Eagledad

I’m not trying to be condescending here, and I certainly don’t want to be part of what I think is but if a silly discussion. But your posting is more of a baby sitters mentality to you scouts. Our scouts have two rules that must be strictly followed at camp; always have a buddy and always tell your Patrol Leader where you are at. If the adults feel the need to watch their scouts to prevent them from harm, the scouts will never trust the adults are giving them the independence to fail. Trust is key to patrol method success. Let the scouts pick the shirts. Barry

I assume the bunching down makes a tight seal on the boot. Dusty trails is a real pain at summer camps and can get uncomfortable as it seeps into the shoes. I never had this problem at camp or on the trail. Also, long socks are best for bunching and they come in handy pulled up on the cool mornings, especially backpacking. I don’t know if they still sell them, but BSA sold some great long hiking smartwool brand socks in uniform colors. A little pricey, but great for scouting activities that requires full uniform like adult leader training. I love them for Woodbadge. Barry

Hiking boots and smartwool socks. I’ve tried running shoes like most wear during camp but my feel are sore by the end of the day. The boots provide good support and the sock breath well keeping the feet dry. Also bunching the socks down on the boot keeps the dirt and chiggers away from the feet and ankles. I learned this from a forum member 22 years ago. Barry

As an aside, I ran into our troop SPL last week wearing the same troop t-shirt we designed in 1994. It was nice to see some things never change. The design is on a gray shirt, by the way. Barry

Troops that fail to keep older scouts typically and usually have a program that hasn’t matured past a first class advancement type of program. Older scouts are young adults requiring adult mental and physical activities that stimulate growth. Where troops fail is developing a program where the scouts spend the first two or three years advancing, then the next two or three years teaching younger scouts advancement. So, the adults are expecting the young adults to repeat their scouting experience all over again. Adults (older scouts) need adult mental and physical activities and troops suffer from not giving them the responsibility for the troop program. Build a program designed to put the adults out of business. Build a program that if the adults didn’t show up, nothing would change. Troop quality should be measured by the older scout program because they are the role models and set the program tone and maturity. But most troops today measure quality from their advancement performance. That is typically a sign of immature adult leaders. Also frustrating is adult misunderstandings of older scouts: Older scouts don’t like working with younger scouts. FALSE. Older scouts thrive on responsibility, especially guiding younger scouts. They don’t like classroom teaching or repeating simplistic first class program activities. Older scouts only want adventure. FALSE. Adventure activities like anything else get old and boring. Young adults need problems that require creative solutions, like the problems that troops typically run into. Older scouts should always be the first go-to resource for troop problems. Older scouts would rather hang with young adults their own age. Of course we all enjoy fellowship with folks of common interests, but that doesn’t override the pleasure of responsibility. They love responsibility. Give older scouts the reins of the program and they will figure out when they need a break with their peers. I learned from my experience of helping troops improve their older scout program that they tend to resist their program needing changes. In general, they believe the scouts are the problem, not the program. So, I learned to suggest program ideas instead: More adventure in the troop program. More adventure allows older scouts more creativity in planning and executing the activities. It also gets away from gets away from the stale first class program. Only the SM at PLC meetings and even just for a few minutes. To build a program that doesn’t need adults, the scouts need experience of running a program without adults. The PLC meetings are a perfect practice. Oops, I’ve spoke too long. Mrs. Barry says I gotta sign off. Hope this helps. Barry

The posters here are giving the GSUSA too much credit. A mentor of mine had been the equivalent of the Council SE for several years of in her GSUSA career. She quit because leadership progressively changed. She explained that when these leaders are confronted with difficult situations, they tend to be reactionary. This was certainly the case when my wife advised our area leader of a difficult situation with one of her troops families. The nonsensical reaction is the reason our family quit GSUSA. Dont expect reasonable decisions from the GSUSA. Nor the BSA. Barry

The uniform symbolizes a uniform heart and mind. Uniformity symbolizes the whole of the group working in unison for a common goal. Uniformity also requires individuality of each member for the common whole to reach the goal. Like the complicated workings of a Swiss watch, each piece is different to the other pieces, yet the failure of a single piece stops the process of the whole. I tell my scouts the uniform is important because everyone becomes equal to the whole of the patrol. The poor scout is equal to the rich scout. The more educated are the same as the less educated. The scout with learning disabilities is equal in uniform with the witty patrol mate. We are equal in uniform. Yet, the uniform also gives each scout their own identity. A scout is identified by their patrol and troop. Their experience is evident by their rank and position of responsibility. The uniform identifies Arrowmen and other respected honors. I can walk up to any uniformed scout and request specific aid simply by looking at the individuality of the the scouts uniform. Each individuality of the patrol is a working piece of the patrol whole. The uniform is more than a shell of the individual, it’s also a state of mind. Uniformity of the whole is dependent on each member of the team filling a need to reach the unified goal. The more uniform the team, the more efficient their process and reaching the unified objectives. I see this efficient uniformity in high adventure crews at the end of a trek. The strenuous requirements of the trek mold the crew to become so uniform in mind by the end of their trek, they don’t even need to communicate with each other in breaking camp and hiking the trail. It’s beautiful to watch. We also see something like this in our patrols at the end of summer camp. But, I’ve never seen a more uniform patrol than the one patrol I saw at Philmont. These scouts wore the full uniform sharply during their whole trek. When ever we crossed paths with that crew, they were marching, singing and chanting in uniform stride. It was the ultimate in a uniform heart and mind. When one member made a decision, each individual reacted without question in unison to compliment the single action. That was 20 years ago and I know their scoutmaster still smiles. But one doesn’t have to dress in uniform to be uniform. The goal of patrol method is to develop a uniform heart and mind. Bringing uniformity to a uniformed mind is as easy as serving others. When we think about it, serving others is a desire of bringing uniformity into a relationship. We can see the desire of developing a uniform heart when the patrol leader serves the patrol in guiding a path to the unified goal. But there is just as much uniformity required, if not more, in the desire of uniformity by serving the patrol leader and other patrol members. So, if serving others is a desire of bringing uniformity to the group, imagine the impact when serving the community through service projects. Many adults see service projects as a requirement to sign off, but the selfless desire to serve builds a unified heart with community. That is why the “Citizen” Aim is so important. The uniform should also reflect the heart and mind of the scout who wears it. I know this to be true because I could often tell when a scout was in a personal struggle at home (divorce) just by the way they wore their uniform, or rather, the unconventional way they wore the uniform. If a the SM wants a true measure of the heart of the troop toward the program, they only need to observe them in “THEIR” decision of wearing the uniform. I hear it often that the uniform brings pride into the scout. Ibelieve the opposite, the uniform reflects the scout’s pride of being a scout. What about those looking in? What uniformity do they see in the scouts? Our troop requires wearing a uniform during travel so the scouts are identified to their responsible adults. But, the true indication of uniformity in the program came when the scouts aren’t wearing a uniform while coming home from summer camp in Colorado. Between the week at camp and our white water rafting stop on the way home, we agreed a clean set of clothes for the long drive home would be the most comfortable. After several hours on the road, We stopped for supper at a pizza restaurant in the Texas panhandle. The adults hung out in the parking lot for a few moments to clear the minds of the long drive. When we walked in the restaurant about 10 minutes later, the SPL came over to explain that the PLC had already set the patrols away from the other restaurant patrons as well as the troop adults. The 60 or so scouts could have overwhelmed the much smaller local crowd, but they were at their best in behavior and serving. If that wasn’t enough to impress this SM, we learned later that some of the local patrons and restaurant manager picked up the tab for half of our pizza and all the drinks. The manager said the SPL took control as soon as the scouts walked in door discussed with other scouts how the they would pick tables where they wouldn’t bother anyone else. It seems that while we weren’t in uniform, the uniformity of their hearts and minds were in clear view of the locals. And the locals responded. Adults always struggle with the uniform because in general vanity clouds the mind. If they could see the uniform as a tool for developing the heart, then they can approach the challenges of the uniform from a different perspective. A perspective that will live in the scouts heart and mind for the rest of their life. Barry

That’s not confusing at all.😳 Barry

What a great question. I have not thought of them that way, but it makes sense. Trustworthy and loyal are traits of integrity. Do the rest of the points have any value without integrity? Helpful, friendly, courteous and kind are action’s of the heart. They prove the scouts actions are serving, not self-serving. Obedient, cheerful, thrifty are qualities of character strength. Brave, clean and reverence are strengths of nobility. That’s Barry’s idealistic analogy, but it wasn’t hard. Of course the scouts likely don’t care, but the three (😁), excuse me, four Aims weren’t high on their list either. Barry

Isn't civic action just actions at a larger scale? If all decisions are based from the Scout Law, then all actions are likely servant. I think what qwazse is saying (I could be wrong) is that the GSUSA shouldn't be encouraging scouts to act toward any specific (GSUSA sponsored) issue because they could have a different perspective locally. Teach the scouts to be responsible and learn all the specifics of the issue, any issue and they will make the right decision on this one. Barry

This is what we did when our troop got to about 80 scouts. A troop in our district of 120 scouts showed us the advantages of using multiple smaller 6X8 trailers. The trailers can be pulled by mini vans if need. We are a back packing troop, so we encourage the patrols to take their own gear, mostly back packs if they can. If they can't their patrol QM contacts the Troop QM to request space in the trailer. The Troop QM is trained and responsible for the trailers, including keys. We typically only need one trailer to haul gear like troop tents, patrol tubs, shovels and dutch ovens. Mostly gear the patrols don't use on the trail. The real advantage of small multiple trailers is duri ng multiple troop activities. We do a lot of high adventure, so I is nice to having multiple trailers, especially with at least one smaller trailer that minivan can pull. Barry

This is the silent motto for the BSA adult leaders. Thanks Saltface, it’s perfect. To bad the adult leading the discussion of fast-tracking girls to Eagle can’t get it. Barry

This discussion is exactly what many experienced scouters on this forum predicted would happen. The non scouting public identifies Scouting only by the Eagle. And by golly the girls parents are going to get it for them. Greenbar who? Barry

That idea has been proposed for 25 years with “all boy” Webelos. We tried something like it in our district and success at a unit level is very dependent on adult cooperation and leadership because there isn’t any high level guidelines. The units are on their own. Like the Venturing units, likely success will last for one generation of adults. Our attempt at something like this was more about helping the cub level adult burnout problem. Troop growth would be a byproduct of the cub pack success. Barry

Your right. For me the answer was letting the scouts make the wrong decision and then figuring out how to react to their decision, so that I could react better to their next wrong decision, and react even better to their next wrong decision. For us to develop the skills to guide our youth to making the right decisions, we have to allow them to make wrong decisions so we can also practice of the skills of guiding them into making right decisions. A teacher taught my wife and I that lesson when our kids were still very young. His point was that most adults know that youth need to experience their wrong decisions to develop good behavior, but they don't realize that the parents aren't just born with the skills to guide their kids to good behavior, they need to practice those skills to learn them. They need to practice the reactions for guiding their kids to changing their behavior. A good example is my oldest child got a few spankings to correct is bad decisions. My youngest never got one because our skills developed over time. That is why I taught new adult leaders in leadership courses to push their limits of allowing bad behavior. How can they guide scouts to make good decisions if they don't learn the skills of reacting to bad decisions. The best disciplined troops are the ones where scouts had the most freedom to screw up because the adults practiced and learned how to guide them to be accountable to their decisions. I was a troop leader at the same time I was a Webelos Den leader. In comparing Webelos summer camps with Troop summer camps, I found troop leaders don't yell near as much or near as loud a Webelos Den leaders when working with their scouts. Nothing special about troop leaders except that they have more practice with dealing with scouts' bad decisions. It's complex, I know. I'm not explaining it very well. But, I agree with you Parkman. Barry

By the way, trailers are easy theft targets. We've had three trailers stolen, and our CO would not let us use their insurance. Insurance companies told us that custom painting the trailer is the best way to deter theft. And while that seems to be working with our newest trailer so far, it doesn't stop them. The bright red custom painted troop trailer down the street was taken in broad daylight. However, I understand why the insurance company recommended custom painting because the SM called the police immediately after passing their trailer be pulled down the street. Barry

That says it in a nutshell. Treflienne, I look forward to watching your program. Barry

I found that the bigger the trailer, the more it drives the camping part of the troop program. If the patrols find transportation for their own gear, exactly what needs to go into the trailer. I'm not saying don't get a troop trailer, but usually it's the adults that want one to fit their program, not the patrol's program. Barry

They also don't reference the Scoutmaster Handbook, the committee handbook, the Scout Handbook, PL Handbook, SPL Handbook...... and on and on. Let's not get confused between the principles and foundation that has kept our scout program unique and exceptional for generations; and the supporting structure of process that holds it's members on a path toward a successful program. Because the program has been following the same basic plan of building character for generations, we have come to believe that it is strong as iron and will withstand the fire of ignorance. However, not too long ago a member of this forum attracted a following through his charismatic dialogues for building men from boys. He seemed at first to talked the talk of scouting's values, and yet the more he talked, the more his extreme bitter anti-scouting diatribes leached into his posts. His elegant style fooled a lot of members who almost believed he was the 2nd coming of Badon Powell himself. And yet, three troops failed under his leadership in the short time he was a member of this forum. How many dozens of boys were driven away from scouting as a result of his self-serving narcissistic ideals of turning boys into men? The ideals of scouting aren't made of iron, they are fragile and can shaped and bent to the wills of any ignorant or self-serving adult. Aims and methods are important because they are a rigid framework intended for building character. That forum member spoke many times against Vision, mission, Aims and methods because he felt they prevented adults from giving boys the total freedom of just going out in the woods and camping. He hated BSA training because the context usually ran counter to his way of raising boys. He ranted against adults coaching, mentoring , guiding and even teaching. I always wondered if he saw the irony of his anti-BSA fundamentals being the cause of his unsafe reckless approach to boys learning from their experiences, and the reason parents pulled their sons out of his troops. His example of ignoring the basic principles is the very reason to have a solid structure for holding adults with good intentions on a fixed direction. Just how does a scout become a citizen of character and a leader of integrity when adults skip the steps between the Mission and the Scout Law? Is just going camping really all an adult needs to know? We have seen in countless discussions that adults aren't very good at just letting scouts make decisions in their scouting activities. Imagine if we just let all the adults go at it any way they want like the forum member I mentioned? I have to laugh; there was another forum member years ago who was also just as narcissistic as the member above, only in the opposite direction. He would blame just about all problems discussed here to adults not following the program. And, then he would list the documents and wording to prove his point. He believed every problems was caused by not following directions. While I believe his rigidness caused him to blow a gasket and get thrown off the forum, he was right most of the time. In most of our discussions, there is guidance for the adults in most situations. Adding "Leadership" to the Aims weakens the generations old structure of the program, but the greater harm is that it shows lack of faith by the professionals who have the responsibility to guard the program. There is nobody at the helm. Barry

First time I ever had to turn my hearing aid down on a forum. Barry

I was also trained this way. In fact we were shown that the top successful Fortune 500 companies try to hire and maintain employees who believe their principles and values structure as well. One teacher said that if an employee can't state the company mission in one sentence, the company has failed somewhere in their process of hiring and training. Now, I guess Leadership and Character could be the Mission Statement, but as the Girls Scouts have learned; shallow mission statements without a simple path of process will require continued to keep up with the pop culture. Even my scouts understood the difference between the scouts roles (8 Methods) from the adult roles (3 Aims, or 3 Aims Plus). But now National has added confusion of whose responsible for leadership? The Scouts with the 8 Methods, or the Adults with the 4 Aims? Barry

I had this very experience at summer camp with the "If I were not a boy scout, a _______ I would be" skit. Well one of the characters they were going to be was a proctologist asking the scout next to him to bend over so he could poke his finger .... When I told the SPL I was offended by it, he protested and said it is very funny for people his age. So, I talked to him on man-to-man level (not SM to Scout) and said that it is his decision and that I wouldn't say anything about it again, but I was offended and I'm sure others would be offended as well. I asked him to consider how that fit in the scout oath. Then I walked off with the promise that I wouldn't criticise his decision. The scouts had a couple days before campfire to think about it. I very much wanted his decision to be based on right and wrong, not the SM telling scout what to do. I was very proud of them when they changed the proctologist to a dentist. Along with that, the whole camp gave our troop a standing ovation for the skit. It was a good day for me. Barry

I can't imagine anyone learning the basic concepts of patrol method (especially "servant" Leadership) from WB. I have always felt patrols are only used in the course to divide participants into smaller groups, not to give participants a realistic experience of patrol method. Barry

Interestingly, I felt I got more out of the new WB than the old because the skills side and the patrol experience wasn't new to me in the old course. I will admit that I learned a lot of new skills for teaching, which is what the course was intended. The new course fit more into my adult life of being a team leader. What I learned in the new course has helped me immensely in my job as a manager. I have to plan 10 years ahead on projects and organize teams for those projects. The problem with the new course is that the staffs don't know what the participants are supposed to get out of the course, so they just follow their parts as presented in the syllabus like actors following a script. But one size fits all doesn't work for personalizing the participants experience. Easy tickets huh! I had not thought of them that way. As the ASM of Troop Guides, I approved all the tickets and I took that job very seriously. And I coached the TGs to take that responsibility seriously as well. Every night we discussed each participants unit positions and their future plans in scouting, then we talked about how to enhance their scouting career with ticket items. In most cases, I found the participants made their tickets harder than required, and more often not applicable to their responsibilities. So, we coached them to first see the purpose of their ticket and then write it to be more specific. I also asked them to sit down with their unit leaders to discuss the tickets as well. I found that the participants finished the course with more purpose and more confidence than when they started the course. They were excited to go back to their units. Done correctly, writing the ticket made scouting more fun for them. If we could go way way back in the forum archives before the new WB course was introduced, we had a few discussions where we talked about the ideal WB syllabus for that generation of leaders. That was at a time (much like now) where the troop program was suffering from an imbalance of inexperienced adult leaders. Ironically the new course is very close to what I feel was ideal syllabus at the time. The present course, or at least the new course then, taught how to first figure out a vision or purpose to all the goals and tasks of the unit. Then, how to build a team to accomplish those goals. The district used to send me out to problem units to help get them on their feet. Understanding the unit goals and then building the team was how I got them going forward again. So, I really like todays WB course in that since. I still think that is the right objectives for scouters coming into the program because it focuses on the adult side of running a performing unit. Where WB has gotten off course is in trying to make it the mountain top experience to match the reputation of the previous course. The previous course was designed to take the best dedicated leaders and make them even better. They were truly the best of the best. Problem was it started loosing it's prestige when some scouters used WB to feed their egos. Originally the WB graduates were to humble themselves in helping other scouters become better leaders. But I think the course started recruiting too many scouters to fill slots instead of picking just those who showed the right qualities. That's where it lost it's way .That is the kool aid we are fighting now. I've written and introduced several courses in scouting, including a council level JLT, but I'm not sure how to fix this one. On one hand, it doesn't need to be near a long as it is for the objectives it's trying to teach. On the other hand, I believe the Ticket Items are the meat of the course and they require the staff and participants some time to evaluate the participants future in the BSA. And, the course length also separates out the more dedicated volunteers who plan to stay in awhile. The real problem with courses of complicated objectives is writing a syllabus that anyone could organize, run, and achieve the same goals. Believe it or not, the old WB course is a lot more simple because the objective was only to pass along advanced teaching skills. I learned over the years that writing a syllabus that scouters all across the county could use productively is extremely challenging. Now with the induction of more inexperienced adult volunteers, training is going to have to change to fit their needs. It will require some real thinking. I'm not sure National is up to it. Barry

How the scouts choose to go depends on the weight of responsibility. I have watched our scouts add and eliminate positions as the leadership evaulate the work of the group versus production of each position. Scouts hate work, so given the freedom, they will find the shortest path to everything. I knew our PLC figured it out when they added an ASPL for the new scout class that doubled in size, but eliminated that position next year with a normal size class. As qwazse points out, an adult taking on the SPL, or any POR, hides the weight of the responsibility from the team. And, I should have added, that any scout can carry out the responsibilities explained in the PL and SPL handbooks. It's not about the patch, it's about getting the team functioning efficiently. Honestly, my recommendation for a new young troop using the SPL and PL Handbook is more to shape the adults minds to a "patrol-method troop" program because they would otherwise force their own vision on the scouts. Usually the adults vision forces scouts to wait and follow the adults when it should be the other way around. As long as the adults are using the same guides as the scouts, everyone's energies are going in the same direction even if nobody is really sure of the goals yet. If somebody has a question, everybody pulls out the same handbook to check. Barry