Eagledad

Sometimes, but I wasn't talking about management in this case. I was talking about a culture of actions, attitudes and styles within the culture, especially from the leaders. The culture includes how scouts use the oath and law in all their actions and decisions. Our troop works towards a culture of what we call servant living. In other words scouts decisions and actions with serving others before oneself. Servant leadership is part of that culture and really sets the most powerful example. It's really an attitude that sets how scouts should treat each other. But my point was that servant lifestyle of leadership doesn't have to be taught or guided once the culture is set. The older role models instilled the attitude and leadership habits to the younger scouts simply by their actions. At the same time, if the scouts are showing some bad leadership habits, skills, or styles that aren't necessarily scout like or desired, it takes outside intervention to change culture and is done best by guiding the change at the older scout role models. I'm sure my points are were already obvious to most folks here, I just thought worth repeating since there was some discussion of training in their somewhere.

A pack in our district dropped the Tiger program completely. After five years without Tigers, their numbers were the same as the numbers six years previous with the Tigers. Barry

The discussion has gone so many different directions, I don't really know what its about now. But, leadership styles tend to follow the examples set by the older scout role models. A culture develops over time and it sets the expectation of the leadership for the younger scouts. So if a troop wants to change the style of the present leadership, it typically has to be changed by outside intervention (SM guidance) at the higher levels of the youth leadership. Barry

I think the real reason they turned it down was because it was so very different from their typical MB Fair. They liked the old fair format and couldn't understand why I felt going this route was such a big deal. As for the work, I showed them that this fair required 10 percent of the work and 10 percent staff of their previous fairs. The only additional requirement was asking the school for two additional Saturdays. Usually I can sell these ideas, but I think they were miffed that I stood my ground. I was really busy at the time, so I didn't mind being removed. Barry

MB fairs can be awesome, you just have to think outside the box. The problem with fairs is they skip many of the actions that help develop growth. In most fairs, Scouts aren't expected to find the counselor, contact the counselor to make arrangements for meetings, fill out the MB Cards, and get a SM signature. Those are all actions of growth for making independent decisions and are skipped. Add that most fairs require the scouts to attend a full day even if they only want to take one MB. While they aren't asked, many counselors at fairs cut corners so the scouts can complete the requirements in one hour. At no point in the process of typical fair are scouts required to make decisions, much less think. In fact, Fairs are so much like typical school days, the scouts forget they are at a scouting event. But it doesn't have to be that way, MB Fairs can be an opportunity to gives some rewarding growth experiences toward their character and independence. It can be a different kind of scouting activity that helps a scout feel mature and adult during his experiences. We can even add other activities to enhance the experience since we have the facilities. I proposed such an event based from a district MB Fair in another state. I think Ohio, but that was 20 years ago. Here is the awesome MB Fair I propose to the district that would turn the event back into a Boy Scout event. The fair would be three weeks long. Basically a Friday night and three Saturdays. There are no sign ups, Scouts just show up Friday night of the first weekend to meet counselors and discuss expectations. Counselors stand next to a display or presentation that describes their MB so passing scouts interested in the specific badge can stop and ask questions. From the information the Scouts get from the counselors, they choose their classes and build their schedule. The scouts fill out the required MB Cards and get the SM signature and then present the card to the counselor to finalize meeting times. Then, the scout shows up to the fair the following three Saturdays to take the classes he chose. He is free to come and leave at anytime. Even though the fair is open for three Saturdays in a row, the scout and counselor can make other arrangements for other meetings. Example would be swimming, auto mechanics and a visit to the airport of the Aviation badge. The counselors will be encourage to help the scouts grow from the experience and not just turn the event into a MB grab. At the same time the district will provide adult training courses since they have the facilities for three weeks. The troops can set up displays for visiting Webelos. The Packs could even do their Pinewood Derbies. Hey, it's a fair. This is much easier to plan because it only requires the organizers to provide spaces for the counselors and training organizers. Fair Organizers don't have to keep track of anything or anyone, which is a huge undertaking in our district. There you go, an awesome MB Fair that doesn't ignore any guidelines in the advancement handbooks and provides opportunities to earn some hard to find MBs. Scouts are expected to make independent decisions for choosing the badges and meeting the counselors at the arranged times. They don't skip any part of the guidelines and they are treated as adults instead of middle school students. This is the plan I presented to the District and was turned down. Why? LOL, Because the district leaders didn't want to be responsible Boy Scouts leaving the fair without their knowledge. Adults can come and go as they please, but not the scouts. It appears independence can only go so far. I was replaced. Barry

It has been and still taught a lot, but what is called leadership in the training has been redefined as management on this forum. Ironically, "taking care of your scouts" is a character and citizenship emphasis with leadership skills as the byproduct. Simply making decisions within the definition of the POR responsibilities using the oath and law as guidelines leads to developing habits of character and citizenship. Servant leadership habits are a result of those decisions. The reason technical leadership discussions don't go very far on these forums is because they don't add much information to how we develop leadership in our programs. "Take care of your scouts" pretty much says it all. Barry

You have very good insight Cambridge. I was in scouting a lot of years to understand what you see now. Well done on your efforts toward keeping your program moving forward. Burnout is complicated in some ways by how it effects adults and scouts. When I was working with packs, I explained to the leaders that all they needed to do for happy scouts was keep the adults happy. Do what it takes to build a program where the parents and leaders enjoy coming, and you will find scouts excited to continue coming. I know it sounds backwards, but unhappy cub scouts is a different kind of burnout than scouts who have been scouting too long. Unhappy cubs are basically just bored of the program. Happy adults typically provide fun and exciting programs that makes scouts look forward to the next meeting and next year. I also agree fully with Cambridge's point that repetitive programs drive scouts away. Not so much in Cubs because each year is a different program provided the adults present them correctly. But I said a few times here, typically troops that can't hold on to their older scouts suffer from repeating the first class program over and over. As Cambridge says, step up the program as scouts mature because challenges energize each one to better themselves. Raising the bar forces the program to mature up to adult level challenges for the scouts. That is why even large mature boy run programs require so few adult leaders to maintain a high level of performance when it gets moving under it's own momentum. There really is very little adults can do better than 16 and 17 year old scouts. And if every scout is challenged, the program should always be changing because each scout has his own dream of the best troop program. It is quite something to watch when it gets going. Barry

Me think you protest to much. I keep saying I don't care how you plan your conferences and BORS and you are still being defensive. I also don't care how many adults it takes to support your program, just understand that other programs are different. Barry

You are different because you are passionate and that makes all the difference. You will find that the majority of members of this forum are passionate about scouting, so they are the exception rather than the norm. It's that way for most forums. I learned a long time ago in come classes that the normal person gives about 20 months in volunteer type responsibilities like churches scouting and other non profits. And I found that to be pretty much true when I started watching the numbers. You will even find that in youth sports as well. So, in a program like youth scouting, the organization can expect about two years of a high level of effort before the volunteer starts to loose interest. They will still put out a good level of effort a third year, but it goes down hill after that. Burnout wasn't a huge problem for the Cub Scouts before Tigers because three good years basically got the scouts through the best of the program because the burned out leader was willing to stick it out for what was left. But when Tigers came, leaders were now fading during their bear year, not Webelos. That was different because Bear leaders were still looking at two more years of effort. What makes it worse is the Webelos program is a lot of outdoor and boy scout type skills. 90% of Bear leaders are mothers with little or no experience outdoor or scouting experience. The BSA is changing the Tiger program around and putting more responsibility on the parents, but we found even with the help of parents, a Pack have to add several volunteers just to maintain a successful Tiger program. Why is this a big problem, well we found after a lot of interviews that burned out leaders give lousy programs. Even though a family is willing to finish the Cub program, the scout translates his Webelos experience to the future troop experience and uses the crossover as a convenient time to drop out of scouting. Nationally less than 50% of Webelos crossover into troops. We directly correlated around 65% of those drop outs to dens with burned out leaders. You only have to compare the fun dens to the dens with burned out leaders to see the difference. I personally believe that the BSA would see a significant increase in crossovers over five years if they took Tigers out of the Cub program. I know some scouters in other areas who came up with the same conclusion and added if National would move the 2nd year Webelos to the Troop program, it would raise the crossover numbers a lot more. I'm not a sure because I think there is level of maturity gained that last year. Anyway, I hope that explains burn out a little better. Barry

Sometimes we can be too smart for ourselves. I had visited a couple troops that elected SPLs annually instead of biannually. It seem to work well for them because it gave the SPL enough time to get used to the job and still have time to advance the program with their personal ideas. So I proposed the idea to the PLC and they scratched their heads to what the troop would gain. I am usually a pretty good sales man, but they saw the change as more work than gain and said move on. So as you wisely noted, the real differences was how they handled their program within the tradition we were using. I still would have liked to have seen how it worked. LOL Barry

Yep, and that was based from the discussion trend of justifying scheduled conferences and BORs because the adults are too busy during meetings. I was the SM of a big boy run program and we certainly had the time. I wasn't saying your troop should be like ours. Now maybe your troop is struggling for adult time, I stand corrected. But then I would ask, will you change the routine of your conferences and BOR schedules later when the adults have more time? I have never heard that to be a goal in any troop. Same goes with my comments on patience. If teaching scouts the skill of patience is in fact the primary reason for long periods of time between BORs and conferences, then I applaud the attempt toward character growth. But it appeared to me in the discussion to be a disingenious attempt to raise it unworthy to discuss. I'm only saying that I have more respect for "we have always done it this way and see no reason to change" rather than covering our pride with a less truthful reasoning. That is why I said, and still say that we shouldn't feel pressured to make up noble reasons to cover ourselves in subjects that have little consequences to a scouts experience in the program. If you feel that kind of pressure, then something else needs to change. Barry

That' brilliant! Didn't someone else say something like that? OH YES, it was me: "Why can't you just say, "we do it this way because it works for us." ? Does every tradition, process or habit in your unit have to be justified by nobility of the effort? Can't it be justified because it flows well in your program? What next, Thursday Troop meetings are the best because it forces the scout to practice loyalty? Let's step back a little and present some ideas without feeling like we have to defend our reasoning. At least with stuff like this." Barry

Yes, you are right. I was very conscious of the guidelines while trying the idea. But it was important to me at the time that scout responsibilities be pushed as far as it could. I was passionate about scout independence and responsibility at the time. The scouts roles were limited and watched closely. As I said, the real challenge was finding the scouts with the time. I think that, more than the BSA guidelines, is why the experiment faded out. By the way, the DE and District Commissioner knew we were trying it and were guiding us to try and prevent us from stepping out of line. Barry

Until 1990, Webelos Dens crossing over in one big group wasn't common way for scouts to join a troop. Webelos crossed over either by reaching a certain age or when they earned the Webelos rank. The dens depleted one of two scouts at a time, so the numbers worked fine to mix the scouts into existing patrols. Group crossovers were a result of the NSP, not the other way around. Is that what you meant by not adding up? As for Hillcourts quotes, both he and Powell encouraged patrols of friends during a time when friends were commonly defined by local relationships, not age as we discuss it here. I had friends both older and younger than me when I was the scout age. I think parents struggle with that concept today because it is unusual for neighborhood friends to become patrols. That is not to say Powell and Hillcourt wouldn't still encourage groups of Webelos to join a troop together, I'm sure they would. But it is important to understand the context of their quotes and the dynamics of the patrol. Friends joined patrols of existing patrols of friends as they reached the proper age. My dad was a boy scout during WWII and his troop never had more than two new scouts join at a time. Since they hiked everywhere they went, even to campouts, all the scouts lived very close to each other and where neighborhood friends long before they reached the age of scouts. It was a different time. Also, I don't think the quote about frequent shuffling of patrols applies to this discussion. That is different situation. Barry

We tried different approaches to BORs over the years. We found that using parents was a good way for them to get involved enough to see how the program works. The challenge was maintaining a consistency with the quality of the BORs as different parents came and went. We fixed that problem by asking one or two experienced committee members to lead BORs. They had a lot of BOR experience and were trained with the BSA advancement documents. The BOR leaders guided the parents during discussions and helped keep the reviews on track. They basically set the tone for the parents to follow for asking the questions. We had written questions for each rank that we gave the parents so they didn't get too far off with their questions. The BOR leader also knew the appropriate off the cuff questions that could be asked to enhance a scouts review. But the trick with using parents successfully in BORs was using and experienced leader to guide and set the tone of the discussion. We also tried using older scouts in the BOR. It was my attempt to bring in more boy run responsibility for the scouts. We found that having an older scout on the board relaxed the new scouts because the board to them was just a bunch of adult strangers testing their skills. Believe it or not, the challenge was finding enough qualified scouts because they were pretty busy. Barry

I have to agree. This is a strange conversation. I was the SM of a large troop and we do our SM conferences and BOR at the request of scouts. They usually didn't get a conference that day, but they might. Some folks here like to talk the big talk of their boy run or patrol method program, but I wonder sometimes. What takes up so much of your SM's time during a meeting? I had four task during the average Troop meeting: 1. Before the troop meeting I talked with the SPL about the PLC meeting to learn what they desired from the adults. We have a PLC meeting each week before the troop meeting. 2. Scoutmaster conferences and coffee with the adults. Time with the adults was important for me because that is where I talked a lot about the reasoning behind patrol method and why we weren't in the same rooms with the boys. And it also just fun talking about other stuff. 3. Scoutmaster minute at the end of the meeting (SPL only gave me 2 minutes). 4. Listen to the PLC during their post meeting discussion. That was it basically. Oh of course other things popped up like talking to parents, guest, CC on an as need basis, but basically my time during meetings was scoutmaster conferences and coffee and stuff. What do your Scoutmasters do? As for patience, our scouts practice patience full time while doing their scouting stuff. Patience is one of the most practiced skills as a youth leader and is discussed "A Lot" during my conferences and reviews with scouts. To be honest, with all the character traits the scouts' struggle with while making decisions in a boy run program, patience seems like a flimsy excuse for adults to justify a procedure used in their program. Why can't you just say, "we do it this way because it works for us." ? Does every tradition, process or habit in your unit have to be justified by nobility of the effort? Can't it be justified because it flows well in your program? What next, Thursday Troop meetings are the best because it forces the scout to practice loyalty? Let's step back a little and present some ideas without feeling like we have to defend our reasoning. At least with stuff like this. Barry

I'm not a fan of NSPs because they take longer to assimilate scouts into the troop program. NSPs have an advantages in some situations, but In most cases they slow down scout growth. The NSP was added to the program around 1990 in an attempt to lower the dropout rate of first years scouts. More scouts drop out of the BSA during their first year in the than any other year. However, the dropout numbers 15 years later did not show improvement. Which means the assumption of why new scouts quit was wrong. There is nothing wrong with the idea of friends joining the same patrol, but that should not be the primary or overriding motivation to give a scout the best possible opportunity for a successful career in a boy run program. I know our natural parental instinct are that groups of boys who have been together a long time would want to stay together, but my experience is only 1 in 10 groups want that option when presented with other choices. You would be surprised with the number of boys looking to start fresh because their group holds them in place within the hierarchy the group has already established. The first scouts who quit are scouts on the bottom of the hierarchy. And groups that stick together require a lot more outside patrol influence to achieve half the growth. I'm not suggesting troops use one method or the other. Our troop lays out all the options with no hint of bias. It took us awhile to develop a successful new scout program, but I knew we were going the right direction when I got fewer calls from the parents. Barry

I might be excited if they moved the Tigers into this program because that would reduce the workload on the rest of the pack. Sadly they kept the Pack program five years long, which is the main cause of burnout and drop outs. Barry

I have a lot of experience with boy run patrol method scouting and I can say that in all the years you have been on this forum, I think your program is more boy run than some, not as much as others. There are very few topics on this forum that I haven't experienced one way or another, so I can usually pick out posts that aren't quite what the poster claims. But that is OK because most of the time because posters are trying to make a point that would only get lost in details that don't matter to the point and would take up a lot of forum space. BUT when posters feel that have to force their theories by demonizing adults, scouts, and program styles with generalizations and straw men, then the thread has to be brought back to reality. Just because a SM doesn't perform to your idealistic theory doesn't mean they aren't doing the best they can. Who isn't proud of their program after the hard work. These hard working volunteers deserve more appreciation than "smiles and nicely ignores them", and the list here deserves more realistic detail of how to develop such a program without trying to intimidate opinion with generalized statements of adult run. Remember the quote: "I would find the question of whether or not the person is good or bad is not appropriate whereas the idea worked or not for them would be a better evaluation." There are many things you have stated in working with your scouts that I thought were a bit on the adult direct side, but so long as you understand the bigger picture, who cares? Adults work within their knowledge and understanding. If their knowledge and understanding is different than your knowledge and understanding, that doesn't make them bad. Instead, build a trust by passing ideas back and forth. Scouting is hard. It is especially hard for boy run programs because the scouts are more independent in their decisions and adults are by nature parents. The best advice for learning how to work toward a better boy run program is a little humility to listen to other ideas. Barry

Yes, but you have said more than once the SPLs are only used by Scoutmasters who want to control the Patrol leaders program. And you didn't imply it kindly to anybody using an SPL in troops of any size. Attitude of personal opinions is as much adult driving as direct interaction. I had kind of hoped you had moved past that opinion, but I can't tell. And it's too bad, I find helping adults work toward the a boy run patrol method program without pushing my personal idea of using Aims and Methods on them to be very rewarding. Barry

I've done a few ceremonies for all the ranks. I usually pick a theme and then build around it. I did one like you suggest where everyone stood in a circle. The ceremony goes pretty fast because there is no wait for the scouts to walk up to the CM. We use the American Indian theme and I had the scouts cheer, stomp, and clap with the announcement of each scout's name. I can't remember the cheers because that was over 20 years ago, but it was something like "Pride of the wolf!" and "Courage of the Bear!. Or something like that. We had a American Indian parent who after all the awards were given, showed us how to do a real Indian dance and the led everyone in the around the room doing the dance. Even the parents commented how much they enjoyed the ceremony. Really all you need to do is pick a simple theme and build around it. Just keep in mind the more the scouts are moving their feet and hands and the louder they yell, the more fun they are having. Parents and siblings too. Barry

Ah, very good. A quote worth saving for future discussions. So with that in mind, consider that none of the BSA materials or training provide guidance for troops without an SPL. From your post one can conclude that using or not using the SPL successfully in patrol method troops of "any" size depends on whether or not the idea works for the adults of that program. Good discussion. Barry

Yes or no, are adults who don't use the NSP or Venture Patrols bad leaders? Barry

The SM/ASM Fundamentals course does teach about the NSP, Regular patrols and Venture Patrols, they just don't teach it as the only way. Heretic is a name you gave yourself. I'm not sure others would give you that title. Your original stand was the promotion of only aged based and Venture Patrols as compared with the traditional mixed age patrols. You even said once that you were glad that the BSA killed traditional scouting. Lately your hard line has mellowed to consider styles other than yours that fit better with different adult personalities. But even with all the BSA materials and training, I think you can see just from the forum that the BSA program allows a very broad range of styles and ideas that still work within the program model which still works toward the common vision. Barry

Interesting quote. I was thinking of the comments I read a few months ago from a clergyman for one of the US churches that voted to accept a gay clergy and perform gay marriages (I can't remember which one now). He said the US church leaders fully expected the church to grow from the change, but that wasn't happening. He was concerned for the future of the church and wondered if the changes had caused a distrust in the members. I scratch my head trying to understand how any rational person can see growth from splitting the base with a change of doctrine. The organization looses much of the base and all of it's integrity. It seems the Catholic church has some challenges a head with this new Pope. Barry