Eagledad

I was also the staffer (ASM) at Woodbadge who approved ticket items. You need to have a clear explanation of when each ticket item is finished. Like the end of the first course. Or 3 courses. Or whatever. The shorter, the better.

A committee member in our troop was frustrated by the counselor misinformation throughout the district, so she created a course for counselors the scouts in our troop were using. The course was so successful that district asked her to teach one course each year. Well they wanted more courses, she said only one. She started the course teaching the Aims, Methods and Mission before moving on to the rest of the training. She would answer many of the participants questions by referring to the Aims, Methods and Mission so that they would not get side tracked on advancement as the primary goal. That was 15 years ago, so I don't know what District is doing now. But I would say it's a worth while ticket item depending on how you plan to repeat the course. What would you consider to be the completion of the ticket item? Barry

I kind of agree. I liked the Venturing program because it was, in my opinion, an appropriate time to mix the two genders. Before puberty, youth learn best by observing same gender role models. Mixing the genders only confuses the possible growth. But after puberty, after the youth set their basic behavior habits, mixed genders add to the gains of the possible growth from the more mature program. Now that the program is mixed in the younger ages, the advantage of growth at the troop age has been negated. On the flip side of your thoughts, the most successful Venturing Crews in our area are the ones that specialize in non scouting related activities like: Law Inforcement, Medical, Aviation, Scuba and others that I forgetting. The least successful are the Venturing Crews created by troops to extend their older scout programs (actually to save their older scout programs). My guess is that whatever membership trend follows these new changes will have the same affect on Venturing. Barry

That is very cool. AS we've come t know you on this forum, I would say the gift represents your passion and contributions to the program. I met a SM who met him on a Philmont trail while backpacking. He can't talk enough about Bill and how his encounter inspired him to become a SM. Barry

This is the standard opinion of most scout leaders in the BSA program, and I cringe every time I hear it. When I was the district membership adviser and SM trainer, I taught troop and crew leaders that program is the attraction, or detraction, for older scouts. And, the older scout program is the performance indicator of the "whole" troop program. If the average age of your older scouts is 14-15, your program isn't very good for the younger scouts either. And directing the program toward advancement is a sure killer of a successful adventure program. My experience is troops that focus on advancement for the younger scouts will loose their older scouts to outside programs with more mature mentally and physically challenging activities. Some will go to OA, Venturing Crews, sports, band, and even chess club, depending on how the maturity of those activities are compared to the troop. Venturing is more successful when the program is viewed by it's adults as another adventure scouting program, not as the next step (or higher step) in the BSA ladder. Barry

“”I'm still struggling with the "masculinity" part of the equation. For starters, I never felt like cultivating masculinity was ever a keystone of Scouting. The whole "turning boys into men" thing, I know that's the ultimate goal of Scouting for some folks here, but officially it's leadership training and character development, as it has been for ages. Two things that are gender-neutral and not dependent on masculinity to achieve. “” This was the first mention of masculinity as a scouting goal. It fueled any following post that referenced masculinity as a goal. You have been clear through several discussions that you don’t believe a gender specific program provides an advantage for a scout’s growth. Some topics appear to trigger (emotional?) responses that apparently are intended for balance. However there is a difference between “agreeing to disagree” and “changing the tone of a discussion”. Barry

I’m wondering if you are confusing discussions because I’m not seeing posts showing concern with loosing masculinity of the program as a result of girls until you mistakenly refered to masculinity as a program goal. Where did that come from? Barry

You are lucky, my wife assumes I can read her mind. Barry

Cocomax has a good grasp of the intended context of this subject. The intent isn't to change a boys masculinity, but instead to give him and environment where he learns how control his masculinity within the boundaries of the Scout Oath and Law by making multiple decisions. Some here believe that everyone is from Venus and nobody is from Mars. But the context of the this discussion assumes that boys and girls are different. The objective is to help boys learn how to control their behavior when they are mixed in within the chaos of different behaviors, lifestyles and ideals of the world. Anyone who has been a coach for 14 year old sports teams of both genders understands how much their biological changes effect their behaviors, and how differently effects are between the two genders. So, keeping the genders independent in the program during this stage in their life helps make the task of building boys into men, or girls into women, less challenging. Of course there are those who disagree, but this thread isn't about the debate, those who disagree with the article or how the article fits within the context of the scout program can certainly start another discussion for balance. As many here are saying, the outdoor program and the patrol method provide plenty of challenges that forces a boy to see his limitations of behavior and the changes required to stay within the limits of the Scout Oath and Law. Stick with the basic patrol method outdoor program that gives scouts the independence to makes decisions and measure the consequences against the law and oath, and your program is good to go. I also agree that women leaders in general behave differently toward leadership in this program than men. But without defining the differences (because it's not important), we should understand that biological nature (instinct) at this age drives youth to learn faster from observing role models of their own gender. That can be a challenge for a unit, so we just do the best we can with the resources provided to us. But, that biological drive is the only reason why I prefer the SM be of the same gender of the scouts when ever possible. Barry

Read the article for context of the subject. Barry

I'll ask the same question that was asked during the gay scout debate, if everyone is living the Scout Law and Oath to the fullest, how can they be disrespectful? Barry

After rereading my post, I can see where the word "failure" might come off a bit blunt and ambiguous. We could call the failure, "struggle", instead so as to understand the point better. So let me give a small example of a programmed structure with the purpose of failure (struggle) as a teaching partner. "Time" is a great teacher of failure. In the early years, most troops planned their program activities around an agenda. Meeting starts at 7:00. Patrol Corners from 7:13 to 7:40. Program 7:43 to 8:20. Closing 8:23 to 8:30. If the scouts fail anywhere in the schedule, they leave the meeting late. Not a huge deal in the scout world, but the PARENTS are a different story. If late meetings occur often enough, the parents will inflict enough pain to drive change for better performance. Our troop has a 45 minute PLC meeting before every Troop meeting. It didn't take the SPL very long to insure the PLC meeting was over in time to start the Troop meeting on time. One thing that impresses a lot of scouter visiters from other units is that our troop meetings start on time. One scouter asked how we did it. He said the adults spend 20 herding the scouts around just to get the meeting started. I told him the adults aren't even in the room when the scouts are getting ready to start. In fact, the SPL disciplined the SM (me) once for being late. The SPL has a timed schedule he is driven to follow. It's not instant, but like a small slow stream that shapes rocks, time will shape the scouts to change to be more efficient. Same goes on campouts. Have the PLC make an agenda for the whole weekend that forces the patrols to perform their activities within a time schedule. While I was SM, the SPL would send me their agenda the night before the campout for the adults. The adults don't start any activity, we just follow the agenda. Sometimes the adults are at the designated activity area before the scouts, wasting the adults time, which the SM will certainly inform the SPL, painfully. Time is a very powerful teacher. Barry

Problem with most bylaws is that they are usually adult rules forced on scouts without the scouts consideration. Your bylaw is an adult rule forced on adults. I am OK with that. In the big picture, adults don't trust scouts because they don't like failure. Failure in the adult world is a ding against pride and stature. In my Scoutmaster Specific class, I taught that not only is failure OK, but the more scouts fail, they more and faster they grow and mature. Adults need to learn how to embrace failure as a teaching partner. I also taught that if the scouts don't seek help or advice from the adults, they will likely not learn from any advice "volunteered" by adults. Failure is painful. Pain from failure is good because it drives the scout to seek (learn) a change that will ease the pain. Adults need to build a culture of developing the program to embrace failure and to wait patiently for the scouts to seek help and advice. When the scout wants to ease the pain of failure, he is very willing to seek a change. Barry

Personally I think the I&P section is healthy, especially during these times. It is intended to be a safe place to learn and understand how others think differently. I think one reason other threads aren't as active is because new members feel some hostility in the answers to their questions. So, they don't hang around. I'm sure I'm part of the problem also. Where the I&P goes off track is when posts get personal forcing additional responses to defend or equalize the offending post. Still, I think the positives outweigh the negatives. I would love to experiment one thread with a rule that each poster only gets one post to express their opinion, and then see how the discussion tracks. I really have no idea, but it would be a fun experiment. Barry

It's not so much orchestrating the game differently, but allowing the freedom to experiment with decisions without interference of girls. I know from experience that the choices youth make will very greatly depending whether the opposite sex is within the vicinity. How many of us have watch our own children change their demeanor in some of the activities when we as their parents got near them? Same goes with Girl Scouts. Barry

Has any boy of the scout age ever felt they needed more character? Scouting is an adult program designed to develop boys into men of character (A game with a purpose). The attraction for boys is the adventure. The exhilaration of experiencing the independence for making responsible decisions is what keeps them in the program after the exhilaration of adventure becomes balanced with normality. Barry

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/455874/toxic-masculinity-myth-fuels-culture-wars Yah, I change the title just a bit. But the article described, at least to me, exactly what has been going on in the BSA for the last 15 years. For many of us, Boy Scouts is where a boy becomes a man of character. A man proud to be a husband, father, civic leader and a moral role model. It wasn't a boys club where male boys huddled together conspiring to bring out the worst of humanism, just as some here still believe. Scouting is a culture that challenges the masculinity of young men so that they can learn how to shape themselves into citizens of character and leaders of integrity. Scouting is a culture where young adult males find the limits of their character without the interference of guilt to prevent the lesson of learning their role in the community. Scouting was a safe place where a boy could face the limitations of maleness in a complex world without feeling guilty. It's not an anti female culture. Quite the contrary, the scout program is a pro equal culture program. It just does it by taking out out the static of multi-humanist biases and opinions until each scout can sort our their deficiencies in practicing the Scout Law and Oath, and then make a conscious change to better themselves for their future in the community. I am a full believer in building ethical and moral decision makers. I've been in the middle of the BSA cultural discussions about as long as they have been on Scouter.com. So, I know the debates. I laugh because I remember when 90 percent of the discussions on Scouter.com were in the "Patrol Method", "Cub Scouts", "Advancement", "Camping", and "Open Discussion" forums. Those were the good ol days of discussing scouting stuff. We haven't seen that in a while. I think this article describes the Scouting Cultural divide very well. I don't expect anything to change. But I think the article helps explains why some of us scouters believe the traditional program has a more positive influence on the community than this new program that is just turning into another after school youth program. Enjoy. Barry

I agree with everything said here. However, I found that messing with units at the top of their game rarely brings more success. Instead, and I pushed this to our district and council, learn what makes the unit a success and give their tips to other units. Over the years I found that district and council leaders don't always understand why particular units standout, so their advice is most often out of place. Our troop grew to have the largest group of scouts between the ages of 14 thru 17 in the council. Council's response to us was to start a Venture Crew to split off some of the scouts. What we had to explain to them that the older scouts are the heart of the program and the reason for the success of the "whole" troop. Not that we didn't encourage adventure, we average 4 to 6 adventure treks a year. We supported and encouraged any scout who wanted to join a Venture Crew outside of the troop. But we were not going to upset the format of the program that made us successful. Barry

Council has a different motivation for the split. Your packs success comes from a unique set of adults working together. Very rarely does that success continue with both units after a split. Save yourselves the hassle and risk by just continuing what you’re doing. Barry

Been there and done that. We split our pack at 150 Scouts. It wasn’t do to lack of quality. In fact, because Cubs is run by adults, it isn’t like the troop program. Typically the bigger the pack, the better the program. Our pack split because a few self serving adults wanted to be in charge of something in their life. And as it tuned out for them, they were terrible. The council supported and even pushed the split because they said it would be better for the boys. But they had a reputation for creating new units even when it wasn’t in the cub family’s best interest. Professionals get bonuses from numbers. Over the years I observed that usually one unit of a split continues to perform well and the other eventually merges back or just dies. That is true for both packs and troops. Based from my personal experience at the unit level and at the district level, don’t split. Enjoy the the success and plan a head for future growth by recruiting more leaders. Be the pack other packs envy. Be a model of success. Barry

I've never seen one on line and the BSA may have come out with a new one since the one our troop used thru 2005. But, I really believe that if the SM and the PLC worked together building their program from the SPL and PL, they will have a solid foundation for a patrol method program. In fact, I suggested the participants of my SM Specific class bring the SPL Handbook, so I could show them how much of the SM Handbook is in that book. Rare is the person who has read the whole gazillion pages of the SM Handbook. But SPL Handbook was written at the 12 year old level and can be read cover to cover in 45 minutes. These handbooks aren't full instructional guides to building a full program, but if used correctly, they simplify the basic of the program so that scouts can run the troop with less interference from the adults. My wife doesn't know this, but I bought and handed out dozens of copies of the SPL and PL Handbook to new Scoutmasters to give them a jump start toward a simple boy run patrol method program. Barry

I am sure we are NOT talking about the same book. The SPL Handbook doesn't talk about games, program themes, or activity details. The only meeting guide is the PLC Meeting guide, which as I pointed out, is four lines in the book and nothing to do with Troop Meetings. It is a guide for the SPLs responsibilities, not troop activities. It's probably 40 pages and designed to fit in the pant pocket. Between using the PLs Handbook and the SPL Handbook, most groups of boys could organize the general operations of their troop. Neither books are activities specific guides. Barry

Well, for me, it means if the boys don't use the books, somebody has to tell them and that is usually the adults. Barry

SPL “Hand”book? There is only one meeting plan that goes something like: Officer reports Patrol Leader Reports Old Business New Business Are you sure we are talking about the same thing? Barry

Teaching scouts how to run productive meetings is one of the most common weaknesses I have observed of troop leaders over the years. The SPL Handbook gives an example of how to conduct a meeting, but very few troops use the handbook. The problem with district and council JLT courses is, if the troop adults don’t know what the courses teach, rarely do the scouts bring anything back to the program. It’s not that the adults don’t support their scout’s training, they just don’t know how to let the scout mix what he just learned into the program. I really believe the best way to get the most impact from Junior Leadership courses is send the adults through them. Barry