Eagledad

I'ts a whole new program leaving National with a lot to sort out. I know a lot of folks are relying on the idea that the program is the same, just with girls. But the question of "Demonstrate vs. Show" discussion shows that the program is taking a long step back to the basics. And I can't believe that the answers these new leaders come up with will be the same as the old boy scout program. I learned something lately, a lot of experienced males are not going back the program because it is simply not the Boy Scout program. My neighbor is an example. He is an Eagle and was planning to get evolved again with his grand kids, but neither he or his Eagle son see the new program as the program the program they earned their Eagle. It's not about girls to them, it's about the program they know. Their program is gone. Kind of like a favorite store getting bought out and changing names. I've heard several adults saying basically the same thing. I think the program is going to change a lot to meet the expectations of the new generation. National is going to have to rebrand itself. But that might be a good thing for them. Dump a lot of the traditional program baggage. Barry

Yes, I kind of read your question as "how can we work together with the other adult?" This is easy stuff, how are you going to get through the hard stuff? Whose the gatekeeper of the centralized method? Your a team. The team selects a designated leader. The leader understands the goal and serves the team toward that goal. Barry

While working my way through Engineering in the 70's, I worked as an aircraft mechanic using FAA Manuals that were written for the general aircraft built in the 40's. Large organizations are always lagging in updates to current knowledge. I remember as a scout being terrified of getting a snake bite; not because of the poison, but because of the BSA procedure to cut a slit in the bitten area for someone to suck the poison (and blood) out of the wound. The procedure has been updated since then. Thank goodness for the internet. Barry

In the big picture, what should the scout learn from the lesson? Barry

It will take some time. Everyone thought bringing mom leaders into troops in 1990 wouldn't have much effect. They couldn't have seen how much the flood of inexperienced adults would effect the traditional program. National ended up starting over and replacing all the training courses in 2000. I see a new flood of inexperienced adults again with this membership change, so I'm sure there will be some growing pains. And like the last influx, National will be right on top smoothing the path for the volunteers. And now like then, the forum will be the first to discuss these things. Barry

It’s an honor to be invited. If your family only sees it as just more work, you’re not ready yet. Give it another year so husband and son can learn what it’s all about. Then they can make an informed decision. Barry

You answered your question. Girls learn differently than boys, so the patrol method will have to compromise to have any growth. Barry

Well, maybe the problem is just the the winning and losing. I think this is the issue that will make the transition difficult, especially for the boys. Seems a lot of adults want to justify girls belonging in the program by showing they are the winners. Yes, that makes sense of course, but this got started on your defending the one size fits all basis that boys and girls do learn the same. You are going to have to rethink your wording for those of us who believe girls and boys are different and that one size certainly does not fit all. As for data, there is plenty of data for the last 50 years that draws conclusions from other mixed or single gender programs. For those of us with experience, you are going to have to rethink an approach in the discussion that is less argumentative or divisive because you certainly aren't going to experience. I have enough experience to explain how this program promotes growth in young men. I happen to believe that girls will hurt that growth. You don' that experience, so I believe the best you can say is that the program is providing you an opportunity for your daughters that you plan to take advantage of you will see how that plays out. I certainly can't argue, in fact I agree. Sameness of requirements doesn't mean the sameness of teaching methods. At least to those of us who experiences the difference between boys and girls. How did the leader in the example present the activity to the point of girls mopping up the boys? We don't know, but I sure don't see a willingness in the leaders words to do the activity different next time. In fact, the words imply the girls are just better than boys. This is the problem the BSA is going to have to deal with on the whole. Are girls really better? If so, now what? Even when adults say that girls and boys are equal, they can't wait (like in the camporee) to point out when girls are "more" equal. One poster said we need to be cheering the girls on, but how do we do that without turning the boys into losers? Did the girls have to take top honors at the camporee to be winners? But let me just say that I think we are speaking from to different places, the Troop program is completely different in that to a large degree from the pack program. The individual scout in the troop sets the teaching style because they are learning from their decisions. The adults are supposed to step back and allow that style of learning play out on the scouts terms. My concern isn't that the individual scout can't learn from their decisions when the adults inject enough interference to prevent the scout from learning. Seems reasonable, yet we have the adults at the camporee getting in the way. The patrol environment is very important to growth, but will be neglected in my opinion because of the one size fits all mentality. Right now the scouts aren't mixed, but, they will eventually be mixed because there are a lot of adults who think the learning styles are equal. Ops, here we go again, round and round. LOL Barry

Depends on how you want to express your method for success. If you want to continue local success, then why would you change? If you want consider the best method when comparing local success to national experience, you have to consider the options with humility. But, I certainly would not change local success for something less just because it works for a large population. How the data is collected is also part of the complexities. I can give several examples of program changes from National they said are supported by research. Yet, many scouters in the field say the data doesn't fit. I'm not going to get into who or why their changes don't perform as well, I'm only saying that one shouldn't shutdown success simply to appease advertised data. Do what works best. I have a question: Your basically claiming that girls and boy are the same. There is one scout leader on this forum who is claiming her girls mop up the boys in their activities. How do you take that? Barry

You also suggested not using experience to base performances. Experience is how I achieve maximum performance. There are many reasons for making choices to inject a desired approach for desired performance. The Cub age program is different from the Troop age program because the troop age youth are expected to learn habits of character by their independent decisions. I have different expectations for each group and use different approaches to achieve the results. But, I learned those approaches over the years of what works, and what works better. For Troop age youth, my experience is girls are better detail thinkers where boys are more visionary and creative. Girls will perform detailed task, like planning, faster and more efficiently than boys. Boys, on the other hand, come up with bigger ideas and creativity of reaching goals. The two together can make a great team if they work together. But Patrol method is good tool for teaching methods of working details. If girls always work the details and boys always make up the activities, they both suffer from not practicing the skills they need to learn. For the perceptive adult leaders, they force the boys to take on their share of working the fine details, but then that requires more adult interjection, which risk loosing the growth learned from making independent decisions. It's very tricky and complicated and just about impossible for low experienced leaders, which is most of the BSA. Barry

I have three grandkids under the age of 3 now. My daughter said the other day that she now sees that even at a few months age, girls are different than boys. Experience behooves making changes to find maximum performance. Logic dictates doing what works. My experience over the years is the same as Terasec's. Of course there are always exceptions to the rule, but instinct drives consistent human behavior. Barry

There weren't as many details given as you imply and many of the details were conflicting by the different ways they were presented. National rammed it down the throat of the units as a whole because it came fast with little information preceding the changes. There certainly was no consensus from the unit level members because they weren't asked. At least not until after it was obvious the planned change was coming. It's not the first time National has made major changes in the program without much input from the membership, it's really kind of normal. But the impact of this change is so big and controversial that it highlights National's typical way of doing business. Barry

When I was active, camporees were planned by the next Troop in line. It wasn't really even voluntary, if a troop refused district, districts wrath would bare down. I can't say if separate Camporees would be ideal, but just getting the resource to plan and run two separate events even side by side would be a huge challenge. Barry

The problem is the culture. We used to go to a camp in Colorado every other years because it had a "Boy Run" culture and fit our troop program better. The summer temperature highs were in the 70s compared to the Oklahoma 100s, but I'm trying to make a point here. Units can have a "boy run" culture, but leaders of those units will explain that planning is easier for their program if they just skip District and Council activities that don't fit their program concept. The truth is that units in general mimic the basic perception district has of its scouts. It takes a strong group of adult leaders to build a program with a different preception. I have often said here that the best way to make changes at a district level is through training. If all the course slipped in the term "Youth Run" with a very basic explanation of "scouts making independent or critical decisions for their activities, "Trained" leaders would start shifting their efforts toward that vision. Not because they agree or disagree with the concept, but because the concept is how they were trained. Add a few Patrol Method clinics to help the adults understand how to build toward such program, all the units of the district would resemble the District "youth run" concept. The culture would build and reinforce the concepts through District activities like Camporee, Weboree, Cub Camps and so forth. Barry

I disagree that it isn't National. Leadership actions model the action of the members of the program. While maintaining quality is challenging across 50 states, National hasn't shown itself as capable. Most of the changes coming from National in the last few years are abrupt and with little warning to the units and certainly without opinion from the volunteers. The information of the changes and their implementation are chaotic and inconsistent. The only reason the units can function as well as they do at a National level is because there is enough old policies and procedures to hold through the chaos. The girls program has been rammed down the throat of the units along with confusing information and a bit of hostile marketing, which has lead to more of a us vs them introduction than a lets work together for a common goal. The BSA is in trouble and adding girls is probably the best path to survival. But it should have been a team effort from the units to National. Instead National kept everything close and secrete. Nobody knew what was going on until it happened. I have been consistent in saying that the boys will get the short end of the stick because the focus on the girls will be pushed on them off to the side. That is what fueled this discussion the last couple of days. Is that really fair. The Boy Scouts of America has been the Boy Scouts of America for over 100 years, and now the adults are praising the girls as the bigger better part of the program. Oh, they don't necessarily mean to be so blunt, but there are several very motivated and passionate groups of adults that don't mind the introduction being a bit of a "In Your Face" to the traditionalist scouters, and even the so called sexist of the BSA. So how are we going to stop this growing Us vs. them attitude? Don't you find it interesting that we are having long discussions of using the right terminology of what to call the scouts, but nothing explaining that bragging about their girls mopping up the boys in their activities may not be taken well at this time of the scouting program. I know, they can't help themselves, but hopefully they get the terminology right. Different adults have different reasons for wanting girls in the program, and they aren't doing a good job of hiding their excitement about it. If the program is to survive this, National has to come clean with the when, why, how, and who of the plan for the future. They need a by-in from the units so everyone is working toward the same goal, for the same reasons. The units need to know where they stand with the future and that is part of the problem. It's all a mystery. My blame starts with National. Barry

Even after you mentioned adults cheating, I still didn’t consider it. I’m embarrassed because I was blaming the unit leaders, but now I’m wondering it they were coaxed into going. I agree Cocomax should meet with the Key3, but I’m suspicious they are the problem. If it’s the key3, then it’s the Council. Shesh Barry

Really? Why? Your post doesn't make sense because I've seen nothing in this discussion to support your thought. If anything, you can expect praise and pats on the back. The discussion isn't about camporees, or the reactions (well mostly) to the girls performance, or even fairness. It's about adult leaders with social agenda's to prove a point. Let me give you a hint: I have found that in most cases, true boy run patrol method troops are not typically the best uniformed troops because the adults aren't intruding on the scouts independence to make right or wrong decisions. Maybe brand new youth run troops are an exception, but see my point. Now, I'm not saying to encourage your scouts dress slobs, I'm saying that the scouts actions well tell who makes the decisions of the program where character is developed by the scouts decisioins. I have a question that I really don't know the answer: Most new troops are challenged just to get the first couple camping trips under their feet. What is so attractive about camporee's where the leaders are giving up value time to get the unit up to speed? And in front of everyone. It had to be pre-planned on somebodies schedule weeks or months ago. What is the thinking? Barry

Be the staffer the young scouts think you are. The youth staff are larger than life to young scouts. They will leave camp wanting to be like "that" staffer. I told my scouts who staffed camp to not burst that bubble. Don't swear, don't mock. Be bold, daring, a friend, and be fair. Be different, but be yourself. You can't fake being cool. You gotta be your own cool. I know of scouts who learned to play the guitar because they were inspired by a staffer. Another learn to tell jokes and be quick with cleaver quotes to help people feel better, just because of a camp staffer. Quiet staffers who model confidence inspire shy want-a-be leaders. The waterfront is a serious area, show that seriousness with humanity, and humility. You are likely creating a vision for young scouts to work toward. Be the staffer the young scouts think you are. Barry

It's kind of funny, there is a whole another discussion about how adults are trying to get their scouts to the "Scout" rank. Even one adult talking about the struggle of her scouts just focusing on a patrol name. You know, normal scout and new unit stuff. So, you define the only choices. I am skeptical because not only do I not believe a typical NEW unit can get to speed in one month under normal circumstance, I don't believe the scouts would set that as a goal. It's not like my emotions are in conflict and I have to lash out yelling cheating cheating to feel better. I have worked with dozens of units to help them start and come up to speed. It's all they can do to just function as a troop on their first campout. I miss the old qwazse that spoke with maturity and wisdom. He inspired me. Barry

I am quite sure we are going hear many many underdog stories for a while. Remind me, why are girls the underdogs? Barry

My integrity. There is no mention of cheating in my post, only yours. Barry

And what about stoves. Scouts need to practice making good decisions when the are surrounded by temptations. First step is educate them to the risks. Some individuals will still make bad choices if given the room, but usually the swaying by the other members of the patrol prevail. Barry

Oh for Pete sakes. I shouldn't even respond to the derogatory implication. It's beneath you. Barry

Our scouts didn't the camp on fire, but they were just as careless. I asked, with a great deal of scowl, that the PLC handle fire safety at a troop level. Looking back, I would have done more including the PLC arranging all the patrols visit a hospital where doctors and nurses can impress the long term seriousness of injuries caused by fire. My hopes are that a few pictures with explanations from these professionals would impress the seriousness of fire safety. Until a person has had personal experience with grass fires, it's hard to grasp the speed they travel. More fire fighters are killed working grass fires than any other type of fire. Barry

Working with youth for so many years has shown me that the wiring and makeup of males and females are very different and require different styles of activities to get the most growth. Folks today for various reasons are voluntarily naive to the mental and physical complexities of males and females. They selfishly and willingly sacrifice the positive growth of one gender to advance the growth of the other. In the case of scouting, and at least until puberty, girls have the advantage with their mental processing in a patrol method environment. The competitive nature of adults will used that advantage for their personal agenda. It's complex, but I feel the boys, and Patrol Method, are getting the short end of it. I know you aren't worried about girl troops and I agree that boys have a much better chance in single gender patrol. But there is a general gender cultural attitude of us vs them in this country at the moment. March is national Women's history month. Next month is, .....well it's not Men's History month. Just look at some of the responses in this discussion, some here think I'm putting the girls down. I don't have a problem with girls, I have a problem with adults. Ironically, mixing the genders, while sacrificing boy growth, would force a more united adult attitude of fairness into the overall program. Yes, boys will never have the opportunities their dads had in the BSA, but at least the adults would be forced to work for the equal goals. Unfortunately, most adults today use mediocrity as the tool to fairness, which will dilute the powerful influence of the Patrol method. The BSA has given up it's structure to build good men of character and leaders of integrity. I now hope they can at least get something similar to Cambridgeskip's program in England. I believe that program gives the most hope for boy growth. Barry