Eagledad

ONLY ONCE! It is my experience any adult who defies the guideline of only the SM or SPL talking scout business to scouts is on the verge of abuse because they lost control. Our troop has restricted several adults from the scouts after these incidents. I do agree that scouts need to learn to stand up for themselves, but getting scouts to trust that the adults really are giving them the power to lead and manage their troop is a fragile ideal that takes time to develop. Scouts know when they really have the freedom to make their own right and wrong choices. The SM sets the level of respect between the scouts and the adults. When that respect isn't equal, the scouts will always be the boys and the scouters always the adults. Barry

You're just kidding yourself stosh. All troops are designed by the adults, so whether they choose NSPs patrols or traditional mixed patrols, the adults set that style in place. Lets not demonize one style over the other because the adult personalities and situations are very important to the performance of their troop. Are adults of a successful program supposed to change to be politically correct? Better to learn the dynamics of growth from the different styles of patrols so they can be applied appropriately to the circumstances of the environment and characteristics of the adults and scouts in the unit. Barry

Ahhh, needing to be the smartest guy in the room are you? It might have worked except you have been in the same discussions since you join the forum using "traditional patrols" to mean "Mixed aged" as opposed to "aged base" like NSPs. Barry

No it's the same, just a different way of saying it. The reason your scouts use "With all due respect" all the time with no problems is because their Scoutmaster enforces the respect. Barry

Pretty good stuff. However I have never seen "Respectfully, sir, this is a boy's meeting." work very well without the SM having the SPLs back. Adults will give up their pseudo respect the moment they feel the subject of the interruption trumps the kid's junior title. True respect has to be earned even in a boy scout troop and that won't happen without a SM running interference for the SPL. The a Troop is a boy's size experience of the real world. But, the SM has to protect the frail Troop experience from the intrusive blunt real world for a boy to grow. Barry

It can go both ways. Interesting story: We have a Troop in our District that has a tradition for being one of the best troops in our town for over 70 years. Typically Scoutmasters from this troop end up doing great things at the District and Council levels. Typically Scoutmasters from this troop become Silver Beavers. And they deserve it because they are the cream of the crop volunteers. Anyway, this troop had two really really good Scouts who had the talents to run a troop. They were good friends of my son, so I knew them well. The Scoutmaster and ASM who were boy run savvy gave these boys as much rope running the troop as they could handle, and they could handle more than most adults. During their last three years, the ASM took over as the new SM and the two scouts alternated as the SPL position. It was just a title because the two work closely together in running the troop. The Scoutmaster was very capable and respected and became District and Council training course directors during his SM tenure. ALL appeared well from the outside and the Scoutmaster was about to earn his Silver Beaver. The Troop was doing well and doubling in size. Then the two scouts aged out of the troop and left for school in the East. The PLC was without a leader and the SM didn't know how to get younger scouts up to speed. See it wasn't that the SM was a bad leader, he let these two young men run the troop, and run it very well. But what he didn't do was teach these young men about considering the future of the troop after they left. As someone said, it is easier for adults to do the work then to train and teach the scouts. That is exactly what these two scouts did to their troop. They carried the load of running the troop because it was easier than watching the younger scouts struggle to meet their expectations. They didn't see the harm they we doing, but the SM should have. However, he was so busy with his other responsibilities, and the troop was running so well that he neglected to ask a few questions. In one years time, the troop lost a 3rd of the scouts because it stopped functioning. The SM (who is a very fine person) was so embarrassed that he retired as SM and disappeared from scouting. So, it can happen to just about anybody, including one of the best SMs in the district with two of the best scouts in the district. As I got over myself as the district boy run guru, I started to pay more attention to adults than me. You have heard me say before that Scouting is an adult program to help boys become adults. It is not a boys program to be left up to boys. I only have to point out that every time a problem pops up on this forum, it is blamed on the adults. And as a result of some members here pushed it to the point that adults are in general viewed negatively. It is a ridiculous assessment of our wonderful program because adults are critical to the success of the program. But, it is also true that a troop is only as good as the adults running it. And the adults are only as good as their experience and training. As a result of my experience in scouting, I know that one person can influence big changes. But for those changes to have a positive lasting impression, they have to work within the mentality of the average volunteer. That is why I harp on not building a program that is counter to the BSA materials. How can the average person do at least the minimum average performance if they have no resources to go from? Blow hard adults who think think themselves as modern day Badon Powels are more often than not wrecking balls. I learned from a smart CEO that there are some basics to building success; 1. Have a vision or goal. 2. Have a basic plan toward that vision, 3. Have a team that believes in the vision and the plan. Once you get those basics, you can move mountains. In your case Eagle94, your troop has none of the three. Actually Blws problem is harder because he is in a successful program. The problem is the program vision isn't what he or his son want. A lot of folks here want to put down those adults, but really the problem is blws. Not that he can't make changes within the program, he sure can. But it will be a tough road. I like the idea of starting small. All this to say that you are going to have to learn how to be a better cat herder. You have good vision and method. Now you need to work on your sales skills so you can build the team. Get that team, and your wife will come over to your troop in a heartbeat. Barry

Great idea Matt. I always like patrols that take on an individual personality. More adventure, better cooking, better skills, camps more, or even dress a little different. Whatever they become, it sets them apart and many times admired by the other scouts, which may encourage other patrols to follow. Barry

Well this is one of the few times you and I disagree. My observation is the adults who had a scouting experience as a youth are better leaders than the adult who don't because they are just doing what they know. The adults who don't have that experience aren't lazy, they just do only what they know. That is not always the case, but in general adults have good intentions. The difference between fair programs and good programs comes down more to "passion" in my opinion. How many adults are volunteering in the BSA? How many adults are members of the forum? It's fair to say that most members of the forum have the passion. Do the main leaders of this troop have passion? My wife has passion for yard work. She loves to get her hands in soil and make things grow. I don't have that passion. My passion is riding machines that require gasoline, so I would rather mow the grass. And I do a good job mowing the grass. My planting lacks enthusiasm and it shows. As a boy run purist, I used to think just like TAHAWK about no harm programs, but I don't now. While I was a SM, my impressions of adult run programs was they do more harm than good. I gave those adults very little respect for their time. But when I was the Council Junior Leadership Development Chairman, I got to work close with older scouts (17 to 20 year olds) from the those programs and I became very impressed. I do agree with TAHAWK that the BSA does a terrible job teaching patrol method. As a Council and District volunteer spending many hours working to help units improve, I started to understand that maybe 10 percent of adults in the pool of volunteers have all the qualities required to create and manage the kind of perfect programs members of this forum keep preaching about. So, if I can still get at least 70% of those other adults to produce good scouts from a "no harm" program, I'm good with that. I can either work with them, or against them. I tried both and the program was much more productive when I worked with them. Barry

The sheep are scattered because the dog is missing. The adults are trying to work it out, but without the SM giving some direction, all the troop has is chiefs with no indians. We don't know the personalities of all the players here, but this is looking like a UC, CO, CC problem to me. I think the troop has good well intentioned adults willing to make the program go. But without a vision and plan, I can't see how it can get much better. Barry

Four of the Packs are Jansport Rainiers. The picture was taken in 1998 at about 11,000 ft in the Pecos Wilderness, New Mexico. The boys were 14 on that trek, but most of them were still using those same Rainiers on their Philmont trek three years later. They had several hundred miles on them by that time. The adult taking the picture is also wearing a Jansport Rainier. The little guy on the right is my older son who did eventually grow into the pack. He was the only person who weighed less than 100 lbs (89 lbs). He had strong legs and never once complained about carrying his share of food and gear. Barry

That is the pack we recommend for scouts in our troop. I've got two or three in my attic that have logged thousands of miles from my sons. Jansport also makes (or made) a slightly smaller model for boys less than 100lbs (older son was a 112 senior) . I didn't know Jansport still made them. The are easy to adjust for scouts as they grow, they hold a lot and they are open back panels. Great packs. When the scouts out grew them, they would sell them to new scouts for nearly nothing. Jansport used to give discounts to scouts. Things may have changed. You will love that pack. Barry

Any adult suggesting a scout use a pack without a hip belt should be reported for abuse. Our troop even back in the 60's was attaching surplus army web belts to our packs. Barry

We also advice back panel openings as well for people new to backpacking because they are just easier to access gear with the packs in a tent. I think they are good packs to start with and learn how to pack. But our troop is a backpacking troop and we started using tents that don't have room for the packs. We learned and got used to packing most of our clothing gear in gallon freezer bags. They actually make it easier to pack a pack. After the tents are set up, we pull out the freezer bags and throw them in the tent. we leave our packs and patrol gear outside with the rain cover to protect them. Top loads aren't such a big deal then. Barry

There are some basics for selecting packs: 1. People tend to fill a pack, no matter the activity. My first pack was a huge 80 ci and I could never end my trips with less than 50lbs. Sometimes 65 lbs or more. Everything fit in that pack. My next pack was 48 ci and my typical loads drop between 40 to 45 lbs max. now I'm talking Boy Scout trips, my pack on personal trips was closer to 30 lbs. By going smaller fit, I was forced to say no. 2. Internal frame packs require some organization where external frames can be packed more hap hazard. In general external frame packs are easier and faster to access. Think setting up camp in heaven thunder storm; if the tent was at the bottom of the internal frame pack, EVERYTHING will get wet. Packing an internal frame pack requires some thought. For scouts and scouters with little backing experience, I typically suggest using an external frame pack until they have some experience. 3.The key to comfortable backbacking is understanding how to adjust the pack. Externals are typically easier to adjust and repair quickly in the field. And, many internals need some custom fitting at the store. Most externals have a lot of adjustability for different body size. Internals are typically built for specific sizes and have less adjustiblity. As for a pack to fit the activity, there was a time I averaged 65 nights a year camping. I eventually went to duffle bags on none hiking camp outs and save the pack for treks. Believe or not, duffles are easier to pack and carry for most non hiking outings. As a scoutmaster and training corrdenator coordinator, I took as many duffles as I needed for my gear. Duffles take up less space for travel and tents. Packs are expensive and can be broken if not stored correctly during travel. Duffles are cheap and hold up to years of abuse. I use duffles even now for my business and vacation travels. Barry

We had a couple of scouts get the award. It is not an easy award to get; National is very picky who they honor. That being said, I personally would submit a request for everyone involved. Then wait for National to set limits and ask the questions. The process can take awhile, maybe a couple years. So give it a shot and get started. And a good well done from the Scouter.com forum. Barry

To expand on stosh's comment, older scouts don't mind working with younger scouts, they just get tired of doing the same-old-thing. The same-old-thing being doing advancement and scout skills activities repeatedly instead of adventure. The instinct of older scouts is emulating what they learned while they were a younger scouts. If a scout learned to "take care of your boys" while they were younger scouts, they don't stop that habit when they are older. If an older scout isn't taking care of the younger scouts, then they never learned it. That is a SM problem. So if a scout who learned to take care of his boys young is bored, then the program has not matured enough to challenge the his older scout maturity. And stosh is right that older scouts want adventure, but so do the younger scouts. In fact this likely could be the problem. If older scouts are needing adventure to stay interested, then likely the younger scout program (whole program) is boring due to lack of adventure. The older scouts are bored because they don't have enough responsibility of the troop to keep them challenged. Desire to continue a program comes from the satisfaction of conquering previous challenges. All that to say that scouts need adventure to practice their scout skills and decision making skills. As I said, cooking in of itself is challenging, but the scouts will master that fairly quickly. Add some quick hikes, fishing, biking and canoeing. Most of that can be done at you local scout camp. Be creative, stop a mile before you get to camp next time and hike the troop to the campsite. Or hike out the last day. Add a simulated car wreck along the way where the older scouts are using makeup to simulate injuries. Adventure. Like stosh says, older scouts are adults. They need adult stimulation that challenges them to grow. I look forward to watching you grow. Barry

I get it, you program has been whittled to perfection. I can't even think of a good reason for a program like yours to need a BOR. Can you? This reminds me of an interview of a CEO for a very successful company. The interviewer asked for the CEO's secret to their success. The CEO said "to do everything perfectly". He was asked "How do you get to this perfection?". "By changing those things that aren't perfect", he said. Is your program perfect? Oh no, nothing is perfect. I applaud your program that every attempt has been made for scouts to be prepared for the BOR. I really do. I would like to see your troop in action. But I think your troop has lost understanding for the purpose of the Troop BOR and I hope your adults humility is equal to your confidence. Barry

We even had a patrol of one on one campout. He got a cheering ovation from the troop at the end of the campout. The task for cooking meals is a group activity and is one of the better team building exercises a patrol can do, no matter how many are involved. But as is being pointed out, that your older scouts are finding reasons not to participate shows a bigger problem with the program. You will get a lot of advice for working toward that problem, but just going to a standard policy of patrol cooking is a good start. Barry

Who interprets the standard? So you think the SM is never wrong. That is a very dangerous prideful attitude. You must feel the BOR is a waste of time. BORs used to be done by the Scouts. Why do you think the BSA changed the policy? Barry

Gumbymaster and Sentinel have good advice for encouraging change. But is change really needed in your troop? I have worked with a lot of programs and the first question I always ask both here on the forum and in my district is: "What do you want your scouts to get that they aren't already getting in your program?". The motivation for change really hinges on that answer. Your troop seems to be providing the expectations that apparently most families in it want. Would they want what you think the scouts are missing? That is if you can figure out what the scouts are missing. Most true boy run programs come from adults who took over poor programs or started new programs. Very rarely do successful programs invite change. I can give you all the great noble reasons for changing a program toward a more boy run patrol method program provides, but some folks are satisfied with their present program. Work slowly as Gumbymaster and Sentinel suggested and measure the progress and acceptance for your troop. Barry

Again, what if you are wrong? Do you get to leave the room without a word from them? As the SM, I have been in several meetings with the BOR after a review with a scout and sometimes the SM needs to rethink their part in the process. In a troop were the adults are trained and understand their responsibilities, the scoutmaster might need to change something. Think of the BOR and SM as a team, not adversaries. And sometimes the situation isn't caused by something faulty in the program, it is just and unusual situation that requires getting heads together to find a creative solution for the best interest of the scout. Mentally challenged scouts or scouts who transferred from other troops come to mind. Barry

Then who checks on the SM? What if the SM is doing it wrong? I'm guessing what you were trying to say is that if the BOR doesn't give the Scout the required signatures, the adults should call a meeting to understand the problem and figure out how to fix the problem and change something to prevent it from happening again. There is nothing wrong with BOR when used correctly. A good SM respects the BORs responsibility and is eager to hear what the board has learned from the scout. In fact, a good SM will grow into a better SM from a good BOR. A proud SM who dismisses the BOR's value or considers the board members beneath the SM's position is dangerous and sets a bad example for the Scouts. It doesn't matter how well the SM presents a patrol method program, a troop with that SM is an adult driven program. Clearly the adults in the OPs troop needs some training. Barry

My apologies to the mods that this response really belongs in the Uniform Forum. I will gladly accept any action you decide appropriate for my post. Over the years as a adult leader instructor, I've experienced two subjects that seem to challenge adult leaders more than any other subject, including patrol method. Those two subjects are discipline and uniform. They raise above just about anything else in the normal scouting environment because adults approach them from the emotional perspective and emotion is a strong force to change. In the case of the uniform, I find adults stumble around the subject just as I see stosh stumbling around. Stosh suggest that a scout will learn to respect the uniform by the respect he receives from others around him. And yet Stosh is quick to discount guidance or the Scoutmaster's respect, the one person who just have some insight to understanding of the subject. I select stosh only because his post is representative of 99% of scouters in the BSA. Part of the reason we struggle with the uniform is because the BSA tells us that it is one of the Eight most important methods or applications a boy uses to grow into a man. And yet, they come right back and say "but it is not required. Well, that's interesting. Another reason adults struggle with the uniform is because most have an emotional relationship with it. Some adults believe by it because of their experience in the military, law enforcement, sports or whatever. Other adults have negative view of the uniform and are quite happy to let that part of the paramilitary program go. I had once such ASM who was involved in campus anti-authority protest back in the 60s. As I have said in my Scout Spirit post, units tend to follow the Scoutmaster's approach of the uniform. Which is fine except the reasoning behind the Scoutmasters approach doesn't always make sense among outsiders. Consider stosh who doesn't require his scouts to wear the uniform or wear it correctly. Yet his next sentence is a warning that if a scout does chose to wear the uniform, he better wear it correctly. I'm sure that makes sense in stosh's mind, but those of us on the outside (at least me) is scratching our heads. But as I said, just about all of us struggle with how to use the uniform method. It's hard to tell in his post, but I think stosh is correct in that he is trying to give the scout the responsibility for justifying his decision. But where we adults struggle in giving scouts credit for ambiguous decisions is the lack of reference for making a "correct" choice. Stosh like to suggest the adults stay out of it. Fine, but scouts then miss out from wisdom that gives them some sense of direction. Freedom and independence can be harmful just as harmful as strict direction when ignorance sends a scout the wrong direction. Without trying to guide leaders to how I use the uniform in our troop when I am a SM, I try to pull them back some from their emotional tie with THE Uniform dress and instead consider how to use the Method as working toward the 3 Aims (Character, fitness and citizenship). I also try to encourage adults look at these things from a boy perspective in an attempt to sway them away from nebulous or vague objectives like a scouts learning to respect the BSA by simply wearing the uniform. If a scout doesn't like camping, the uniform isn't going to change that. On the other side, there is the reference that stosh points out that if a scout wants some respect from scout outside the troop, the uniform itself does have some power of influence. What I think Stosh was trying to say is that development of character comes best when a scout rationalizes changing character habits by the experiences of previous decisions. My only advice is that the Scoutmaster should have an opinion so give scouts a starting place or reference to consider and compare against or with their own reasoning. In fact, I think scouts want an opinion from the Scoutmaster, even if they disagree with it. The uniform IS one of the Eight Methods for developing boys into men of character. I wish the BSA hadn't said scouts don't have to wear the uniform because that guidance is subversive to the power of using the other methods to toward the Three Aims. If scouts don't have to wear the uniform, do they really have to use the patrol method? And, quite honestly there is growth in trying to justify cost of uniforming instead of just letting scouts off the hook completely. I have seen scouts use the cost issue dishonestly (wrong choice) to justify not wearing the uniform. And yet, the Scout Handbook used to be clear on how a scout should dress for specific scouting activities. Has that changed? I would enjoy a discussion of why each of us think the uniform benefits the scouts. Like stosh, I like each individual scout to make that choice based on his personal experience and reasoning. Some scoutmasters don't trust giving scouts that independence and it is too bad. I said before that I have yet to observe a perfectly well dressed truly boy run troop. But doesn't mean the troop doesn't have guidelines and expectations, mine certainly does. It just means the scouts are given the time, responsibility and mentoring to figure it out. Just like with the other 7 methods. Sorry to go off on a different rabbit trail. Mods, its all yours. Barry

I truly believe that what you just wrote makes complete sense to you. But it's kind of like some of these leadership threads that get started, it seems the author has the subject fully formulated and understood in their mind, but it comes out abstract to everyone else. That being said, I don't disagree with you in general, I'm an engineer and we like things nice neat and tidy. We like objective input with objective results. However, everything about Scout Spirit is subjective. As I said, objective judgement of Scout Spirit is different for every unit because every Scoutmaster has a different objective perspective of a Scouting Spirit. It is much easier to teach Scoutmasters to hold everyone in the troop accountable to their specific objective standard than to come up with a formula to force adults of all units to look at Scout Spirit the same objectively. These discussions come up because two adults in the same unit disagree, not because a adult and scout disagree. And most of the time, one adult has an agenda other than the good of the scout. National gets challenges from Eagle Scout candidates all the time who feel they are being unfairly held back with the Scout Spirit requirement. I have yet to hear of one case where the scout lost simply because because it is so subjective. But the flaw of your thinking is that most adults, including you and me, think our opinions of Scout Spirit are objective, not subjective. We have to think that way because we otherwise could not guide a scout to his character growth. EVEN THOUGH we want the scout to find his character habits from his reasoning as a result of his experiences, there has to be some kind of compass for "taking care of your scout" to focus on a direction of expectation. Do you see what I mean? It's only when the adult tries to take the independent decision making away from the scout that trouble happens. Scout Spirit takes a lot of hits when an adult has issue with a scout's advancement, but if National somehow miraculously fix the scout spirit to everyone's agreement, the same adult bent on slowing the scout down will still find another obstacle. Scouts Spirit isn't the problem, the adult is typically the problem. I mean really, "uniform"? Don't blame Scout Spirit for that reach. Barry

Wow! Moving on, scout spirit is not typically a problem between the adults and scouts because as Calico pointed out, most scouts will not stand up to adults. These discussions come up because of disagreements between adults. Stosh, you haven't had any problems because you don't even allow other adults to disagree with you in your small troops. And it's not just stosh, the measurement of Scout Spirit in "every unit" is defined by the adults, typically the Scoutmaster. Which is why objective definitions change from unit to unit. The better troops set that standard on the adults equally to the scouts. You don't usually hear of many Scout Spirit issues in those units because everyone pretty much knows the definition of good behavior. It's the units where Scout Spirit expectation isn't enforced equally among the adults and scouts that problems arise. As I said, between the adults. That is not to say that the OP isn't right here, but the real issue is the unfairness of the CC who appears to have a different definition of Scout Spirit, at least with the OP. I think Eagle94 said it best, this issue is just a sign of deeper problems for this unit. Is the CC supposed to question the Scoutmaster's call on Scout Spirit? Is he really supposed to hold him back in this situation? And Stosh, Calico or anybody else who thinks the problem goes away just by letting the scout define Scout Spirit, lets see how you respond to a scout who believes that hostel threats toward other scouts are acceptable within Scout Spirit. Not an easy situation but our troop dealt with it by getting the parents involved. But what of a scout who disagrees with Stosh of Calico on the minimum expectation of scout spirit? You would be surprised on what folks consider bullying. Adults usually get their way with disagreement between adults and scouts. I agree with stosh that scouts must be allowed to learn and growth by their own actions in the program. But somebody has to set the standard of expectations and even draw the line on a minimum expectation. That is supposed to be the SM. Sadly sometimes Scoutmasters are terrible examples and problems occur. But anyone who believes that the adults aren't part of the process of setting the expectation of scout spirit aren't understanding human behavior or the key component of role modeling in the scouting program. Whether you like it or not, scouts imitate the adults, even from 300 ft away. You don't believe it, start watching other units at summer camp next year. In this case, the CC is out of line in several ways. Not only is he not supposed to really be the passing judge of Scout Spirit, the CC isn't supposed to regulate the speed at which a scout advances. As Eagle94 said, there are other problems here. Barry