Eagledad

Interestingly most of the adult problems I've seen as far as crossing the line are women leaders. I'll never forget the very attractive young Webelos leader mom who enjoyed the attention from the camp youth staff a little too much. Other instances were female leaders (moms) walking into the showers to check on their scouts who seem to be staying in the showers longer than they should. I really believe the inappropriateness of their action never occurred to them because they were just being mom. But it occurred often enough that the camp director had to call a meeting of all the unit leaders to once more REVIEW the rules and guidelines. Now that more girls are entering the scene, there will likely be a few....misunderstandings. Barry

The list handled the situation quite well without Johnny come lately moderators bringing their rulers to rap knuckles. The crowd had dispersed 12 hours before NJ jumped in. Some of us are grown ups and can handle the occasional tantrum. We save red flags for when there is really a need for caped crusaders. Come on mods, do no harm. Barry

Because? Barry

LOL, holding up to your reputation of the kind of person you have consistently been on this list. You make it quite clear what you really think of us. Hmm, I wonder, is that integrity. Barry

Most of the troops I advised with only one patrol were new and the scouts were all the same age. And since they were all the same experience level, the "Instructor" POR wasn't really appropriate. So, the older scout role model didn't really apply. Letting the Handbooks guide the scouts was the most intuitive method for guiding the scouts in a new troop with same experienced (or rather inexperienced) scouts with inexperienced adult leaders. New programs are a challenge because the adults struggle with getting up to speed in the program just as much as the scouts, if not more. So, I believe this approach works well for getting the patrol method rolling because the adults are using the same program material (youth handbooks) as the scouts. They are being forced to stand back and let the scouts work from the hand book guidelines. Of course the scouts will need additional guidance, but the guidance is coming more from a team member who is working from the same material instead of a know-it-all adult who just make it up. Scouts quickly learn to trust the adult as an equal student working toward the good of the whole program while the adult practices the art of humility by interacting with scouts on equal footing. It's not an easy process, but it works with some practice. Barry

Oh, you sure are welcome. It's kind of the perfect commercial. The audience thinks they know the plot, so they patiently watch to the expected conclusion. Only to be surprised with an ending that drives the nobility of the message strait to the heart. Barry

For my style of Scoutmastering, this analogy doesn't fit because the SPL's responsibility is only to serve and support the PLs, NOT run the patrol. Rather, the challenge for me in this situation is finding enough responsibility for the SPL to justify an experience where he can grow. That being said, I like to set scouts off in a direction where they require as little adult intervention as possible. For me, the best method of doing that is let their handbooks guide them. Just about all of the youth scouting handbooks instruct with the SPL as part of the program. In fact, the SPL Handbook, in my mind, is a better PLs guide than the PL Handbook. So, I generally encourage new adults of new troops to start with an SPL as guided by the handbooks and let the scouts figure out how to make it work, or if it can work. I know using an SPL for a one patrol troop is not a popular approach by most wise leaders on the forum, but I put it out there as another approach to this situation. Barry

What I was trying to say is the burned out Bear leaders finds no encouragement to continue into the Webelos program because, ""If one spends their whole life eradicating bugs, animals, weather, nature in general and such out of the house, why would anyone want to go outside and try and coexist with them? Outside is a foreign concept to many in today's society. If all the amenities of our society were to somehow come to a halt, most would die off rather quickly. If it's too cold in the house, most people simply turn up the thermostat and never think of the other option of putting on a sweater. When one is outside, the sweater is the only option. For some, the lack of a thermostat is the end of civilization as they know it."" Barry

You just described the average Bear leader. Burnout is the number one reason adults drop out of scouting, but looking a head at the Webelos program outline didn't help encourage the tired Bear leader to stay with the den. I know it sounds like doom and gloom, but I have been preaching the burnout problem for 20 years. National has responded by dumping more responsibility on Cub leaders.

Yes, this. A new SM (no youth experience) called me after their new troop had about 6 camp outs under their belt. He said his scouts were bored with advancement on the camp outs, what else could they do. I mention increase the free time so they could explore on their own. He said, "Oh no, we wouldn't want them wandering around getting in trouble, would we?". Agreed, and this is an argument a few women have with me. But, you would be surprised how few men and women camped in their youth. Young adults today (future parents) are raised in a culture of fear. They will not trust the pure form of patrol method. At best the program will viewed as an after school program for getting youth out into the woods. That's a nice objective, but that isn't scouting. Barry

You mean like scrolling "VOLUNTEERS NEEDED" toward the end of this commercal. I'm not saying use this specific commercial, I was only asking if a commercial could be effective. I am quite creative. I could think something up. Barry

Can a commercial be effective? You tell me. I've shown this before: Barry

Good question. I monitored membership in our district, and somewhat in the council to observed trends. But computer outputs don't provide details of youth experience. So, I interviewed a lot of adults during trainings and multiple unit activities. Traditionally adult leadership with youth experience at the cub level is low because of the high number of mom den leaders. But once the BSA allowed women leaders at the higher age programs, the percentage of experienced leaders logically dropped significantly. And the percentage kept dropping for several years as more mothers stayed in the program. I can't say when it leveled off, but the number was bouncing between 25 to 35 percent of youth experienced adults about 10 years ago. That is of course not scientific. The BSA's style of tracking membership makes scientific next to impossible. Anyway, what I saw over the years as the female leaders start getting more active in the troop program was boy run taking a significant hit. Not because the leaders were female, but because they had no youth experience to start from. Without past experiences to base a starting place, adults naturally revert to training and manuals for guidance. What training and manuals miss of the Boy Scout experience is the social interaction within the patrols and troops. Fellowship is a very appropriate word. As an example, some of my fond memories of my troop experience are the stories told around the patrol campfires. I learned so much about cars, planes, movies and girls from my patrol buddies. Those moments around the fire are part of the reason I'm a pilot and aero engineer. I found patrol fires to be a rare sight in troops where the dominant leaders didn't have a youth experience. I am saddened by the number of posters here who say their scouts don't do troop campfires because the scouts find them boring. I found relationships among scouts in troops today to be more formal. The brotherly relation experience is replaced by a more team role type of relationship. Not as personal or close because their roles are more of adult expectation. I expect the number of adults without a youth experience to go up as a result of bringing in girls in the program because more mothers will want to get involved. It's the natural trend I've been watching. Now maybe mothers are going to save the program from the problem of low volunteer numbers. But that doesn't help the situation I am describing. Barry

Ok, we agree to disagree. But I stated an observation of the last 25 years, not a theory or whim. My theory is that the program in 20 years will not resemble the program of 1992 because it was lost thru generations of adult leaders without a scouting experience. Less than 25 percent of new leaders joining the BSA today had a scouting experience. Is my theory really so hard to believe? Barry

Just an observation over the last 25 years. The more volunteers without a scouting experience, the more program quality suffers. I know that we don't really have control over it, but I've been harping for several years that program quality is a function of experienced volunteers. Which is a HUGE concern for me with the induction of girls. Barry

And don't forget the girls.

Peer pressure is a powerful motivator. Probably the most misused technique in the BSA for motivating scouts to change their behavior. You will be confronted with the force hundreds of times in your lifetime. You either develop the self confidence to ignore peer pressure, or you let it control you. I'm told girls like a good uniform. Barry

Absolutely! I grow tired of the rigid idealism that seems to hold these forum discussions hostage from outside-the-box ideas and suggestions. Troops in the real world have the freedom to use life experiences and creativity for dealing with the unusual and unexpected situations that challenge their program. It's one thing to use general principle as a compass for direction. It's something different to be held to the inflexible rails of idealistic theory. The direction I give to new scout leaders of new troops is very different from the direction given for mature experienced programs, and between. Barry

I agree. When we get tired of hiking up hill, we stop and rest. When we get tired of paddling in the wind, we keep paddling. Otherwise the wind would blow us back to where we started. Barry

Little hints and nudges are very powerful. But let's assume for a moment the scouts did come up with the idea on their own. Should a SM who doesn't agree with shuffling get involved with the scouts' decision? Why or why not? Barry

Really! The trend of the discussion appears just the opposite. I think the OP got very good responses. Barry

Yes, this is true. However, There are several boy scout camps that lead back packing groups for a week and age is not a requirement. Same goes for canoeing, we do a trip to Canada every other year and just rent our own equipment. We get better gear for less cost. You can hire a guide if you need one. And many of our scouts spent a month getting their scuba license so they could spend a week in Mexico diving every day. So don't let the lottery slow you down if you really want back country adventure. Barry

I was thinking about this subject the other day. We often read Wood Badgers say "I used to be a Bob White (or whatever critter), a good ol Bob White to". Wood Badgers always feel a special connection with their Wood Badge patrol. So why wouldn't scouts feel the same? Well. they do. As a youth, I was a Flaming Arrow. Nothing else, just a Flaming Arrow. It was a great patrol and I'm quite proud of being a part it. I have never understood reshuffling patrols. It defeats the purpose of what we are trying to accomplish with the patrol method. I guess you have experienced it, so you are sensitive to it. But it is a foreign concept to me. Barry

If a volunteer doesn't agree with the BSA program (Vision, Mission, Aims, Methods, Values and so on), there are other organizations that may welcome that volunteer's time. A committee just may have a concern when the SM is apprehensive about discussing the program. Why would a SM be apprehensive? And where else can a concerned parent calmly have a discussion with the SM than in the committee meeting? An internet forum? The committee is one of the best opportunities for a SM to educate his program to the parents of the scouts. If the SM can't explain the reasoning for why and how the program works to the parents of the troop, then there might be reason for concern. The committee has the power to insure the program is safe and operating under the guidelines of the BSA. Barry

When we switched to weekly PLC meetings, we allotted one hour before the Troop meeting started. But those meetings shortened to 20 minutes within few months because they become more efficient at each meeting. And they got a lot more done. Our SPL gets so good at running meetings that I would match many of them with my company managers. And it's not just an advantage for PLC meetings. Scouts learn by watching other scouts in action, the PLs learn how to run better patrol meetings from their experiences in the PLC meetings. The scouts in the patrols learn good meeting habits simply by watching the PLs. Like many here, we don't allow any adults in the PLC meetings without permission from the SPL. But I found that even the SM rarely needs to attend. Typically I only attended if the PLC needed to ask a question. The SPL calls me the night before to brief me on his agenda, so my attendance was rarely required. Barry