Eagledad

That article sure brought back memories. Lots of blood, sweat, and tears. But great memories I will always cherish. The three of us new adults starting the new troop had no problem with patrol method because we came from Greenbar Bill patrol method experiences. What threw us was New Scout Patrols. Before NSPs new scouts joined troops individually all year, not as groups of dens in January. Doesn't seem like a big deal until you find that troop schedules become wrapped around January crossovers. Before NSPs, patrols were mostly responsible for getting their new scouts up to speed with scout skills and basic camping skills. There was no set troop agenda because patrols received new scouts any time of the year. Patrols were by default responsible for their scouts growth. But once whole dens crossed over, all the patrols were forced on the same schedule. And the nature of humans naturally shifted new scout growth to the troop level just to be more efficient. Since we came from boy run troops, we were trying to achieve the same goals for our troop. And of course we tried all the BSAs recommendations along with our own experiences. We found NSPs by their nature are more adult intrusive unless the troop guides are are very mature. I have often said that we never had a TG 14 and younger that was any better than terrible. And we never had one 15 and older that was less than fantastic. But no matter how the troop guide is used, they are not natural to patrol method. We have a pretty good system now of using TGs when we have to and we mix new scouts in mixed age patrols within six months. But it took several years to figure out. Barry

I'm trying to wrap my head around stoshs leadership flow structure and I realize that, at least for me, it's not a leadership flow structure as much as it is an experience structure. Older more experienced scouts are naturally ambitious to move into positions where they can effectively "take care of their boys" from a perspective of working with Patrol Leaders. Too often rank and leadership are confused as positions of stature or authority instead of positions knowledge and maturity. When the 12 year old Patrol Leader needs advice, will he instinctively go to the 11 year old Patrol Leader, or the 16 year old SPL? And scouts don't stop "taking care of their boys" just because they aren't patrol leaders. Barry

What, new crossovers join the troop thinking that they are going to try something completely new? All election cycles are adult driven because the adults give the scouts a structure to start from. That's what what Beavah was trying to say about Stoshes first troop he Scoutmastered. Not giving a 10 year old enough structure to feel safe, much less confident in the program scares them. The problem with using obscure far fetched analogies to justify personal theories is that they distract the discussion from real ideas. There is nothing wrong with letting patrols makes the choices for selecting their leaders, but suggesting that that new ideas come natural to boys without any experience to base their choices doesn't make sense. I know of several troops where the patrols pick their leaders on their time (like Stosh suggested), but it took a lot of coaching from the SM to develop that style because it is not natural to American boys. It requires a whole different way of thinking. A lot more coaching than a SM just saying "do it by the book or every six months". Which is fine if the SM supports the style, but let's not suggest that patrols picking their leaders when ever they want is less intrusive than 6 month election cycles because once the scouts get used to a style (any style), they use it without adult interference. blw2, if the patrols picking their leaders on their time is what you want, you (the adult) will have to give them the idea, teach them how to do it, and then coach them as they try it. Then once they get it, you can sit back and relax as the perpetual machine takes over. The discussion should be more about what kind of structure gives the young scouts the most advantage for making independent choices. What can adults do to give scouts the confidence and the will to be creative and make independent choices. Face it, adults are part of the program structure. Lets not demonize them, but instead put forward experiences and ideas that give the scouts the best program. Barry

When man defines morality, the man with the biggest stick redefines morality and the poorest always suffer the most. Man has a short memory. The community changes when the governments compassion replaces Gods compassion. In the early times, if a stranger came to town down and out, the church would take them in, feed them, clothe them and find them a job. If the stranger took the food and clothes but refused work, food and clothing stopped. The church was compassionate as God demands of Christ's church, but pragmatic as well in changing mans position of taking and giving. The government (ambitious men with a self serving agenda) redefined compassion so that not only did they define compassion as taking from the haves and giving to the have nots with only the expectation of a vote. I came to really understand Gods compassion vs mans compassion when the town we were living in was struggling with teenage girls getting pregnant for government compassion. They had it down to three kids to be set for life. This wasn't a trend, it is a culture. this isn't a religious discussion, it's a pragmatic explanation of why short sighted man keeps repeating history, as this discussion points out. Barry

Teaching parents how to be observers is just part of a scouters responsibility. I imagine even Badon Powell struggled with it. Helping parents stepping back little by little to give their kids independence is one of those extra 5 minute bonuses talks I gave in my Scoutmaster Specific Class. It takes practice and some scouters are just better at theses things, but typically the sooner you talk to parents, the better the listen and accept what you are saying. Barry

I've never seen the scouts allow the crew to get spread out. I don't know, maybe it's because we are a patrol method (take care of your boys) troop. However, I have experienced scouts like Sentinel describes on many of backpacking crews. They are frustrating because just as Sentinel says, they are miserable the whole trek. I've tried everything, but once they decide they hate backpacking, there is no changing their mind. Typically they figure it out in the first couple miles too; their demeanor changes to someone you never seen before, "a big whining baby". My first experience with such a scout was a 15 year old high school soccer star. One hour on trail he was so exhausted he needed a rest every 15 minutes. I let the rest of the crew go ahead while I coached this scout to move forward with right-left-right-left, only much much slower. BUT! Once we found camp, he had so much energy that he was bouncing of trees. He loved camping and all was back to normal, or so we thought. Once he put that pack on, he reverted back to being sick and exhausted. I have experienced several of these scouts and the one thing they had in common is that they were star athletes back home. I mean athletes with scholarship prospects. My guess is that they were a bit spoiled as stars and was never pushed hard in physical demands outside their respective sport. I don't, it's just a guess. But a scout's dad was on one trek and he had had enough of his son's whining. When his 16 year old track star son decided to stop on the Philmont trail claiming he was going to die, dad let him him have it with a blecture that every member on the crew wanted to give but couldn't. It didn't change the whining sloths attitude, but it sure pumped up the rest of the crew. Normally he is a good scout, he was elected SPL six months later. Being pushed past your normal endurance separates hikers from backpackers. I did experience this same thing from an adult once. After a week of this adults child like complaining, a few scouts started to grumble about this adult once while they were cooking. His son stood up for his dad and you could see it in everybody's eyes that they felt deep empathy for their buddy. Nothing was said again, but I was angry at the adult for doing that to his son. Dad didn't get any better either. He became a SM of his younger sons troop several years later. He hated every minute. We took our shakedowns very seriously as a result these incidents. In general shackdowns help get the crews physicall and mentally prepared for the trek. However, I learned that most scouts are in good enough shape in their normal life to handle even our most physical treks. I started using shackdowns to evaluate and find the Crew members who didn't have the heart for the physical requirements of the trek, but just didn't know. If they don't have the heart and mind for it, nothing can chage it. Barry

I struggle with this too, especially with Eagles. If we were to poll all the adults on this forum of their expectations for Eagle Scouts, no two would agree. Yet, I'm sure most here do agree that the scout, not us adults, are in control of their advancement. Yet, much as many of us brag about our scouts, we aren't very loyal respecting scouts in other troops. As for scout skills, just what is so great about mastering knots in this bungee cord/Velcro culture? And a compass, I don't need no stinking compass as long as I have my Garmin. The creators of the scouting program used the skill of their time because they were a required for safety and survival in the woods. I'm old enough to admit that mastery of knots wws easy because they were used a lot for the equipment of my time. Now a scout maintains his level of skills by "teaching"? Is that really what we want? Skills are important for growth because mastering the actions for the skill give the scout mental and physical maturity. But I wonder if century old skills are holding back the program. Barry

I learned over the years that socks are the secret to foot comfort if the shoe is appropriate for the activity. I wear Smart Wool socks with thin liners on 100 degree days at summer, backpacking 10,000 feet in the Rockies, and on the Boundery Waters in Canada. The socks repell moisture and dry pretty fast. They just seem to keep the feet more comfortable even while sopping wet on long portage hikes and in the canoe. And I have never had a blister in the hundreds of hundreds of miles I portaged and backpacked. Our troop has a close toed shoe policy 100% of the time. We had a scout mess his toes up once stumbling against a small stump in camp. You only had to see the injury to understand the seriousness of the policy. Closed toed sandles are acceptable for camp shoes on backpacking and Boundary Water treks. And we found a decent quality camp sandal can be a great backup hiking shoe as well. The other adult on our Philmont crew blew out his hiking boot the 2nd day on the trail. He wore his Tevas sandles the rest of the 80 mile trek with no problems. I used to wear running type shoes at summer camp because you would think they would be more comfortable. But scouters on the forum suggested backpacking boots were more comfortable. And they are right; the support of the hiking boot is much better, which makes a big difference when standing and walking all day in 100 degree temperatures and hard packed dusty camps. I couldn't wait to get my running shoes off at the end of the day, but I can wear the hiking boots 24 hrs. Our troop uses the jungle boots stosh uses on our Boundary Waters treks because they are reasonably priced, drain well, and provide plenty of support. But my son and I decided to try the lighter Salomon Techamphibian hiking shoe because they not only drain well, they dry much quicker than the jungle boots. They are also a sturdy shoe that holds up well to heavy back pack weights. Mine are over 10 years old, have several hundred packing and canoe miles and still look almost new. Great shoes; their only disadvantage is no ankle support. I have tried close toed Keens I bought for hiking and beach wear but the toes seem to hold water and mine take days to dry out. They look stylish, but they can't compete with the Salomon in comfort, support and drainage, so they never get worn. I can't backpack anymore as a result of a recent knee injury, but if I did, I would try my Salomons Techamphibians before my Salomon backpacking boots. At least on broken in trails anyways. I like them that much. I believe footwear comfort can make or break the enjoyment of outdoor activities weather it's a hot summer day at camp or a 100 mile hiking trek. But the socks are just as important for enjoying your adventure, if not more so. Some of our cocky experienced scouts wear some pretty low quality foot gear (cheap Walmart running shoes) because they are trying to go low weight. But they never scrimp on the socks. Barry

And what if the troop doesn't have Eagles? What if the Eagle doesn't want to step up his game but the Star scout does? I guess it's me, I measure a scout by his skills, character and maturity; not rank, awards or age. The thing is while adults shouldnt do what the scouts can do, we are dangerously close to crossing the adult led line when we start assuming the scouts' dreams and ambitions. Adult leadership in a boy run program isn't for everybody. Working with each scout's growth individually requires patience, humility and thinking out of the box. Barry

That's very cool Krampus. We take a different approach in that we try to continue giving the scout challenging mature responsibilities for growth development. You're doing the same thing, but also preparing the Scouts for ASM in the future. I like that. Barry

Anybody can identify the need. Generally what happens is a situation occurs and after some discussion a JASM turns out to be the best solution at the time. Everyone from patrol leaders to adults were scratching their heads when we got 27 new crossovers all at once. I think you might be looking for a long term responsibility that can go from JASM to JASM. That isn't how we used them. It's a good idea, I just can't think where would use them in a patrol method troop. Our longest lasting JASM position was the Troop Guide helper and that only lasted two years because we tweaked the New Scout program to be manageable by the Troop Guides. Barry

I need to add that while these positions are assigned by the SM, I never did anything without the SPLs input and permission. Really these jobs came up as the both of us looked for solutions to situations. As for meeting to meeting, well look at your adults and see what they are doing from meeting to meeting. It may be almost nothing at all because their responsibility is required in other places at other times. Barry

More often than not, JASM responsibilities are smaller roles used for temporary situations. Our troop was a patrol method based troop of around 90 scouts. Anyone who understand patrol method understand the challenge for a big troop. One of our mottos was "Put the adults out of business" so that if the adults didn't show up, nothing changed. It is tempting to fix new problems with adults, but we strived to use scouts instead. One 16 year old approached me because he could only attend the first 30 minute of a troop meeting and was unreliable for campouts. He really enjoyed our troop and really liked working with younger scouts. He had no desire for Eagle, but was a really sharp scout. He ended up meeting new Grub Masters and Cheer Masters 30 minutes before the troop meeting and help them get up to speed with their job. He was really good too, he showed them how to search for cheers, songs, skits, recipes and so on. But more important he coached them how to communicate with member of the patrol to delegate and organize. Typically the new scouts get the Cheer and Grub Master, so it worked very well. And the new scouts really grew fond of him. He was typical of how older scouts are important models for the young scouts. The older scouts don't even see it. One Scout took on verifying troop first-aid equipment and policies. Another scout researched and wrote guidelines for drivers who pulled the troop trailer. Our Quartermasters typically do that job, but the JASM took it a step farther to insure a firm troop policy. When our troop received 27 new crossovers one year, a 16 year old scout took on the job to help the Troop Guides organize with schedules and training. The troop was trying a new new scout program and it was complicated with three NSPs. It was too much for Troop Guides to work with scouts and their parents, and plan their patrol meetings. JASM was the perfect job to help because he could help manage issues as they popped up and not take the Troop Guides away from their scouts. The Troop Guides like him so much that a permanent position was created. But the SPL killed it two years later because we had developed the new scout program well enough that a JASM was nolonger required. However, the lessons learned and guidelines developed by that JASM stayed with the Troop for years. It was honestly an adult job that we didn't want an adult doing because we wanted the new scouts to see a true boy run troop in action. 27 scouts is overwhelming for most troops. That scout did great. Scouts who volunteer are not looking for POR credit for advancement. As I said, they have peeked with the normal program. They are looking for non typical responsibilities to serve. Not all scouts stay in the program to serve the troop, some like the outdoors, some like hanging out with friends, some like service projects. So even though a scout may have the maturity, they aren't looking for servant responsibility that we typically give the JASM. I will try to add jobs as I remember them. Barry

We found that if the program is progressively maturing, scout growth starts peaking around age of 16. That is when they have mastered most of the skills, leadership development, and character development that a normal program can provide. They are typically better than the adults at the scouting game. So to keep their growth continuing, we start giving them more adult type responsibilities. JASM works perfect for that and they typically do very well. Barry

Its been said (even by you) that most scouters have to be untrained from their parental instincts because a boy run program takes an objective open mind. Eagles adults are typically just Eagle "parents" when they start volunteering. While I am not an Eagle, I certainly had to be deprogrammed to grow and move forward as a scouter of a patrol method troop. And I learned as a scout in a patrol method Troop. Patrol Method was all I knew. Barry

Sounds like fun. I'm sure they are providing a list of the equipment you will need. As for the rest, just have fun. Barry

I have never seen a scout loose a challenge based on an adult leaders opinion. The adults are more incumbent to present factual evidence than the scout. And while it seems the adult here is taking a lot of hits, typically it is the scouts who are pushing the boundaries. And it is more often than not usually the scout's parents forcing the challenge. Barry

I don't doubt your observations Krampus. I was just a little surprise. I did kind of take the "walk on water" as meaning to have a bit of an Eagle Ego. While I have seen brand new Eagles strut around a bit, that wore off pretty fast. I have never seen it with adults. But like I said, No doubt they are out there. Could be my Ego shadowed theirs. I am not an Eagle, but I probably thought a lot of myself as a Scoutmaster. Now we did have one adult Eagle whose personality always lite up the room just by his presence. But he was also an Air Force General who graduated from the Air Force Academy, so we took it in stride and really enjoyed him. Generals are a different breed. The one benefit of his occupation was he expected respect for rank, so he gave full respect to the position of Scoutmaster, whether or not the SM deserved it. He's a good guy and we are still very good friends. He is the head of our Experimental Aircraft Association and recently got me a personal tour of a Ford Trimotor. Very cool. Barry

Glad to see you back Beav. I knew there was something up at National back when they restricted the ceremonies where Cub Scouts were held up-side-down while receiving their Bobcat badge. If their justification had been risk of physical harm, I would have accepted that. But their justification is to prevent "hazing". Hazing! Barry

The third point of the three points for success is build a team that believes in the vision and the plan. Just about every successful unit has a group of adults like this. Our SM did something similar to TAHAWKs SM. Barry

That is interesting, I can't recall a single Eagle who thought they walked on water. Maybe it's my sunglasses; I wear polarized and sometimes they have a funny affect on things. Barry

What is that saying, there is no selfless act. What is it about the steps to earning Eagle that are supposed to make that person special? As a SM, I never paid much attention to the scouts's advancement. More accurately I never took it or made it personal. Growth and maturity are my responsibility, ambition is their responsibility. About the only thing that stands out to me as a specific for Eagle advancement is the Eagle project. But even then I don't really pay that much attention because I have over the years already learned the scout's temperament, character and personality in the actions planning, leading and managing. Rarely is the character of the Eagle Scout different from when he was a First Class, Star and Life Scout. I know the scout pretty well by the time he is working on his project, so my respect for the scout doesn't change when he gets Eagle. What has the Eagle scout done that sets him to such high expectations over any other scout? When my dad earned Eagle back in the 40's, he said that a local judges were the EBOR because at that time in our culture judges were expected to have high moral character and the best judges of it. So is the Eagle really just about character? What about skills? I once read that the Army looked specifically for Eagles for the D-Day invasion because they without question were leaders and knew first-aid. Pretty tall respect for such an important event in history. I also learned that in the day, less than 3% of all scouts earned Eagle. I was a scout in the 60's in a Troop of 80 for five years and we only had one Eagle during that time. Of course when I see an Eagle do something that is not expected from an Eagle, I am disappointed. But thinking back on all the Eagles acquaintances and scouts over my lifetime (that is a lot), I can honestly say that most of them have above average character in most ways. True, Eagles do learn more first-aid than most people and they get to try their hand a leadership as well, but could it be possible that most Eagles are just representative of who they are rather than what scouting did for them? Oh of course I've seen immature Eagles do some immature things, but their was still something a little special about them. The one and only scout I can remember who I felt maybe lacked in showing the Eagle character was pushed hard by his parents. Good kid but never had a chance to follow his own dream and you could see it in his eyes. Our youngest Eagle at 14 is now a very highly respected software inventor. But I remember a 14 year old very nerdy scout who on some days challenge my patience. The reason he got his Eagle was because he was very ambitious and smart enough to sail through Merit Badges.But was this scouts selfless in his character? Very much so. He had shed his immaturity by 16 years old and was a enjoyable adult to be around. He is still a nerd, but he is showing off his leadership skills as the CEO of a very successful company. What is very interesting about this young man is that his ambition has always been about challenging himself. It has never been about material rewards. He only got the Eagle because it was handed to him. It was never a big deal. I struggle to judge the expectations of Eagles because I've got to know about the real life trials these men go through before and after they earn the Eagle. While many have their bad moments in life, they seem to still stand above most in the way they treat other people. Even here on this forum, the Eagles kind of stand out. Barry

Well lets see, as the district commissioner, I'm starting a new troop and I get to choose between Eagle94 or Billy Bob to be the SM. Hmm, thinking, thinking....... Barry

The discussion is about the BSA changing their program to accept girls in cubs and troops. The CO option is irrelevant to the discussion because a total program change would be required just for CO's to have a choice. Barry

It's a tough question. Can you live with this or should those boys miss any kind scouting experience to save the integrity of scouting? It's nothing new, even Badon Powell and Hillcourt struggled with this frustration. Barry