Eagledad

Ever since we converted to a backpacking troop, the only time are trailer is more than a 3rd full is traveling to summer camp. Even then it is mostly personal gear. Not only do we use only drivers with experience in towing trailers, our Quartermasters are trained as well in proper weight distribution and packing of the contents in the trailer, and hitching the trailer to the towing vehicle. The troop does not let the trailer leave the parking lot without the QM or someone trained by the QM because he has the keys and knowledge of proper use. Barry

Disagree? Hmmm, do I disagree? My point all along in the other discussion has been the program is quite capable of getting a scout prepared for the EBOR. Ok fine, some units have to deal with hostile boards, I understand that. Still, the message for scouters watching the forum for ideas needs to be that the program works and dealing with the un ordinary situation requires an unusual approach. To often we are driving topics to solutions that aren't necessarily practical in normal situations. But there are some adults who in one discussion brag about their personal hands on approach with scouts, and preach complete hands off in a another discussion. When the tone of the forum goes that direction, it looses integrity and those adults needing help move on. I love the ice cream analogy. It's clear and to the point and I'm sure it will be used long into the future by the few who read this forum. But it risk getting lost in the tall grass when the discussion gets in the details of defining responsibility and the adults role in the process. I would love a discussion of contributions that leads to simple applications that clarify how to use the ice cream cone analogy. But we never seem to get there anymore because we run into the wall of "my way or the highway" responses. And another great discussion dies off into another confusing gray area. I am asking for patience and respect of others contributions. Consider each suggestion as one of many to chose from, not only one. There are so many good ideas here. We should feel encouraged to contribute, not intimidated. Barry

This discussion might have more value if the Scoutmasters preaching about real leadership weren't also bragging in other discussions of coaching their same scouts through EBORs. They trust their scouts to lead through the chaos of patrol method, but they don't trust them enough to review their scouting experience to a board of strangers. I know, I know, I'm a cranky old man. But shesh, our discussions are really getting bizarre. We are making scouting way too hard for the average adult volunteer. Barry

Qwazse, I believe that the vast majority of Scoutmasters would say their program fits your model. Barry

The PLC in each troop models the SM vision of responsibility and leadership. And no two PLCs are a like. I'm not sure Bill could have written are more detailed recipe of success because it would have pushed many Scoutmasters beyond their ability to advance boy growth. Stosh has said many hundreds of times he does not respect the SPL because the PL should be recognized with the highest responsibility for the program. He also admits being forced to use an SPL when his first troop briefly grew too large for the PLs to manage. Maybe his question is more for himself to find solitude in his struggle to define the role of the SPL. I have suggested several times that the SPL responsibilities should be an opportunity for growth. Stosh can freely apply any growth he wants, but instead of trying to redefine the SPL for the scouters on the forum who use the SPL, further experiences with his own SPL might enlighten his vision. Barry

We solve this situation by encouraging scouts of different faiths to lead a service so the troop could observe different faith worships. It was an opportunity for growth. Our services are mostly canned, so most songs are faith neutral and the sermon is usually focused on the Oath and Law. So really the prayer is the only part of the service that has much of a faith based tone. Because the different different services seemed pretty much the same, dominating faith concerns quickly became a nonissue. Barry

How do you prep for the unknown? What ambush? Has one of your scouts failed an EBOR? You may have a good reason to prep for a specific situation, but as I said, I think the message to all scouter is that a quality program is the preparation for evaluating a scout's progress in the program. And politics? If nobody expresses concern about improper behavior at any level, how can it ever get changed? I always saw results by the Council and District when I submitted concerns. Barry

Even adults need to prepare for interviews and reviews in their lifetime. I'm not condemning prepping, but I do believe there is way to much focus in this discussion on prepping scouts to protect them. Of course there are a few bad examples of adults out of line, but they aren't the norm. The message in this discussion should be that the troop program should be sufficient preparation for an EBOR. How does the SM know if the program is sufficient? By the comments of scouts in the other rank BORs. Barry

Of course there is no room for absurd adult volunteerism, but if the Troop adults think of their Eagles as children, they will treat them as children. Think about that for a moment; Eagles are envisioned by the general public as the best and brightest scouts. The cream of the crop, the most skilled and best of character. If the adult leaders still think of these young men as children, shouldn't we call that helicopter scout leading? Barry

Well that's good, a lot of families left because of this non-issue. Barry

LOL My wife correlates going slow with being safer. And I can't change her. Probably the best car drivers are also motorcycle riders because they learn to be defensive in traffic, or die. Defensive driving isn't about speed, defensive driving is knowing the traffic around you and putting yourself in the least disruptive position. Pilots call it situational awareness. While situational awareness is an action, it is a servant action. Ironically for this forum, another appropriate term for situational awareness would be "taking care of the drivers around you". Barry

Since I'm not presently involved, I don't know if the program is stabilizing, stalling, thriving or whatever. What I do see is that the Boy Scouting is not on the front page of the news and discussed in the context of a political talking point. The decision to accept gay boys has for the moment calmed the activism against the movement. It's nice to have a discussions more about the boys. Barry

For many troops, the SPL is busy because he attends all the meetings and responsibilities for the unit leaders. In most summer camps, camp policies and information for the patrols are given to the unit leaders to pass down to their scouts. The SPL is that unit leader in some troops. Barry

I don't understand the strangers thing. We had introverted and learning disabled scouts who were extremely shy and they had no trouble approaching their Eagle BOR. A typical troop program doesn't work in a vacuum. Unless the Scoutmaster shelters them from strangers, Scouts have to work and deal with many strangers during their scouting activities, including the troop BORs. If anything, scouting is the best place for boys to develop confidence in conferring with strangers. Our new scouts are taught quickly how to call and discuss business with merit badge counselors. Patrol leaders and PLC members have call and work with strangers in planning activities and arranging program activities. EBOR members are the least of a scouts concerns. A shy scout in a normal troop develops the confidence and good manners to work with strangers. In my opinion, Eagle Scouts should have an adult maturity. We wouldn't question how our ASMs and Committee members deal with strangers, why would we be concerned about Eagle Scouts? A SM afraid of the EBOR needs to rethink how the troop program develop's their scouts into leaders of integrity and Citizens of Character. Barry

For the folks here who are fairly new to the scouting program, the best way to insure a scout gets his Eagle is to provide him a quality program and environment where he has opportunity to practice his skills and knowledge of the BSA program. A Scoutmaster cannot run a program by their fear of an EBOR. Sadly a few bad apples bring out stories that we hear on a forum and give the appearance of EBORs as controlling self serving adults looking to filter out scouts who appear weak. Truth is that the vast majority of Scouters join boards to meet these special scouts and to honor them. I have Scoutmastered dozens of scouts who became Eagles and I have no such horror story of EBORs. If something like that happen, I would be on top of the district immediately demanding change. I would not allow some adult force me into a position to where I have to compromise myself into coaching special instructions to get around the system. Nothing about that scenario models the law and oath. For me coaching a scout to pass an EBOR has the appearance of protecting my Ego and takes away the honor of his hard work to earn the award. I will not stand to be forced into that position. However, If an adult outside our troop interferes with the intended process of the program, I take action with the adult, not the scout or the troop program. And it does work. It wouldn't be the first time I forced a change at district or council because of bad acting. Scoutmasters need to focus on providing a quality program that isn't based on their fear of adults outside of their unit. Barry

For Petes sake, if the adults act afraid of the EBOR, the scouts are certainly going to be afraid. Some of you adults preach treating your scouts like adults, tricks and cheats doesn't sound adult to me. What bothers me is some of these adults here whining about EBORs are the same adults whining about pencil whipped Eagles. It is said that our kids are a reflection of their parents. Are Eagles a reflection of their Scoutmasters? Barry

We are very boy run, but summer camp is always a good realignment for us because it's seven days of intense boy run. We usually get two campsites, one for the boys and the other for the adults. The SPL goes to all the unit leaders meetings and works the patrols with the camp leadership. He works so hard that he has little or no time for his own activities. Because of that, our troop has a tradition of paying for the SPLs camp fees. Barry

Yep, that is uncalled for. Thanks Barry

I don't doubt your troop is justified in helping the scouts, but can you describe to me what the EBOR did to make the scout's feel ambushed? I am (warning for moderators) ignorant of such experiences. And, what is 'gotcha' star chambers? Is that some video game? Boy I feel old. Barry

As I said, our Eagle candidates typically have the maturity to handle themselves with respect and dignity in a EBOR. Prepping our scouts would be like prepping a 45 year old ASM. Our district, as far as I know, has never caused any drama on their part. And around here, asking the SM to sit in the scout's EBOR is more a formality of tradition to show honor and respect to the leader of the program where the scout developed his Eagle qualities. Our scouts personally handle their Eagle paperwork and arrange their EBOR themselves and have to invite the SM to his EBOR. If the scout chooses to not invite the SM to his EBOR, the SM might not even know the Scout's EBOR took place until Council announced the Scout is officially an Eagle. That's never happened, but it shows how much responsibility the scout has in the process compared to the adult leaders. Until this discussion, I have never heard of troops sending the SM to EBORs to protect their scout.. So I'm curious to learn of the experiences that would cause concern for your scout at the EBOR. What does "EBOR is out of place" mean? Barry

That's a pretty good idea. Barry

We had several scouts close to Eagle transfer into the troop. All great scouts, but I learned to sit down and talk about expectations because scouts come from a different Troop, District, and Council cultures that did the Eagle process differently. Once everyone gets that all straitened out, it's not big deal. Barry

I do understand the reassurance part. But it is funny, I find the source of doubt in most cases to come from the parents. When a scout asked me for the Eagle Scoutmaster Conference, I always asked the scout to invite his parents if he doesn't mind. About 50% of the parents accept the invite, and it was usually those parents that had some concern about the EBOR. So I usually addressed the few example questions more for the parents benefit so that they could feel relaxed and allow their son to feel relaxed. But again, since we assume the scout is ready, our demeanor also reflects our confidence in him. Barry

Opportunity? What does a scout in your troop learn during your practice EBOR that he doesn't already know? I don't get it, but one thing I've learned on this forum lately is that troops have a culture of expectation and each troop is different. Our culture expects a scout to act with a minimum maturity the represents his rank. A life scout is expected to act with the same maturity of the adults in the troop. And they are held accountable when they don't live up to that expectation. That maturity includes the scout taking personal responsibility for his knowledge of skills and his character. I guess we just wouldn't see a point to a practice EBOR when our scouts are at their best. This is not to say our scouts are exceptional, I don't mean that at all. What I mean is we expect scouts going in an EBOR to already be ready by the fact they have reached that point in the program. What more does a Life Scout need to learn that he hasn't already learned and experienced? Seems like the troop is taking the scout's personal business a little too personally. Barry

Hmm, this is interesting. I've never heard of practice EBORs. Maybe our EBORs (done by District) are easy, or our scouts are just above average, but the BORs not challenging. I spent a little time explaining the EBOR format during my SM Conference with the scout by giving few general examples, but that was more to show him that nothing will be asked he doesn't know. Practice EBORs? What does your EBORs ask that typical Life scouts don't already know? Barry