Eagledad

The Scout program was created to build character. It is designed so that a boy finds character by learning from choices he makes during the scouting activities. Is wearing the proper uniform to Troop meetings a right or wrong choice? He only has to open his Scout Handbook to find out. Not the SPL, not the PLC, not older scouts and certainly not the adults. The Scout Handbook has the quick simple answer. Barry

From: 30 Days to a Better Man Day Cultivate Your Gratitude The following story ran in a newspaper some years ago: The District of Columbia police auctioned off about 100 unclaimed bicycles Friday. “One dollar,†said an 11-year-old boy as the bidding opened on the first bike. The bidding, however, went much higher. “One dollar,†the boy repeated hopefully each time another bike came up. The auctioneer, who had been auctioning stolen or lost bikes for 43 years, noticed that the boy’s hopes seemed to soar higher whenever a racer-type bicycle was put up. Then there was just one racer left. The bidding went to eight dollars. “Sold to that boy over there for nine dollars!†said the auctioneer. He took eight dollars from his own pocket and asked the boy for his dollar. The youngster turned it over in pennies, nickels, dimes, and quarters-took his bike, and started to leave. But he went only a few feet. Carefully parking his new possession, he went back, gratefully threw his arms around the auctioneer’s neck, and cried. When was the last time you felt gratitude as profoundly as this little boy did? Aesop said, “Gratitude is the sign of noble souls.†Indeed, gratitude is one of the hallmarks of a life lived well. It is a virtue that profoundly impacts your personal happiness and the quality of your relationships. We often assume that people either get thanks from other people or that they just somehow know how grateful we are for what they do. We are usually wrong on both counts. Gratitude is inextricably tied up with the virtue of humility. Gratitude shows that we’re paying attention to the acts of service people perform for us and that we truly understand how those acts make our life better, easier, and happier.

Over the years of watching 1000s of boys in scouting, I have concluded that prepubescent males think of responsibility as work and and adventure as fun. You tell us that you order your new scouts to pick a leader and figure it out. If they don' t like it, tough, figure it out. They don't know how to set up tents, they don't know how to cook, many are still afraid of the dark, but you order them to figure it out. And you don't think that style of scoutmastering is a type of adult run? I guess it could work, but you are scoutmastering your 3rd troop in roughly five years. I can't help but feel that you have left out 95% of how you run your troop. Certainly nobody here reading your posts could duplicate your claims by reading your thoughts of the process. If anything, your style sounds on the edge of abusive neglect. Maybe it just has to be seen to be understood. I need more meat with your potatoes to understand your vision. What is your vision? Barry

Yes, I think so. Kudu and I used to debate whether program success is a result of program application or program guidance. In other words, Kudu felt the program design was the main contributor to program success; where as I believe performance is more the result of how the SM guides the program. The BSA used mixed age patrols successfully until around 1990. The motivation to turn to NSPs was to slow down the drop out rate of the first year scouts, which happened to be, and still is the highest drop out group in the BSA program. And one intention for that change was in theory to shift the performance of the New Scout drop outs from the adults to the program design, which I agree in theory. But as it turns out, the first year drop out rate hasn't improves with NSPs. I believe the reason first year scouts drop out is because of the sudden paradigm shift of going from an adult lead life to being self responsible. NSPs don't really relieve that stress on the scout. The fallacy of the NSP is that the BSA and most adults believe age is 95 percent the reason scouts would want to hang together. Of course it seems natural that same age boys would have a draw to other boys their own age. And certainly boys who have been hanging around each other for five years in Cubs would want to hang together as well. However while those reasons may dominate the reason boys would hang together in an unfamiliar environment like the first night of a troop meeting with a bunch of older stranger scouts, boys aren't as simplistic as we would like to think. Most new scouts want to hang out with older scouts for a lot of reasons; one is that it makes them feel cool. Another is they feel a little more secure in their unfamiliar environment with older confident scouts. Older scouts are like older brothers. And friends? Well we found that while a whole den of Webelos may be friends, most have only one or two (mostly one) who they would need to feel comfortable in "any" patrol; mixed, same age or whatever. Just one. So yes I believe we over think it and take away some of the life growth and confidence building a boy can gain with an experience of starting a great experience with a few strangers. I also believe that success of building the confidence of new scouts to slow down their drop out depends largely on the SM, not the program design. I'm not trying start another discussion of adding to the syllabus, but I did spend a few minutes at SM Specific explaining why new scouts struggle with their new environment. I believe that while each SM will mold the program to fit their personality, I also believe that if they don't understand the fear of a new scouts, their success with new scouts will be about the same whether not matter what type of patrol they use. I have observe that very thing. That is not to say that one style isn't better than another, I have learn from experience that, at least with my style of scoutmastering, mixed age patrols perform much better over all. But as far as the success of preventing first year drop outs, I don't really believe it matters what patrol a scout joins. As far as growth is concerned, it matters a lot, especially after six months. That is why I like to spend a lot of our discussions helping scouters work better with the scouts. That is where the real difference is in the short run. Barry

Stosh, you are braggingly a self proclaimed Heretic. Whose doing the whining? Barry

When a scoutmaster signature is required, I don't rubberstamp anything, I use my power responsibily. I'm a mature smart adult who uses unbiased reasoning for judging such things. Demonizing adult responsibilities under the cover of "adult run" is a simplistic hostel way of trying to intimidate the conversation in one direction. The discussion is a lot more productive for everyone when discussing how to use the responsibility of the signature properly. Barry

I have worked with a lot of new adults and new troops, my experience is adults with a youth scouting experience are three years a head of adults without it. Adults who never experienced boy run rarely understand it or its advantages and never really get it. Their programs typically turn into advancement driven troops where the maximum age is around 14.There is only so much scout skills a scout can learn before the program gets boring. Adults with the youth scouting experience may struggle some at first with boy run because we have to get them past their parenting instinct, but they are so comfortable with the camping and scout skills part of the program, their scouts settle into the program much faster because they are having more fun with the adventure. I had a dozen Eagle ASMs while I was scoutmaster, I can't recall having to untrained any of them. I also found that adults with no scouting experience had to prove to themselves that they were worthy of being scouts. Their programs were basically their experiment to prove to themselves they were qualified to be scouts, which is one reason they were advance driven. Women Scoutmasters particularly struggled with this problem. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate all volunteers and their time, but if I had my choice for starting a new troop with new leaders, give me adults with a youth scouting experience every time. We skip the hard stuff and move strait to working on scout growth.. Barry

Demonizing the adults again are you. The SM approval is a required part of the process. If the SM is a guide of taking care of your boys, then they are likely using the same wisdom in how they approve OA candidates. Barry

You are pretty wise for your age Sentinel. And I'm not saying that because your thoughts are basically the same as mine; ok maybe because they are the same as mine. Lol But I wanted to further your thought on getting volunteers; when it was observed that I had a talent for getting volunteers, the district started using me to fill committee positions. When Comittee Chairman asked me for my secret, I told him I simply asked them personally. I won't go into all the details of getting volunteers, everyone can refer back to your post. But you hit the high points well. Barry

It's unscout like to make accusations base from ignorance. Clearly you have less understanding of the UUA than I have. Disagreeing with speech is not a violation of the first amendment? You must be a young man, Cyclops, because your reactionary post is out of context. That's ok, we all grow from our experiences. But, character is also defined as much by appropriate inaction as it is action. Barry

Correct! Barry

Yes, your experience describes the Unitarian churches around here. But the religious awards is such a small part of the program, that families who valued the scouting program at all were willing to except that restriction. Members who claimed religious award was their reason for not considering scouts were likely not interested for other ideological reasons as well. The basis, I'm told, of the church is for individuals to find their own God. That is kind of an anti values approach to conservative spiritality anyway, so Unitarians in general struggle ideologically with the BSA program. Those accept the BSA program for what it is and represents in comparison with their personal spiritual beliefs would have likely joined anyways. This is what I learned from our Unitarian parents. Spiritality in the BSA is conservative in its nature, so it isn't as attractive to the more liberal ideological person. My fear is spiritual values, which are the foundation of the program vision, will be diluted over time from pressure of the culture. like the YMCA and Canadian Scouts, the BSA will turn into a weekend outdoor activities club for youth to just pass the time. Growth of character from a standard set value traits will be taught as anti individual and politically incorrect. Barry

I don't see how it helps, the only restriction on Unitarians was recognition of their church specific religion badge. We had a couple of Unitarian families in my troop. Any family that decided against scouting because of the restriction wasn't really wanting the scouting program anyway. Barry

I will take this since I'm one who tends to be more out spoken of unBSA program guidance on this forum. When posters start declaring standards BSA policies, procedures and guidelines as wrong or even hostel to the program, the scales have been tipped. When "one" suggest that SPLs are only good for scoutmasters who want to secretly manipulate the Patrol Leaders, I would say that is pretty much heresy material. When as poster suggest that the adult leader styles of mentoring, guiding and teaching taught in the BSA training only corrupts the scouting growth process, well that certainly isn't the BSA. I can't think of a single teacher/instrucotr from my early elementary years through college and then professional training courses where they didn't enhance the material with their own interpretation and experiences. So why is this a question here. Is it fair to ask a SM with 10 years experience not to color the material with some experiences? There is quite a difference proposing a scouting program that is counter to the BSA program as apposed to adding styles of context to the published BSA program. A simple test is to hypothetically hand all the materials to the Scouts and allow them to run the program with only the guidance of clarity, not direction. That is the true test of how much adults can influence their program. It would be one thing for a single patrol of scouts to decide not to use the SPL because it confuses the single patrol leadership structure. It is entirely different when the adult says SPLs are just spies for SM in adult run troops. I guess the real test of adding content to training is if the content helps the participants turn their program toward the BSA program, or away from the BSA program. That may be hard to judge in many cases, but it is quite obvious in others. I also believe that if a SM thinks they are being profound with the direction of their program, they likely have steered their program off the BSA reservation. We get into discussions of the best performing styles and policies on this forum. But that isn't really countering the BSA program. And the discussion can get challenging when some adults run their program purely by their personal theories. But when the adults are condescending to the leaders who are using the BSA program, then they have certainly tip the scale. Barry

Ah yes, well said. Barry

Oh, I don't know. Most scoutmasters don't set specific expectations for OA candidates like the PORs. Nether are OA expectations set in the unit leadership training or in the Scouts' Handbooks. Living the Scout Spirit is pretty much accepted as a constant all-the-time expectation. If the Scoutmaster feels the program has faltered in a minimum standard that should be expected for an OA candidate, he/she is not obligated to allow substandard behavior qualifications just because they weren't given a specific set of expectations six months prier. The Order of the Arrow doesn't want these types of scouts anymore than a Scoutmaster who doesn't want to send them. Barry

The scoutmaster exemplifies the character and integrity expected of the troop. Whether we like it or not, being the gatekeepers of Scout Spirit is part of the job. I'm not suggesting what you should do; age, maturity and experience must be part of the equation. I'm only saying that your actions are the standard by which everyone will know how they are to treat each other. Barry

You seem to be contradicting yourself by first agreeing with Stosh's point that all generations are the same, and then commenting that volunteers from older generations are better. I can understand your frustration with parents, but what you don' understand is that we have all been there; even the old generations. It's just part of the job. Of course we learn to become disappointed in our fellow neighbors, but that is the price we pay for being naive servants. In talking with my dad about scouts in the 30's and 40s, parents weren't any more involved in his generation than now. In fact they were involved less because the older generations didn't the 2 adult requirements. The SM was the only adult on most of his campouts. If there is a difference that stands, the youth in my dad's day (and myself really) had more independence from the parents. Thus there wasn't the helicoptering that we see today. Why is a different discussion. Maybe the frustration of todays volunteers is a result of them feeling the need for more help to run their boy run units. Maybe todays volunteers are more helicoptering than we realize. That thought leads to a whole lot of other discussions as well. Barry

What I was trying to do is help the adults understand when they were getting in the way of the growth intended during the scouting activities. First, they need to ask themselves what they think would happen if the adults weren't that situation. Most adults expect the worst and struggle to go forward even trying to get past their fear. Actually you see the effects of some fear in just about every unit. Common fears are allowing young scouts with older scouts because older scouts won't respect and even pick on them. How about the fear that older scouts don't like working with younger scouts, so the adults will go so far as to create a Venturing Crew to fix the problem. The fear may be as simple as adult checking each patrols menu because they don't trust scouts to do their own correctly. I was asked to help one new troop that was 90% female leaders. They didn't even let the scouts perform the opening ceremony at the troop meetings because they didn't feel like the boys had the maturity to perform it to the adults standards. So the adults did all the ceremonies for the boys hoping they would eventually learn by watching. Six months later nothing had changed. I help them through this by asking them to start addressing their fear bysimply teaching the scouts what to do and letting them try. It seems simple, but you would be amazed at how many adults would rather ignore getting past their fear and holding back the scouts. I know of one Scoutmaster who refused to let his scouts run a PLC meeting because he couldn't believe young scouts could run a meeting productively. He finally let them run the meeting when they were 14. The boys were so frustrated that they started dropping out. The Scoutmaster quit when he realized what was going on. As I said, all troops struggle with fear to some degree. A little bit is healthy, but when the program is held back as a result, a little guidance to get past their fears can help. I know I keep repeating myself, but typically the adults who where never scouts as a youth are the worst offenders. They just don't know what boys are capable of doing. So I gave them some advice encase they found their activities stalled. Barry

Good observation. I teach the whole syllabus as presented. But also I try to enrich the presentation with personal experiences to help the participants understand the objective better. However, I am very careful to not contradict or take away from any part of the syllabus or the intended purpose of the material. Barry

Adults restricting the scouts program by their fears is such a pervasive problem that I added a section in my Scoutmaster Specific class syllabus of how to recognize it and prevent it. Even in this discussion there is a hinting of immorality for using a toy weapon in a youth program ceremony. No wonder our children grow up confused to how they should respond to their fears. Their parents don't know the difference between fun play and aggressive hostility. Even worse, parents don't know how to teach the differences to their kids. I can't count the number of times the arrow was used in our cub ceremonies. I will never forget a few of the parents reaction on our first Webelos campout. One boy ran strait for a tree to climb, three others ran for a stream. Other boys were doing boy stuff. I admit I was caught off guard when the moms (I know I know, but it really was three moms) ran up to basically ask me to stop their sons from the dangers of the camp site. I was so struck by their concern for their son that I had to think a minute for the right reaction. I politely asked them to relax, all was ok. I learned over the years that every Webelos campout was more about working with the parents than their sons. Barry

I'm not sure exactly what answer everyone is looking for, but Philmont training is typically developed for the volunteers, and they used to encourage the whole family to go as a vacation. I had a friend who grew up going to Philmont every summer with her whole family while dad trained and instructed. Imagine a camp where the family camped in tents and played boy scout in the outdoors for a week or two. It's really a great family vacation. Plenty to do in the outdoors and I think she said they also have planned programs for the kids and spouses as well. I was asked to teach a course once, but I couldn't make it work in my schedule. Barry

Yes, when I was a scout in 60s-70s, most scouts held Arrowmen with a higher respect of stature than the Eagle. During the five years I was in the troop of 80 scouts, we had two Eagles. A lot has changed with both programs. However, when I started back again 1992, there was a big marketing push to use Eagle as a big reason for joining Cub Scouts, not to mention boy scouts. I was so taken by the heavy push that I asked our district representative to tone it down on Cub recruitment night. I'm not sure why I was offended with the heavy Eagle marketing , but I was. Working with curves and data is part of my job. The trend change in 1992 is more sudden than a reflection of a gradual culture shift. My opinion is the change reflects a planned intentional effort to set a specific expectation at the parents for our sons. Parents who eventually become unit leaders. That is not to say that setting an expectation of Eagle is a bad thing. High goals don't mean bad programs. And I'm not sure the Eagle requirements changes really had that much affect on the increase of Eagles. My observation is that adults are more tuned toward an Eagle program than in the past as a result of the marketing effort. I never heard of an Eagle counselor, guide, ASM, or whatever the troop calls them when I was a scout. But today many troops and districts have them to help scouts on their path toward Eagle. It makes more sense to me that the rise in Eagle numbers is more a rise in adult interest than the change in requirements. I am not criticising one way or the other, just an observation. My only concern with the higher emphasis of Eagles is that it has overshadowed the traditional priorities of the values and outdoors. I am a patrol method character developing zealot and national has made that more challenging in my opinion. My problem with the criticism I hear of Eagles today is the admitted lack of respect for todays recipients. Disrespecting today's Eagle with terms like pencil whipping dilutes the overall reputation of the award for all Eagles, including my dad who earned his Eagle in 1944. I understand a discussion of the differences, but some folks seem to want to punish today's recipients for not working toward yesterdays expectations. I don't think that is fair Barry

Well said. This also applies with Scoutmasters who are often confronted by parents with questions and opinions. Most of the time parents just need a little education to understand the bigger picture. Once in a while they make a point worth pondering. Barry

This has turned into a funny thread. It's well known that National wanted more Eagles and structured the Eagle program toward that goal. But the discussion should not be limited to easier Eagle requirements because the plan for more Eagles was "A Lot" more in depth than that. New Scout Patrols, troop guides, First Class in First Year, and Venture Patrols were all part of the overall design toward more Eagles. The BSA wasn't looking at more Eagles as the ultimate goal; more Eagles is an indicator of success of the program design changes. So when we have these NSP, aged base patrols, FCFY and other recent program change discussions, likely some of the Eagle bashers here are in a since supporting the new Eagle program. Barry