There is a reason single gender is preferred for growth in this age group. Not just scouts, but any area where growth is the primary objective. When one gender has an advantage to gain recognition or power over the other gender, the other gender naturally feel disheartened and belittled. The natural reaction is retreating away from the situation. In this case, the boys aren't just competing against girls, but the adults as well. If the girls really are that good, then there is no hope because I've never heard of a new scouts doing so well so fast. But, it's not really that, boys aren't stupid. The well dressed cheering adults standing next to that troop is the real advantage against boy run troops were adults are encourage to stand back. Why in the world would boys want to join an organization where girls are continually propped up as the good of scouting, and given advantages in their competition. Who wants that? We saw it on this forum for the last year. "Let the girls show the boys how to do it". Hey, if Sablanck had a boys troop leave the camporee with all the awards, would he give a big thumbs up for boys? Truth is the boys are going to have to put up with this stuff for quite awhile because women are the thing these days. It's on the news, the movies, and sports. Hey, what is the national theme this month? Meanwhile the boys are expected to keep doing their patrol method without the same kind of adult assistance for performance. And when the patrols are mixed, adults will praise the great leadership of the weaker sex as well. As I said, I observed over the years that girls are instinctively detail minded and that is an advantage over the instinctively visionary boys. Many adults will enjoy and justify the great leadership of the girls, and even how girls are more mature and better at these things. Adults can't help themselves, but at the same time, the boy run program now requires adult intervention just to kind of keep growth fair. Growth through independence will fade away and be replaced by accolades of advancement recognition and the stature of leadership. It's the times I guess. Remember your story of your daughter slapping the hand of the "Oklahoma" Boy who offered his help. Explain again why slapping away the offering of help "from a boy" was a good thing? Barry

Yep, definitely a great motivator to encourage more boys to join. Barry

Hmm. Usually I answer these questions with "Take the scouts for a ride in an airplane." I'll have to think on this one. Barry

Pretty good. Now, how about those knots? Barry

Your advice has always been very good and wanted. It's probably me. My kids even tell me that I can be too simplistic in discussions. "There goes dad being black and white again. We need some gray dad." But I've just developed a style over the years of where understanding the very basic of the subject first helps folks understand better how expand in a productive direction. Which is exactly what your post provided in this discussion. Barry

By the way DuctTape, my Webelos got just about all their requirements completed on outdoors outings and campouts, having fun. Barry

Nobody said that, you aren't reading the replies in their context. The question was what was our interpretation of the written requirement. What about the knots, DuctTape? Most troops sit and show the scout how to tie a knot and then demonstrate the knot. The text doesn't "Demonstrate the the knot in the field on a camping device". The creativity of how to teach the knot is left up to the troop. Rock Doc made up the car scenario, not some scout. Rockdoc ask what if, but the text is quite clear on the expectations. If a SM wants the scout to gain more from the experience, then they need to be creative and plan an activity for the scouts. Barry

What if a pilot offers to take a plane of scouts flying to follow courses they set in the GPS. That would be pretty cool. I fail to understand how setting the course in the car is different than following a simple course set up by troop adults in the field. Barry

Well, while I understand outdoor adventure of Boy Scouting is a natural influence for your "learning how to use a GPS for backcountry travel", I don't see that much detail in the wording of the requirement. I think back of the compass skills I learned as a youth, I was pretty good. Yet, I learn those skills on compass courses in town. I later got to apply those skills on adventure trips and enhanced my skills. I can't say you are right or wrong, but I think adults should model honesty in the respecting the rules. I think what set our troop program apart from many programs around us is that we broaden the experiences of many requirements by adding adventure. If you want the scouts to gain more from any requirement, set up an activity to give them that adventure. Hey, maybe even figure out how to use a drone to add fun. Be creative. Barry

Ah, thanks for the clarification. To answer question, it would depend on the knowledge he gained from the experience. What exactly do you think are the minimum skills that are intended to be learned? What do you think are the additional skills the scout would enjoy experiencing to broaden his knowledge and enjoyment from the requirement. My previous post still stands, guide and advise the scout to broaded the experience beyond the minimal requirement so that the scout not only learns the minimum skills, they also have fun. Scouting should be fun and adventurous. Help the scout have fun and adventure. Barry

You are giving and example of how personal perspective can add (or takeaway) experience to the intent. The requirement is pretty clear and the MB Counselor should explain the minimum actions for a successful completion of the requirement. However, a good MB Counselor would provide additional information or perspective to enrich the scout's experience. There would be no need for experts of the particular MBs if the only expectation was minimal effort for the requirements. Barry

Out of the hundreds of scouts that attended summer camp while I a leader, I can remember two that were absolutely miserable, no matter what we did to help them. Both those scouts were in the same situation of good caring single mothers who put their sons in scouting to give them some experiences with independence. I agree with the comments that this is a difficult to answer your question because each scout is different as well as not knowing the adults of the troop. I'm sure you are being as up front with the troop as you are with us, so this may just take some gradual steps. I will throw out one possibility if it comes to this point, there are some older scouts or past scouts who might be willing to personally assist and guide your son if you pay for his camp fees. I wish you all the success because I have seen that whatever your son is struggling, you as a mother are struggling that much more. Barry

You and Matt have very wise insight. A scout doesn’t have to be mean or stubborn to be challenging, they can have significant mental challenges or be physical handicaps. I remember having one such discussion as the patrols were setting up camp. A new Patrol Leader who just receive a mentally retarded scout was finding the scout challenging. He was concerned, so we both sat down and came up with ideas together. Truth was the new scout was a new challenge for all of us. So were were all in the dark. I could tell when we separated, the PL was going to make it work. But I think what gave him the most confidence wasn’t so much our ideas, but that he and the SM were going into this as a team to make it work. He wasn’t alone. I can think of a dozen scouts over the years who significantly challenged their patrols. One of the ways we handled it was by reminding the PLC that they were a team. If one of them needed help in any way, ask the nearby youth leader for advice or help. But, more importantly, if you see a youth leader struggling, walk over before he even ask for the help to show support. I especially reminded the older scout of this expectation. Scouts learn the most by observing; as the young scouts observe these actions over the years, the troop culture matures in its habits and expectations. What I found as our troop matured was that we adults heard less of behavior challenges. As Cambridge is pointing out, the scouts have developed the skills to deal with all kinds of behavior and nipped the possible problem situations in the bud before they escalated into a problem. That doesn’t happen overnight, but cultural maturity grows faster than you would think. Of course mature troops can have their own problems, like what are the adults supposed to do when the scouts are smarter than them?😳 Barry

Pre-judge is bit harsh, the OP is simply listening to his scouts and planning ahead. How would you have even able to provide your suggestions without a request for ideas. Barry

Badon Powell used this concept as well, and I had one scout who fit this this model. But I agree with qwazse, you don’t know until you try. We had one terrier of a scout that changed his ways when he realized we weren’t taking anymore of his crap and assigned an adult to be at his side every moment of his scouting experience. When he realized we wanted him out, he changed. I still remember the very moment the lightbulb turned on in his head. What we learned later was he was adopted and his parents realized they didn’t want him. We were babysitters to give the parents alone time and this scout knew it. He was rebelling and trying to get negative attention from his parents. But when he realized the troop had reached its limits, he didn’t want to loose scouting. He may have been rebelling, but he liked the program. He is now an Eagle. You just don’t know. The hard part is getting the scouts to except him as part of the patrol. I also had scouts that wouldn’t (couldn’t?) change and eventually quit. Scouting is hard. No two scouts are alike. Throw in a few problem parents and you find yourself loosing sleep. Barry

Great Question because so few troops look at their program in this way. They have expectations but don't really analyze why the scouts aren't meeting them. Instead of stepping back, reflecting and trying something new, they react by intruding and pushing. Now, I'm not saying adults should never provide input to boost the program, scouts simply run out of ideas. But, when a scout has to be continually told to wear his uniform properly, something is a miss. Scouts need self motivation to grow, not the threat of adult intimidation. The reason I rather used mixed age patrols instead of same age patrols is that we used both of them and the growth of scouts in same age patrols was unquestionably slower. We didn't care which style we used, we just wanted productive growth. We were able to observe the two types of patrols side-by-side and the growth of young scouts with continued older scout role models excelled over the new scouts who waited for Troop Guides and adults to push them along. So, we made a change to our program, a big change. We mixed the new scouts into the existing patrols as fast as possible. But we tried to evaluate every little part of our program like that. What worked and what didn't work. Maybe we were obsessive about it, I don't know. But we were doing something right, the troop grew from 15 scouts to 100 scouts in five years and we didn't even go looking for new scouts. And that was after loosing 50% of our new scouts the first couple years when we were learning. Yes, we live in different times. Youth today aren't used to disciplined structure that we were raised in, so they need A LOT more or different motivation to reach expectations. And frankly, different expectations. When I was a scout, my SM was a pilot. He challenged all the patrols to complete against each other in inspections, skills competitions, and living by the Oath and Law. The patrol with the most points in six months would get a plane ride. That was some motivation. As a pilot myself, I made the same challenge as my mentor, and while the patrols put in some effort, it basically fell flat. It's not that they scouts weren't willing to compete, they just weren't into the same challenges. For one thing, youth today are used to instant gratification. Six months turned them off from the start. Also, skills are boring. When I was a youth, knots supported everything from tents to camp gadgets. Today everything is held together with bungie cords. Yet, when the PLC came up with the idea of a Triathlon campout of hiking, biking and canoeing, through 16 different skills stations, ALL the scouts were all in. There was no plane ride for motivation, the pure fun of hiking biking and canoeing, (mostly biking) drew them to compete. That was not the adults idea, that was all scout. There is a quote somewhere by Badon Powell where he talks about the Scoutmaster being the older brother of the patrols. I think that is what he meant. Adults and older brothers think differently, have different motivations and different visions of adventure. The adults have to change hats and become big brothers to find the expectations that motivate today's scouts. I know that sounds simplistic, but if the adults don't find their motivation, the troop will struggle or become adult run. Side note: I got a call from the Pack of 30 Webelos that wanted to camp with us to see our troop in action. We knew nothing of this pack, but I told them about the Triathlon campout we were doing this weekend. However she would have to call the SPL because the PLC would only have 4 days to prepare for 30 Webelos and their parents to camp with us. I didn't know what the SPL would say, but he was up for it. The Webelos and their parents were so tired from Saturday's activities that they skipped Sunday breakfast to go home. We honestly weren't sure if they felt our troop was a bit too much and would join another troop. Silly us, all 30 scouts joined. I think the best answer is to keep trying. Find motivations that appeal to the scouts. I mentioned how our scout learned how to work together in breaking camp in one hour. The motivation was stopping for some junk food on the way home. It is as simple as that. But as I said, they not only broke the one hour goal, they got better and better to where 80 scouts broke camp in 30 minutes. Once they got inertia to work better as a team, they kept going. Not only did they break camp faster, they complained less and helped each other more. You have no idea how much the influences younger scouts. For the older scout to just walk over to help you fold a tent and them move on means so much to them. Those young scouts grow up to be older scouts helping younger scouts. Role modeling really works. I still am amazed by it. I didn't realize how big a deal the habits developed from breaking camp was until a trail guide we had on a backpacking trip commented that our crews were the fastest boy scout crews he had ever seen for breaking camp. He said the average crew took two hours where our took 20 minutes. He said our crews could sleep in a little the rest of the trip if we wanted because he would have to adjust his normal schedule. Using that reward was a shot in the dark. Yes, stopping for junk food became a bit of a tradition, but it gave us so many benefits that we didn't mind. I'm sure I will come up with a lot of other things we learned along the way. But, if you can start tuning into your scouts world and find what gets them excited, I think you are clever enough to use that leverage to your advantage. One other example, our scouts were pretty good at annual planning. Annual planning was one of the first action items for the PLC after elections. Well, these things always took about 8 hours because scouts loose focus. I don't remember who thought of it, but we decided to combine a lock-in where after the planning is done, the scouts do all-night video games with all the pizza they could eat. Wow!, we finished our annul planning "IN 3 HOURS". And they got better each time after. Imagine 12 months of planning in 2 HOURS. Did we adults see that coming, NOOOO! Not only did the PLC Annual Planning Lock-in motivate the scouts to be more efficient with planning, the PLC was the envy of all the scouts. Scouts ran for office just for Annual Planning night. Of course they learned that PLC works very hard and the lock-in was more of a reward than a carrot. I challenge any troop to run a better annual planning session. My advice is don't be satisfied with low performance. Keep trying new ideas. Some ideas stick, some don't. And respect your PLC as mature adults. If you respect them, they will work like the dickens for you. One example of that respect was a time I wanted to change our six month elections to one year elections. Every troop I visited with one year elections had very mature PLCs because the SPL had a year to lead. I learned through our own troop that the SPL needs about four months just to get his feet under him. That only gave us about 2 months with a productive SPL. Why not eight months instead. It made complete since to me. I proposed the idea to our PLC. I'm a pretty good sales man and can usually get what I want. But after laughing, they put the brakes on that idea. OK, another time. I spoiled my PLCs. Our PLCs averaged over 50 PLC meetings every six months, so I always had special treats waiting for them like cokes, chips, pizza. I respected their hard work, and they respected me by giving their best. If I look back at my scoutmastering experience as successful, it was only because of luck. I tripped over most of our good ideas. Barry

This discussion went so far off in the weeds that I'm not even going to look for the ball. Trust Game? Patrol Method is the trust game. It is the game for the purpose. Adults don't see it so much today because they don't allow the scouts to push it to the stress of scouts challenging each other. The four stages of team building are forming, storming, norming and performing. Forming is easy, throw a bunch of guys into a patrol. Storming is simply the stage where the members fall into agreement for their responsibility to the team for reaching the goal, or goals within the expected time fame. The goals should be strenuous enough to force members to understand the need of each member taking a responsibility. Done correctly, the scouts find themselves challenged with using the Scout Law because in most cases, pride has to take a back seat to accept the responsibility. Replacing pride with humility can be a struggle. Nothing beat "expectations" and "time" for pushing scouts outside of their behavior comfort zone. Expectations and time became my favorite goto techniques to push scouts in growth. It was how learned. One example is in the old days, patrols were used to daily inspections. Those inspections require continued camp custodial actions. All tents are neat and tidy with all sleeping bags rolled and clothing put away in packs. Does anybody realize the challenge of that one task for this age group. We used to have reveille, which was early enough to make getting out of the sleeping bag hard, but a must because that meant the patrol had a very limited time to their cooking, kp, and tidy up each tent campsite required a full effort for the team. Failure meant a bad inspection score and maybe even dirty dishes for lunch. I didn't realize it then, but scouting taught me how to be organized, or suffer from pressure from my patrol mates. My kids laugh that I have a reason for when and how I do the simplist tasks just to be more efficient. I like a discussion of ideas to amplify growth, but I think we need to keep it within of the normal troop program. Competition and building team trust are more difficult today because the culture today identifies stress of growth as a form of abuse. So, making this stuff fun is even more of a requirement. But it's worth the discovery. Barry

We did pot luck at both B&G and COHs. No cost with good food. The troop has done pizza for COHs and that went very well as well. If there is some cost, but not a lot, a donation jar tends to bring a balance. Barry