Eagledad

Yep, this is a huge problem with units when they don't have the proper examples to guide them. It can also be a problem when the Districts and Counsels set bad examples of policies and activities. Our troop does adult and scout training different than an another troop, much less the District and Council. I learned quickly as a volunteer for District and Council that I couldn't go around teaching our specific Troop courses as the general District or Council courses because most units are not like ours in the details, especially the newer units with adults who don't have a lot of experience. BSA published courses are the best starting places for troops looking to start youth leadership training. Then they can modify the syllabus or even start their own style of training once they understand the objectives and specific requirements for their program. Barry

In the last year, I bought about $100 worth of popcorn from the Boy Scouts and $100 of cookies from the Girl Scouts. I give the popcorn back to the scouts so they could double their sales, although this year I heard they donated it to the Military Service Men and Women. Pretty cool really. I give away just about all our cookies to our adult kids. OK, my wife hides one box of Thin Mints in the freezer. I admit that I wouldn't be as likely to spend as much money on the Girl Scouts if the little girls weren't so darn cute. Kind of the same reason Cubs can sell a lot more Popcorn in person than the Boy Scouts. Same goes with Scouting for food, the Cubs are just better. We have not seen Campfire around here in a while, are they still selling candy? That candy is sooooo good, we give it tour kids of course, but one box is always sacrificed to the freezer god. By the way, unless things have changed, the BSA units got 40% profit while the Girl Scout units got somewhere around 10%. Barry

That is a good answer and one I would take to the SM for a curious response. I would also be curious what has motivated that suggestion. Is there frustration or just an idea of his own. A lot times the young scout is just sounding off what the older scouts are saying. This will be something interesting for you to ponder. Barry

Before you ask how to make it happen, ask the scout what he means by boy led. You would be surprised at what boys think boy led means. Barry

The scout is not in the middle of the circle, he is an equal part of the circle. Actually a square since typically it's just the four of them. Barry

THIS IS WHY THE BSA SHOULD TAKE TIGERS OUT OF THE CUB PROGRAM! Oh wait! Wrong discussion. Sorry Barry

We had a few surprises, mostly from scouts who transferred from other troops that weren't yet familiar with the policy differences. We were doing a Star BOR for one scout who just joined our troop. It turned out that he had not yet met his leadership requirement. I can't remember how it got past the SM Conference, but we couldn't let the scout continue, so we talked a lot of how to present the situation to the scout so that it was a negative experience. Turns out he kind of saw it coming, but was too shy to say anything. All was well. Then we had a few challenges with some mentally challenged scouts. We learned to have the parents close by so we could refer to them if needed. Barry

First, lets remember the purpose of the BOR. It is a quality check on the Scoutmasters program, not the scout. If the scout appears to be unprepared, the SM should be held accountable. A good scoutmaster wants to hear the results to learn of areas that may need attention. I certainly did. Our troop has been using the guide Torchwood suggested for over 25 years. I works very well because the questions are pretty good for learning if the SM is in fact doing a good job. It also makes it easy for new board members to ask the right questions and eventually get everyone settled and comfortable enough to relax. That is when a member might ask non canned question that is more personal to the scout, like asking a question that gets the scout talking about his family or school experiences. And really folks, it's not about the questions being asked, it's how the questions are being asked. The board can take on the image of strange adults judging the scouts performance or they can be a group of adults wanting to get to know the scout better through his scouting experience using the exact same questions. Our board looks very much like stosh describes his ideal board. We use a lot of canned questions because they help the board and scouts get comfortable quickly. Adults who don't have a lot of experience and don't have a few canned questions tend to either not ask any questions, or ask inappropriate questions. Everyone of course wants the BOR experience for the Scout to be positive. But we forget that the adults should want the same experience. Nothing is more rewarding than getting to know a scout better. Our board tries to be warm, encouraging and enthusiastically curious about the scout's experiences in the troop. You know the board is doing well when the adults come out excited from the experience. That is why I like parents being part of the board. We found that our Patrol Leaders and SPL like to introduce the scouts to the board. That wasn't an adult idea, it came from the scouts. Probably an Eagle started that from his EBOR, I don't know. But the scouts sure enjoy it and I like anything that breaks the ice for the BOR candidate. Our troop has two or three BOR leaders that head the BORs. We like that because typically one of them is with troop where ever it is and can call a BOR board together anytime a scout request. The BOR leader has the canned questions and looks for two other members. They coach the board a little before the scout shows up. It works for our troop and the scouts like it. One final note, I have always felt that if the troop truly wants to learn about how well the program is doing, the board should also talk to the parents. Oh I know that is logistically challenging, but many boys aren't going to be completely open to a bunch of strange adults. The parents on the other hand might. And, it is an opportunity for the parents to say what is good about the troop. We have never tried it, but I have always wanted to try it. Barry

Training as well. 21Century, IOLS and most other courses were a result of the female leader policy change. But it had little to do with their gender, bringing females into the program more than doubled the membership without a youth scouting experience and very limited outdoors experience. The training had to change to fit the needs of the demographic membership coming into the program. Remember the tradition of holding Cubs up-side-down to pin their Bobcat badge on their shirt? That was one of the early casualties of the softer gentler scout program. I remember the female leaders on the forum in the mid 90s were passionate about that ceremony going away. G2SS calls it hazing, which was ridiculous. Barry

It may have changed now, but the reason policies with MB counselors grew more strict is because the majority of abuse complaints were from the counselor/scout meetings. Barry

This is the one policy our district does right. We train all MB Counselors in our district before the college. Makes it easy to keep the Counselor list updated. Barry

As was said, the organization has been heavily influenced for a long time by a political activism organization that is pro female and anti male. The policy is not in writing nor discussed much, but is generally understood. And originally it wasn't really a fear of abuse, but more of over emphasis of influential female role modeling for the girls that has gone out of control. I learned this through a friend who was the equivalent of our Council Executive. On the plus side (at least for some of us), the Girl Scouts organization will never agree to merge with the BSA or flex it's activism muscle at the BSA so long as the BSA stays away from adding girl members. Does anybody recall the Girls Scouts piling on the BSA during the gay controversy? Not much. To be fair, my personal experience is the Girl Scouts are accepting of limited male volunteerism at district and council level. They seem to frown on it more at the Troop level. It's a bit ironic that the BSA program lost some of it's outdoor influence by adding female Troop leaders, but the Girl Scouts are missing out on adding outdoor influence by limiting the male involvement. Crazy world. Barry

I am not a big fan of the Girl Scouts organization because they have been used by political activist with an agenda for over 30 years; their program has suffered as a result. But as a scouter, I am glad they are earning a lot of money for the girls. I just about bought out a little girl who come to our door the other day. Her mom got out of her car to meet me just to make sure my large purchase was legit. The sad part is that since we are on a diet, I gave all the cookies away. Note to self: Kids want more Thin Mints. That being said, I agree with Calico that church leaders need to describe better why the church shouldn't follow specific organizations. However, I'm not sure he may agree as much with me. Church leaders need to be more bold and aggressive in describing why organizations don't fit in Gods plan of moral living so their followers learn what makes them different as Christians. The average Christian today is clueless of the moral habits God demands of them. They are part of the cause for the decline of family values and the youth are suffering as a result. Christians today are ignorant to the point of thinking there are no immoral acts or consequences of sin. What good is it to follow a God and ignore why they are followers in the first place. Note to self: need to hide a box of the Caramel delights next year. Barry

I'm with you I'm with you Calico, but I also came to the OPs conclusion that MB Fairs, Colleges or whatever are here to stay. So I decided to use them for teaching scouts and Troop leaders how the MB process is supposed to work as guided by the BSA. My ultimate goal is for units to learn the process well enough to encourage MBs all year, rather than waiting for fairs or summer camp which is becoming more typical of many troops. If the fairs or Colleges encourage the counselors to attend training once a year before the event, then the District has a current list of trained counselors all the troops can use. The list would get updated every year and the training would remind counselors how the process is supposed to work and the benefits for the scout other than just advancement. And the Troop leaders are reminded every year how the counselor search and signup is supposed work, as per the BSA guidelines. That was my plan anyway. Barry

OK, it's just seems you keep describing the BSA program when you brag about stosh scouts. I guess well done is in order. Barry

After reading this again, it occurs to me that you despise the BSA program so much that you have lost much of the knowledge to really understand the program. You obviously don't realize that the scouts are suppose to eventually accept the vision as their own. And you seem to think that adults aren't expected to step back as the scouts mature, but that is part of the BSA program. You think you are being profound, but you are just doing what the BSA ask. As a result, your leadership is likely more adult run than most Scoutmasters in mature BSA boy run troops. You simply don't know of the tools available to you for building a high performance patrol method program. Let me show you what I mean; lets assume that each of us start with two identical groups of boys of identical ages and experiences. I believe my group will be a functioning independent patrol in half the time of your group with only a 3rd adult guidance from me. How will I do that? We've agreed that scouts require some intervention to provide them the knowledge for moving forward. I will simply give them the Scout Handbook, SPL Handbook, PL Handbook and the BSA Field Book, which have enough vision and guidance in the contents to start a functional working patrol with very minimal adult guidance. It's all there, roles and responsibilities of each member, how to cook, what to eat, how to start fires, set up tents, run meetings, how to dress, and on and on. Most of my guidance will likely be requested by the scouts and in the areas that require some on-the-spot adult wisdom for clairty. Most of the request are usually scouts requesting guidance on character challenges. That is usually the time when suggestions like "just take or your boys"or " what does the law say?" helps encourage scouts through their challenges. But for the most part, the patrol method and operation details that are insequential to the Aims are left up to the scouts and their handbooks. Those handbooks make the 100 yard separation easier to acquire. All I'm saying is that adults who use the tools provided by the BSA are likely less adult run. Barry

You're fooling yourself believing that "take care of your scouts" isn't your adult vision, expectation or goal. Barry

All good stuff, stosh, but nothing in your post addresses subject of guiding scouts to change the troop culture. When it was suggested that adult guidance was needed to change the troop culture, you said; ""I have always found that whenever adults step in to "help" it actually slows things down and along with drinking coffee, I find myself spending more time with keeping the adults out of the way than I do having fun with the boys. It shouldn't be that way. I'm thinking the trial and error that is being addressed here is the adult trial and error attempts. I find that the boys figure things out much quicker when it is THEIR trial and error dynamics in place How can he boys figure it out by THEIR trial and error when nobody tells them the error? How will the scouts figure out how to change through THEIR trial and error if nobody steps in to explain the goals or vision? Isn't "take care of your scouts" simply giving a goal or vision for the scouts to work toward? I think MattR has it right and you haven't said anything to make me think differently. When the scouts are driving the program the wrong way, someone has to step in for a course correction. The correction can be a simple as "take care of your scouts". But I believe it is the responsibilities of the adults to step in and encourage scout growth. That is really what the program is all about. Barry

It's been a while since I bought new shorts, but find a nearby Army/Navy Surplus store and compare their shorts with the BSA shorts. They used to be almost identical in color and appearance. Barry

I'm sure it's my age, but what I hear you saying is that even when the troop culture is going opposite of "take care of your boys", the adults should not provide any guidance because the scouts will eventually figure it out? So help me, what will the scouts figure out since nobody is guiding them of what they are doing? You have briefly been a SM twice while on this forum. How many times have you told the forum that you instruct the scouts to "take care of your boys"? Is that instruction by you the SM not adult guidance? Did we misunderstand? I think it is important because a lot of scouters scan this forum for help and the subject of guiding scouts to make conscious choices in changing their behavior is a challenge for almost all troops and adults. Barry

The reason the BSA created Tigers was to compete against the Campfire program that started recruiting boys in the first grade. Barry

As I said, the pack that took out their Tiger program has had no issues. But if you are really worried that scouts may feel they are missing by not doing tigers, then you aren't taking the adult burnout issue seriously or you just don't believe five years in Cub Scouts burns adults out. I understand, sometimes these things take a while to understand. Barry

You're making it way to hard and my intention is for scouts to get opportunities to earn badges they might not get elsewhere using basic BSA guidelines . You are so afraid of the system getting abused that you are taking away the advantages that a fair can provide. I have no problem with the showcase idea and think it can work too, but I don't think you should be afraid of counselors working with scouts at these fairs. I trust the counselors to do the right thing if they are instructed of the true intention of the fair. I was going to instruct the counselors to counsel the scouts the same way they counsel scouts outside of the fair. Don't set different deadlines or completion goals because we want scouts to expect and follow the same routines and expectations of counselor anywhere. Use the resources provided at the fair as best you can and then make other arrangements with the scouts if needed. Just make sure to never be alone with a scout. I would even suggest they use a different locations if they access for badges that would do better in a different environment like science, aviation, and outdoor activities like hiking, biking and swimming. I am not suggesting that the organizers arrange these badges, they just shouldn't limit the opportunities. The fair is a good place to teach counselors how to do their counseling better. Part of my motivation for running the fair this way is to teach the Troops how they are supposed to use the MB system as guided by the BSA and how MB counselors should work with scouts. I learned over the years that district events set the example for how units should run their programs. In this case, troops in our district developed some really bad habits with the MB system they learned from our old MB Fair. I wanted to change that back around. Another advantage of the Fair is that it provides annual MB Counselor training. Our district has started doing that with a couple of trainers from our troop. They have their own district trainers now, but since we were already training our counselors, we help the district to get started. As I said, the district can change bad trends by running district events the right way. I also did that in our District training course as well. Barry