Eagledad

Wow, Eagle94, I could not have posted a better response. Very well done. I've posted this story before; we had a mother dragged into our troop by her son who would not join any other troop. She had him visit our troop 5 times hoping that he would see that the well uniformed Eagle Mill down the street was a much better fit than our ragtag disorganized patrol method program. Our families are friends (and still so today 20 years later), so I felt for her struggle and left her alone during her visits. Her son joined and she reluctantly followed, but she kept her distance from the adults as she attended all the activities. Mom is a type A personality doer and she wasn't going to let go now. She even set up her tent by herself away from the adult camp site, I think it was her way of saying "I am not part of "them". But something happened at summer camp during a quiet morning while she was reading in her tent. There were only two of scouts in camp because the rest were out doing scouting stuff. One scout sitting at a picnic table near the moms tent was a new scout reading his up on skills in his handbook. A 14 year old scout from a different patrol on the opposite side of the camp site walked over and asked the new scout what he was studying. He really didn't even give the new scout time to answer before he grab the book and started teaching the new scout the skills. This mother was floored, as she put it when she was telling me the story that led to her conversion. An older scout, a stranger to the new scout, just walked up and offered to help. It was a simple jester to most of us scouters, but the unsolicited unselfish action some how put everything about the troop program in context. She told me, "I pushed my son into scouts to get him an Eagle, but I now realize that scouting isn't about the Eagle". She still didn't understand how patrol method worked, but she and I spent a lot of time at campfires the next couple of years talking about. She became obsessed with "patrol method" and took it on herself to visit Webelos leaders to sell them on our program. She wrote a detailed Troop Parents Guide that explained the hows and whys our troop functioned. It took her months and she had me review it dozens of times to make sure it was exactly what new parents needed to understand our troop. Yep, she referred her sons embarrassing ragtag disorganize program as "our" troop. She eventually became our CC because she wanted to guard the program from helicopter parents. Only we didn't call them helicopter parents back them. All three of her son Eagled in our troop. Of course she will tell you it wasn't about the Eagle. But, she is still a Type A mother who wasn't going to let such an honor slip away from her sons. Nobody is perfect. Eagle94, in his great wisdom, asked the right questions. What is patrol method? Why is it so important? Barry

Yes, exactly. What we found is the troops would attend the MBC and the scouts would come home with a hand full of MBs. That was easy, a lot easier than managing a program where scouts searched for a counselor, called the counselor, filled out the Blue Card and got the SM signature, and then set up a series of meetings with the counselor. Taking a path of least resistance, the adults got in the habit of letting the MBCs and summer camp do the hard work. IN THE PROCESS of going this route, scouts didn't learn how to search for counselors, didn't learn how to communicate with the counselors and didn't learn how to set up meetings. They didn't even know how to fill out Blue Cards. Actually our council doesn't use Blue Cards, we use a different card that only requires the SM signature before the scout starts meeting the counselor. That was how I learned the units weren't doing their job. The SMs had developed the habit of signing the cards after the scout completed the MB requirements. They were doing the whole MB program Wrong. So I approached the committee. It was the District MBC example that led the troops off into the weeds. I felt the district needed to fix the problem. But MBC is very popular, as you can imagine by 2/3s needing it for their advancement. I lost. Barry

I'm not sure when the trend started. MBUs didn't exist in the 70's when I was a scout, and they were running full speed in the 90's when I came back as a scouter. I don't think National started the trend, so I'm at a loss. I would say it fits in with the helicopter parent environment of todays generation, but we really didn't have the problem in the 80's and 90's. I fought against them while I was on the district committee because not only do they go against the program structure of developing men of character, they also develop bad habits in troops. I learned that 2/3s of the troops in our district provide only two MB opportunities each year, summer camp and MBU. I tried to bulk that trend in our district committee and was asked to stand down. The committee didn't agree with my big picture analogy. Barry

WB was never intended to be a leadership course. The course was always intended to be an adult troop leader skills tune up course for "experienced" scouters. Problems occurred when the course staffs allowed the perception to become a leadership development course. Eventually the course marketing morphed into a leadership course, but the syllabus was never changed to reflect leadership development. The original intention of the new course (WBIII?) was neither a leadership nor management course. It was supposed to be a team building and team management course. Most unit problems are the result of unit staffs not understanding the unit goals of the BSA as well as the duties for specific positions. So, the course pushed participants to understand the goals and objectives all the way from the BSA Mission and Vision down to expectations of each volunteer. It also spent time in managing the team to become efficient and productive. The hope was the scouts would get a better experience from adults who stayed within the boundaries of their understood goals. But, reputation of the old course and the desires of new adult leaders have kind of morphed it into nothing really specific at all now. Where I believe National failed is by giving this course the Wood Badge title. Nothing about it reflects the old WB design, but National tried to make a reflection of the old course by simulating patrols and typical troop organization. It shouldn't be a long camping course that it is. That being said, my observation is the participants gain the most value from applying their lessons to the Ticket Items. The one size fits all wasn't BSA indifference, it was intentional because the goals of team management for the program were equal for the Packs as well as the troops. I personally believe, National's mistake was trying to make this a WB course. Barry

My apologies Cubber. I over reacted to your post and find myself not being very scout like. I will try and set a better example. Barry

You asked the question but the answer completely went over your head. I don't think you really wanted to know. You just have and agenda. Not very scout like. Barry

Lots, but at the top of my mind scout independence declined because the adults didn't know how to implement the Eight Methods without directing them to the scouts. Instead of scout activities that required scouts to learn and use scout skills, they created classes to teach the skills. The adults started directing the scouts to follow specific patterns in their activities. One issue that grew from the old Wood Badge course was adults started forcing the scouts to follow the same agenda they experienced in their course. For example, the WB staff ate their meals with the Patrols in the old course. Suddenly scouts found themselves cooking for adults at each meal. Nobody really liked it. Certainly not the scouts, and the adults weren't excited about eating patrol food. But that is what they did at WB. You can't blame the adults, they didn't have a youth experience to base their program, so they used Wood Badge. Everyone assumes that Wood Badge is an adult Scout Skill training course, but that is not what Wood Badge was originally designed to develop. The old course used Scout Skills classes to teach different teaching methods, not the skills themselves. The designers assumed the participants would be experienced scouters looking to "improve" their leadership and teacher skills. I also observed that new leaders of new units tended to focus on advancement and leadership more than other parts of the program because those methods are easier to measure troop performance. Or rather, adult performance of running a troop. One of the more common ticket items of the 90s Wood Badge course was working the program so that all scouts earned 1st Class in their first year. Classes to teach all scouts the skills at the same time so they all advance at the same time. No independence there. I once had a new SM of a 6 month old troop ask my advice of what else his scouts could do on campouts besides advancement. I asked him how much free time they had scheduled in their program. He said they don't do free time because they were afraid the scouts would just get in trouble. The Same SM questioned me another time about how to get his scouts to run the PLC meeting. When I asked how the SPL planned his meetings, he said the SM plans and runs the meetings because the boys aren't mature enough until age 14. To be fair to this SM, when he realized he was not a good SM because of his lack of experience, he quit and brought in an adult Eagle. These are little things, but I could go on and on. As I said, the adults aren't being mean or negligent, they just don't know. So, they do what appeals to them as adults. But adults and youth don't have the same life experiences, so they don't have the same expectations or goals. Adults want the Eagle, scout want to camp and fish. Adults leaders by age 12, Scouts want to hike and build fires. Adults want all the tents set up neatly in a row, scouts want to sleep under the stars. Adults wants lights out by 10:00, scouts want to talk about their dreams until they fall asleep. All boy run patrol method programs are a 50/50 team effort of the scouts AND adults learning and growing from the experiences together. If the adults are humble, they start to get pretty good after about 3 years. But, they have to be open minded about learning and changing. Hope that helps. Barry

Agreed. The better CCs walk into the meeting already knowing questions that will be asked because they talked with the members before the meeting. That way they are prepared to control the discussion to keep it balanced. If a topic becomes complex and requires more time, it is scheduled for another time. Our SPLs are trained to manage meetings the same way. Barry

Parents are free to visit and join any troop they desire. The COR needs to sell their program just like all the other troops if he wants to build the troop back up. Barry

This is the reason I don't see the program with that addition of girls staying where it's at or ever going back to a more patrol method program. Eventually the adults without a scouting experience will level off to male and female adults with a scouting experience. But the experience will be from this generation, or next, view of the how the program should be used. The Canadian Scouts are already there. As for not picking on females as the problem, I agree. The only reason I used them as an example is because we saw the program change when they we brought in as leaders. Not because they were female, but because they had no experience as a youth in scouts to base some of their expectations as an adult. Barry

Says who! I was watching the discussion with Wisconsinmomma and Eagle94 and concluded that scouting is quickly changing from a "Game with a Purpose" to a "After School" outdoor experience program. I respect Wisconsinmomma for her intentions of expanding her son's youth experiences, she is no different than most of us. Just like most new leaders, the instinctive nurturing nature limits the "Game" part of the program. And it's OK because without the experience of the "Game", she doesn't know what she doesn't know. But in the past, it was the experienced guys with a youth experienced that basically kept the program somewhat on track of the "Game" and the "Purpose". So, why have I lost hope? I have said many time on this forum that units with adults who have a youth experience are at least three years ahead of all the other units. When the BSA brought female leaders into the troop program, that increased the pool of unexperienced adults around 70% through the next 10 years. It's been increasing even more since. Now it seems the adults with experience appear to be getting shouted down. Having a youth experience is becoming irrelevant because the "purpose" is what is really changing. And now the BSA is bringing girls into the mix for a family camping program, or something or other. I don't know what to say. I find it interesting that in 10 or 15 years in the future a troop program like ours 10 years ago will be seen as extreme. I'm shaking my head as I type. Those Adult leaders won't be able to imagine that that our scouts were allowed to camp without adults. And, after recent events, I have a lot of confidence that National will reinforce the will of the new generation of leaders making it even harder on those who want to follow the more traditional program. Barry

Well how old! It’s not like I remember the industrial revolution. My kids keep telling me I’m old, and my knees hurt on cold days. Isn’t that old enough? Barry

Us too. Or was it entire conversations of irony.🤔

You may be right, but I took it as sarcasm. Anything other wouldn't make sense.

Hmm, I took the Flags post as complementing stosh and TAHAWK for their passion and a big hole would be left in the program without them. Nothing about being anti feminist. Many of us believe the quality of the program for the boys will decline with the inclusion of girls. Hey, we watched the quality decline with the addition of female troop leaders. It is inevitable. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with how the female gender is respected. Barry

My experience is type A personalities will persevere. Either the unit leadership will learn to use the volunteers energy to the units advantage, or the type A person will eventually be the unit leader. As for recruiting, nothing works better than asking in person. I learned to match personal skills to the required need. I was rarely turned down because our human nature is to feel flattered when our time is requested specifically for our skills. And more often than not, the volunteer stayed in the position for a long time. Barry

Oh, I forgot. I enjoy people watching too. Barry

I'll be the nerdy one, I really really enjoy watching the scouts get it with decision making. I also found that I enjoyed being an adult trainer for the same reason. And it is the main reason I hang around here. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

OK So I have a personal story that reminds of the last few post. A personal friend brought here son around to visit our troop. Her expectations, like many parents new to the troop program, where different from her son. She want her son in a troop were all the adults looked sharp while working with the scouts who looked just as sharp. She didn't care for our troop where the adults sat in one room while the scouts did there thing in other rooms. And not all the scouts looked as sharp as the scoutmaster. ( Anyway, she and her son visited our troop FIVE times because he kept saying we were his choice. She kept resisting by visiting the two to choices until he decided with her choice. Well, her son won in the end. But even though we are friends, she was suspicious of the "boys" club of ASMs. So, even thought she attended all the meetings and campouts, she kept her distance. It was an odd situation, but we felt she would eventually fit in once she saw how our program worked. And sure enough, she visited me at summer camp to express how she finally got it. From her small tent she set up away from the other adults (boys club) and in the middle of camp, she observed older scouts on their own offering to help younger scouts with their classes. I don't know why that was the light bulb that turn on for her, but it changed her so much that she moved her tent to near the boys club. She bought in to our patrol method so much that she went and marketed for new scouts from her kids schools and church every year. She wrote a parents guide for new scouts that would make Badon Powel and Bill Hilcourt proud. She became the best CC we ever had. And all three of her sons became Eagles in our troop. I fully expect that same thing to happen with new members and the boys club on this forum because I think new members will learn what my friend learned, there is no boys club. Just like-minded people gathering in a place of their passion. Barry

Huh?

I guess, but even your reply is contradictory. "Stories told over and over", AND, "babies made all over the place". Where does "don't blame the girls" come from. I really don't feel you understand the members of this forum. Most of us are older with a lot of life and scouting experience. We have been Dancing for quite a long time. Barry

A professional a few years back told me that there are, what he called, scout babies floating around. That was back in the 90's. Based from what I hear about the more laid back European Scout Units, I have always wondered if they have that same issue. Never underestimate the power of raging hormones. As for the importance of adults in scouting, I am a big proponent of boy run patrol method. I am also convinced that adults set the tone of growth in all scouting units. As a result of that observation over the years, adults (the right adults) are the most important part of the program. BSA scouting is an adult program for preparing boys for adulthood. Err, um, preparing youth for adulthood. Barry

Stosh, you have posted chapters on your two scouts experience over the years. Your early posts speak of endepth coaching for the one scout. I'm not saying it is wrong, others here do it too. But it will never make sense to me. An Eagle is either ready for the world of adulthood, or he is not. That is my perspective. If a scout is treated unfairly, well then we go from there. As for continued maturing, yep. Barry Good answer. Barry

Yes, but based on whose perception of how to guide scouts through the Eagle requirements. I remember you asking how to lead a few MBs classes and your perception was not in line with how most experienced Scoutmasters would do it. So, who will set the standards for your sons. I think this is exactly the concerns are with what folks are calling helicopter parents. I don't know if you fit in that parent description, but your post seem to be a bit centered. Most of the better Scoutmasters don't base their actions from personal objectives. This is why I like this forum. Barry

Mr. stosh, I agree with the point your are making, I truly do. But there is something missing. The scout you describe in your post doesn't need any coaching for the EBOR. For any reason. Sounds more like a helicopter Scoutmaster. A lesson for all of us is no matter how old and how experienced we scoutmasters are, we Scoutmasters can keep learning to grow and mature more. Barry