Eagledad

I can't imagine anyone learning the basic concepts of patrol method (especially "servant" Leadership) from WB. I have always felt patrols are only used in the course to divide participants into smaller groups, not to give participants a realistic experience of patrol method. Barry

Interestingly, I felt I got more out of the new WB than the old because the skills side and the patrol experience wasn't new to me in the old course. I will admit that I learned a lot of new skills for teaching, which is what the course was intended. The new course fit more into my adult life of being a team leader. What I learned in the new course has helped me immensely in my job as a manager. I have to plan 10 years ahead on projects and organize teams for those projects. The problem with the new course is that the staffs don't know what the participants are supposed to get out of the course, so they just follow their parts as presented in the syllabus like actors following a script. But one size fits all doesn't work for personalizing the participants experience. Easy tickets huh! I had not thought of them that way. As the ASM of Troop Guides, I approved all the tickets and I took that job very seriously. And I coached the TGs to take that responsibility seriously as well. Every night we discussed each participants unit positions and their future plans in scouting, then we talked about how to enhance their scouting career with ticket items. In most cases, I found the participants made their tickets harder than required, and more often not applicable to their responsibilities. So, we coached them to first see the purpose of their ticket and then write it to be more specific. I also asked them to sit down with their unit leaders to discuss the tickets as well. I found that the participants finished the course with more purpose and more confidence than when they started the course. They were excited to go back to their units. Done correctly, writing the ticket made scouting more fun for them. If we could go way way back in the forum archives before the new WB course was introduced, we had a few discussions where we talked about the ideal WB syllabus for that generation of leaders. That was at a time (much like now) where the troop program was suffering from an imbalance of inexperienced adult leaders. Ironically the new course is very close to what I feel was ideal syllabus at the time. The present course, or at least the new course then, taught how to first figure out a vision or purpose to all the goals and tasks of the unit. Then, how to build a team to accomplish those goals. The district used to send me out to problem units to help get them on their feet. Understanding the unit goals and then building the team was how I got them going forward again. So, I really like todays WB course in that since. I still think that is the right objectives for scouters coming into the program because it focuses on the adult side of running a performing unit. Where WB has gotten off course is in trying to make it the mountain top experience to match the reputation of the previous course. The previous course was designed to take the best dedicated leaders and make them even better. They were truly the best of the best. Problem was it started loosing it's prestige when some scouters used WB to feed their egos. Originally the WB graduates were to humble themselves in helping other scouters become better leaders. But I think the course started recruiting too many scouters to fill slots instead of picking just those who showed the right qualities. That's where it lost it's way .That is the kool aid we are fighting now. I've written and introduced several courses in scouting, including a council level JLT, but I'm not sure how to fix this one. On one hand, it doesn't need to be near a long as it is for the objectives it's trying to teach. On the other hand, I believe the Ticket Items are the meat of the course and they require the staff and participants some time to evaluate the participants future in the BSA. And, the course length also separates out the more dedicated volunteers who plan to stay in awhile. The real problem with courses of complicated objectives is writing a syllabus that anyone could organize, run, and achieve the same goals. Believe it or not, the old WB course is a lot more simple because the objective was only to pass along advanced teaching skills. I learned over the years that writing a syllabus that scouters all across the county could use productively is extremely challenging. Now with the induction of more inexperienced adult volunteers, training is going to have to change to fit their needs. It will require some real thinking. I'm not sure National is up to it. Barry

How the scouts choose to go depends on the weight of responsibility. I have watched our scouts add and eliminate positions as the leadership evaulate the work of the group versus production of each position. Scouts hate work, so given the freedom, they will find the shortest path to everything. I knew our PLC figured it out when they added an ASPL for the new scout class that doubled in size, but eliminated that position next year with a normal size class. As qwazse points out, an adult taking on the SPL, or any POR, hides the weight of the responsibility from the team. And, I should have added, that any scout can carry out the responsibilities explained in the PL and SPL handbooks. It's not about the patch, it's about getting the team functioning efficiently. Honestly, my recommendation for a new young troop using the SPL and PL Handbook is more to shape the adults minds to a "patrol-method troop" program because they would otherwise force their own vision on the scouts. Usually the adults vision forces scouts to wait and follow the adults when it should be the other way around. As long as the adults are using the same guides as the scouts, everyone's energies are going in the same direction even if nobody is really sure of the goals yet. If somebody has a question, everybody pulls out the same handbook to check. Barry

All really good posts. I've helped several new troops get started and each one is a little different because of the skill levels of the adults. Remember, in a scout run program, adults have to learn more faster than the scouts if they don't want to get in the scouts way. The challenge is to give the scouts as much decision making responsibility as their maturity can handle without taking the fun out of their program. In most cases, the adults don't respect the abilities of the scouts, and the scouts don't understand the purpose of the program. I'm a big believer in the SPL and PL Handbooks because they help the adults and scouts learn the program together. Scouts learn to trust the adults when they feel they are a team. By the way, the troop may not be ready for the SPL yet, but the SPL Manual has a lot of guidance for a new troop trying to build inertia. Where adults have to feel their way is measuring the maturity of the scouts. 10 to 13 year old boys (not sure about girls) would much rather play Capture the Flag than plan the meals for the next camp out. Of course part of making decisions is doing the boring stuff, but it wears on the younger scouts quickly. I usually recommend just 3 or 4 months for the first couple of election cycles to prevent burnout. I assure you the an 11 year old doesn't mind handing over the responsibilities if they are truly making decisions for the group because it's hard, very hard. As the patrol and/or troop starts to get the swing of things, the election cycle should be extended to the normal program standard. As for the adults, the biggest challenge is allowing the scouts the room to make decisions, while giving just enough assistance to help keep the program moving forward. Faltering is when the scouts aren't having fun. There are no easy examples to know when the adults need to apply some subtle assitance to help the scouts. But, I recommend the SM monitor the young scouts enough to know when the fun is over. Scouts should look forward to coming back next week. If they don't, then likely they have max out and need some help. That being said, the biggest problem with new leaders is adult intrusion on the boys (umm, youth) program. For example, there is never a time an adult should stand in front of the group with the youth leaders unless the youth leader gave them permission for a temporary moment on the floor. When a scout stumbles, their first reaction is turn to the adult for help. And the adults reaction is to step in. When adults are out-of-site, they are out of mind. Scouts need to build the confidence of pushing on to the next item and go to the adult later for guidance when they have a moment. Adults should stand in the back behind all the scouts. I also suggest that adults never put the scout sign up first. It's the scouts troop or patrol, the youth leaders should always put the sign up first to control the group. If the adult needs the groups attention, they ask the youth leader of the group to get control for them, then patiently wait until the group is down to a quiet roar. The adult thanks the youth LEADER and continues. I've even done this during Scoutmaster minutes. By the way, when scouts felt the need to talk to their buggy during a SM minute, I took that as a cue that I need to improve my presentation. Adults should talk as little as possible. Words from adults are sleeping pills for young scouts. I have seen adults go on and on for 20 minutes just doing announcements. For some reason Scoutmasters need to feel important by talking and talking and talking (Practice making Scoutmaster minutes only 2 minutes long). I found that scouts don't start respecting the adult leadership until they have a need to ask the adults for help. Standing there watching chaos creep into the activities requires adults biting down on a stick, or a bullet for the squeamish, but scouts don't like chaos anymore than the adults. When the scouts come to the SM for help, they really want it and are ready to listen. As I said, how much guidance adults need to give to scouts of new program is challenging, but scouts do learn fast. So, adults need to learn the skill of backing up and giving more of the decision making to the scouts as they gain experience and confidence. Even 11 year olds with three months experience are more mature and need more room. It's much better for adults to let the scouts go to far to find their limits than to assume the limits and hold them back. I often say I made more mistakes as a scout leader than I did right, but scouts are amazing if you let them go to their full abilities. As for SPL or not, I agree with letting the scouts fill responsibilities as is needed. But, the handbooks suggest SPLs, so there is a balance of doing what is needed along with following a plan. The scouts will figure it out as they go back and forth. Barry

This is really the the best response to many of our discussions. Barry

Yes, I do this every day at work because we have a lot of high educated people over 50 years in age. And it got me through my scouting years. But there will always be “that” one person who thinks they are always right. That’s the one who you develop good leadership skills. Barry

I blame the staff, specifically the Troop Guide ASM and the Troop Guides. The course provides enough time for the Troop Guides to evaluate the participants so they can help them prepare for their assigned responsibility in the unit or district. The Troop Guides are supposed to work with the Troop Guide ASM on the best way to help each participant develop Ticket Items that would give them the most tools and experience for their unit responsibilities. With the right team helping the participant focus on more specific experiences, the Ticket Items are generally less work for more skills development because they are written specifically to the needs of the participant. Sadly the Troop Guide and Troop Guide ASM staff positions are generally handed out to adults next in line for WB Staff, not because they have the experiences or skills to truly develop the participants. Barry

Years ago Matt and I agreed in a discussion that Scoutmastering is 50% with the scouts, and 50% with the adults. If the Scoutmaster wants to keep these kinds of struggles to a minimum (minimum can still be a lot), they may eventually have to assume the bad guy role of gatekeeper for the program values and process. Sometimes they have to be authoritative (flex their position of leadership muscle) to force a specific direction. Right or wrong, the program has to move forward. Of course the SM may find their decision was wrong down the road. They take comfort in knowing that humility is the fertile ground where character grows. Barry

If not experienced scouters, than who? I seem to remember several posts on this forum asking the experienced scouters to stay on with the new program so as to help get these new units up to speed. Girls units are not under a microscope of the experienced scouters. It just appears that way because cheerleaders of the new program are over-promoting the girls to the point that experienced scouters are just expressing concern of the qualities of the whole program for all the scouts. The cheating adults at the camporee was just one nauseating example of adults going too far. You think the comments of that situation are unfair? Actually you would find hundreds of post on this forum of group advancement concerns for the last 30 years. Ever since National started pushing crossovers by dens instead of individually by age, experienced scouters have observed a shift toward group advancements. And why not, it's more efficient in keeping the promise of "1st Class in the 1st year" found in each Scout Handbook. The concerned now, as it has always been, has nothing to do with girls, but more of protecting, or promoting, the traditional program where individual scouts are encouraged to make independent decisions without influence from adult direction. Group advancement is also a typical approach for adults without any other scouting experience because they don't have the wisdom to understand the greater value of developing character from independent decisions. I will include professional scouters and volunteer elite scouters in that group. For all those adults, promotion of stature is easier and faster to measure the adult performance of their program as a whole. Egos. We will assume the best of adult intentions in that they are not cheer-leading groups of girls to be the first female Eagle in their area. Well maybe not the adults who cheated the boys at the camporee. I'm sure that is an unusual situation. As for minimum rank by summer camp, not a big deal really for most of us. We all want scouts confident enough to camp for a week in the wilderness. But at some point the adults should hand it off decision making to the scouts. When do you feel comfortable that they can do that? Barry

We had an Eagle scout who in a six months time frame was our SPL, a Venturing Crew Leader, planned a high adventure trip for a Troop Crew to Montana, and was very active member in OA. Remarkable doesn't even describe this kid. He also got a high enough score on the SAT to earn a full scholarship to MIT, THAT SAME YEAR. I agree with Qwazse that the BSA undersells opportunities within the program for it's members. I grew to be disappointed with adult leaders because while they think they are pushing a scout beyond his goals to reach Eagle, they are actually limiting or holding the scout back by not marketing all the other opportunities. The program provides scouts with many opportunities where they expand their knowledge, experience and joy of adventure. In fact, there are so many opportunities that I doubt more than a handful of leaders even know them all. Our council developed the Junior Leadership Training so that a scout who had the passion to teach could have experiences all they way to NYLT course director while still registered as a scout (Venturing). I know it can be done in any council, but our council actually showed the scouts how to reach that goal. Before 1980, less than 3 percent of scouts earned the Eagle. Which coincides with the proposed number by experts of natural leaders in the population. But, there are so many opportunities for scouts who, while may not be interested in leadership, can still reach mountain top goals. Thanks Mrkstvns Barry

Well, no official instructions, so it's how you want to approach it. We cook the meat, then set it off to the side and cook the box of macaroni & cheese. When the mac & cheese is ready, we throw the meat and other fixings (sometimes a little water or tomato juice to then it out) into the pot. Seems to work for hungry college students and scouts. Now, my personal favorite is adding a can of corn, but I'm in the minority there. Barry

Ever do Chili Mac & Cheese? Pretty good. Created it during lean times in college. Barry

Exactly. And if the leaders in either organization approach the problem by not talking about the difference, than we in our ignorance can't define the differences clearly to the public or potential new members. The forum is in a weird place right now on deciding what should be discussed, or not discussed. But internet forums are today's go-to resource for clarity. We need to get smarter by asking the right questions. What should be discussed (or not) should be defined by rules of civility and courteousness. Then we don't have to worry about stepping on toes. Rather, we become educated teachers. Barry

Check you local arts and crafts store. We made bolo ties for the adults and scouts in our troop with very nice woven leather and end pieces intended just for bolo ties. They have a lot of choices for materials. Barry

OK, I apologized, but you want to rub sand in the wound. Shesh. I could go on, but someone has to be scout-like here. Scout-like we encouraged in the traditional program. Barry

Yes, but it's not an overly used term, and in this day and age of A LOT of cultural moments, it's easy to misinterupret words with no face. Barry

Ah, thanks. I guess there is more terminology confusion than I realized. My apologies. Barry

What movement? Shesh, qwazse has excellent advice. Barry

Then you haven't been confronted, yet. Barry

For me it's just changing old habits. Give it time. But your post reminded me of a concern I had the other day; is it inappropriate to call the scouts in a totally girl patrol "Girls"? "Hi girls, I need to ask as question." I never worried about boys in a patrol, "Boys", but there seems to be some sensitivity with the girls side. There were even times I would refer to a group of men, or mixed group of male adult leaders and boys, as boys. "The boys and I are meeting over by the fire". But I'm guessing that is also inappropriate with a totally female group of leaders. Trying to be respectful of feelings is getting really hard. Barry

Thank you. Your experience was impressive and expected. I am a firm believer that even in the faceless world of forums, posters can set the tone (role model so to speak) of a discussion with only a few words. I look forward to watching your productive discussion. Barry

Cburkhardt, since you are using a passive-aggression to promote your opinion of the new scouting program, tell us more about yourself. Your past scouting experiences and your future experience goals. Are you a father, mother, grandparent? Barry

That is much harder than it sounds and requires dedicated adults. Even harder are two dedicated CCs and SMs. Don’t just ask for volunteers, seek out talented adults and personally recruit them. Barry

One of our ASMs worked for AT&T marketing. The ASM approached the Council Field leader and told him that he would put all the pictures of scouts in the local news paper that the field leader would give him. It was a gold mine offer. The field leader and I went to the same my church and he pulled me over to explain why he refused the ASMs kind gesture. He simply didn't want the ASM to get the recognition for the idea. I guess promotions in council are very competitive, so he was willing to give up the many thousands of dollars of marketing to save his ego. I don't have much respect for BSA marketing efforts. I do believe this is where National is going, and maybe even looking forward to the direction. But I think they stumbled here, it wasn't a long range vision. They have never shown me to have visionary skills. They have been reactionary the last 20 years and this is the muddy tire rut they got stuck in. There are lot of us sitting at this campfire. Barry

Do to adult mismanagement of the course, we struggled finding youth staff in our council. A youth support staff was very important for me because I wanted scouts to see that there was always another challenging level of scouting for their career,. You know, for those Sentinel947 types. You need to go out and personally recruit your staff. You have a whole council of troops, so you know there are some very fine confident young adults who can meet your high expectations. But you have to personally dig in the weeds find them. I approached it as an honor for the candidates to apply for. I wanted scouts with the right attitude. Kind of like OA candidates in the old days. I searched for NAYLE Philmont graduates. The few we got were very good and had a great work ethic. Then I queried scoutmasters for scouts that met my qualifications. Scoutmasters like to brag about their best scouts. And, I was open to past scouts older than 18. The thing is that maybe the course doesn't have the appearance of an effort worth giving. But, if you personally present the course as honor scouts presenting the best ideas of scouting to units for raising the quality of their program, you color a vision of a noble effort for the sake of bettering the community of scouting in the council. The skills they will learn and practice will stay with them forever their to be used in college and their careers. NYLT isn't just another program for council professionals bragging rights, this an advanced training program that takes the best units have to offer and makes them better with the goal to make their units better. You really want the cream of the crop because their example during the course will motivate some of the course participants to take that next challenge of being a future staff member. Eventually, you will have more than enough recruits for your honor course. If you get the word out that you are interviewing for qualified scouts and ask for just a very basic resume, I think you will get a highly motivated youth staff. And, don't kick out that husband/wife team, we can always use a great support staff/mentors. Barry