Eagledad

One other advantage of using your own outfitter is lighter Kevlar canoes. Great pictures JoeBob, brings back a lot of memories. One of our adults also took his Border Collie. One big difference I tell "adults" deciding between canoeing in Canada and hiking Philmont is that you can take a bath every day in Canada. Ahhhhhhh.

The three things I remember our patrol talking about in the 1970s at the patrol campfire was cars, movies and girls. It was educational for the younger scouts. I can say at least 50% of the reason I joined the Scuba Explorers was because of the girls who wore bikinis during many of our activities. As for boys talking about girls at camp, I remember once a young very attractive Webelos leader causing quite a stir with the camp staff at our council Webelos summer camp. Especially at the swim area. Scouting does not stop human nature. Barry

In the 1970s, my Patrol leader took me to patrol meetings IN HIS CAR. The average age of our patrol leaders was between 15 and 17 years old. Unheard of today. Barry

The fixed blade restriction is a 1980s leftover from camps restricting the large blade survival knives made popular by the Rambo movies. Cheap copies were easy to get at the time and a lot of boys had them. Some of them were large enough to compete as a machete. They weren't restricted because they were more dangerous, the restrictions were based on the military image they portrayed, which the BSA tries hard to stay away from. Sadly, all fixed blade knives were the casualty of the restriction. Ignorance (I know mods hate that word) kept the myth alive, but surprisingly, common sense seems to have prevailed and acceptance of the fixed blade is coming back. Barry

We had this situation a couple times in both cubs and troops. We contacted our district Commissioner and DE to show them the problem and why were asking parents to stay away from the scouts. But you don't have to do that. If the COR has a problem with the parent, they have every right to ask them to leave without Council permission. In our case, the adults were leaders, so we could asked to have their membership taken away. But instead we simply restricted them from being near the boys and unit activities. That way you aren't asking their sons to leave, just the parent. In one case, mom and son left to join another troop. And another, and even one more before Council took her membership away. As for what Council will do, they like to stay out of unit business when they can because they have plenty of other situations to deal with. They in general will support what you ever propose unless it is against BSA policies. Barry

Our troop actually gave this a try. Our scouts met at a church about five miles from a local lake with camping grounds. They set out that afternoon and set out to camp. An adult met them there because the camp required adults with the scouts. However, the scouts were given freedom to do what they wanted and the adult was instructed to sit back. All went well until one of the scouts (a problem in the past) decided to get up in the middle of the night and hike home. I got a panicky call from the adult (only one with a cell phone back then) that a scout was missing. No idea where or how. As soon as I hung up, the scouts dad called and said his son just got home. That little incident didn't stop us from letting other patrols go on their own campouts, but that was the only one where the scouts chose to hike out of town on their own. Our troop requires (back when I was SM) for each patrol to organize two patrol campouts each year. Although the scouts enjoy those camp outs, they rather go with the troop for a couple of reasons. 1. Our troop plans pretty good camp programs that the patrols want to do. 2. Planning a camp out in this day and age is a lot of work because of logistics, and boys of this age in general like the path of least resistance. Each patrol is responsible for arranging transportation to the camp at a time they choose to go. So they have full independence to do whatever they want. But, if the troop is going on a rappelling camp out, that is what they want to do. And while they can leave when ever they want, it's easier getting the gear out of storage with the other patrols and following the group to camp. I can't see where that is really a bad thing. We push the patrols to be independent, but we also allow them to make choices. How much of one should we push over the other? By the way, I asked my dad why they didn't drive to camps, he reminded me that fuel was expensive and hard to get back then. Otherwise they would have "gone the path of least resistance". Barry

My dad was a scout in the early 40s. I don't know how a typical troop functioned back then, but his troop would meet up on a Friday afternoon at one of the scout's house and then hike out of town with their gear. It was a small town in Mississippi, so they didn't have to hike far to be in the county. They would hike until they had had enough and then ask the owner of the property nearby for permission to set up camp. All this without the SM. The SM would ask them at the next meeting what they did and what they learned. He would provide a signature for what ever needed the SM's signature. I'm sure there was more to the SM's responsibility than that, but that is about as much as my dad remembers of the responsibility. I don't know how many patrols were in the troop, or if they just had one patrol, but he said the SPL was the troop leader on camp outs. To be fair, there weren't very many men around at the time because of the war and the few who were around worked long hours to make ends meet. So, his scouting experience might have been unusual even for the time. BUT, can anyone envision that type of troop today? Barry

The Scouting BP envisioned was a means to an end. His end (vision) was a world of better men, not better outdoorsmen. Can’t get there until you know where you are going. BP once wrote about the challenges of adults being to self focused on the Method and not enough on the Aim. I spent a lot of time in training trying to get adults to understand the differences between scout growth (Aims) and camping (Methods) just so they could build their program to the common goal using their own personal life skills. I think most of the experienced scouters on this forum believe Patrol Method is the best way in the troop program to work toward the Aims. But most adults struggle to see how the Methods work towards a Scout’s growth (or Aims). Does an individual patrol of Scouts have an advantage over a troop of individual patrols in using Patrol Method towards the Aims and Vision? I don’t think so. As long as the program is developed for, and measured against, the Aims, the program is working correctly just the way BP intended. Barry

Great list. Well done. It should be the check list for all troops and all their camp outs. Barry

Our troop learned Thorns and Roses from Philmont, but it really never caught on in the troop. Philmont started using it when scouts complained the adults were taking over the crews and there was nothing the scouts could do about it. Philmont added thorns and roses to help give scouts a way of expressing their frustration. Our PLC is encouraged to nip any concern with adults in the bud by talking to the SPL who in turn will talk to the SM if needed. I think most issues never get to the Thorns and Roses level. Barry

That’s how I worked. Yes, they eventually caught on. Barry

Yep, as a JLT and NYLT (actually JLTC) course designer and Council JLT chairman, I can say without reservation that youth leadership training doesn’t do a lot of good if the adults don’t know how use the skills and information the scouts take from the courses. In my ideal world, adults are sent to NYLT, not the scouts. Because scout growth is directly dependent on the actions of role models, scouts don’t really require any formalized training if the adults are doing their part correctly. I used constant acts of skills being applied improperly (or not at all) as a Red Flag that the troop program was doing something wrong and needed a change. As for QC, I taught in my adult leadership courses to use Aims and Methods for program guidance and QC. Adults are responsible for Aims, scouts are responsible for applying Methods. But, QC is a learned action. Quality has to start somewhere. For scouts to do QC, they have to learn QC and it’s value. Barry

Or give the Scouts more control. Barry

The Col. is right, 11 & 12 year old boys are ready for independent challenges parents aren’t ready to consider, which is why staying home is a good idea until they are acclimated to the troop program and their sons real abilities. I see it every year at summer camp. Once the troop arrives to camp, the scouts are purposely left to their own. All the adults are asked to let the scouts (and sons) be on their own and to stand back and just watch. We even put the adults in a different campsite. This forces (and allows) each scout to figure out their classes, route to classes and acceptable behavior for their activities. Adults don’t lead or follow them to classes, it’s up to the scouts to find them. Or not, which does sometimes happen. Once in a while a parent gets upset and think the end of the world occurred because their son got behind in “advancement”. But, their sons usually have great stories and learned something valuable (character) from the adventure. Camps can be large and scary, so scouts are required to follow the buddy system and seek help from their patrol leader. Summer camps are the safest place I know of for letting boys spend a week without adult guidance. And without realizing it, they mature a lot. Parents have told me many times their son that came home was not the one who left. And that is a very good thing. That’s what I mean by “trust me and watch.” barry

I have always felt that parent relations is the most challenging skill for SMs. The better SMs are usually great salesmen who deflected parent over involvement with a “trust me and watch” sales pitch. If push comes to shove (scouts choosing to skip activities), the SM will have to draw a line in the sand. If the SM isn’t a good salesman, a trusted well experienced assistant can also be a good interpreter between the SM and parents. Barry

Yes, this is the expected result when a major organizational change is forced on its membership without a reasonable explanation or an honest two way discussion. My apologies to Wisconsinmomma for being a bit pointed. I would enjoy learning opinions from a new leader if we could get around the assumed biases and have a pragmatic discussion. Barry

I’m not shutting down a point of view, I’m pointing out your condescending tone towards the opinions of scouters who have many many more years experience than you. You choose how you want contribute to a meaningful discussion, but If you can’t respect our concerns from where we stand, how are we to respect your hopes for the girls. And if you don’t agree with my opinion of your posts, consider that you haven’t said much (if anything) of concern for what your sons will get out of the program. Who here has their back? Barry

So, we are saying folks of BPs day didn’t understand (or respect) the value of single gender role models? Could maybe the possibly be that are generation doesn’t get it? After seeing what national politics did to the Canadian Scouts, I think he would have concern of who controls the organization vision. Barry

WisconsinMomma, you amare saying all the right things in defense of women in scouts. But your words don’t hold in any weight because there isn’t a defense for boys needing male role models as bad as girls need female role models. We know that girls are coming and more moms will follow as leaders . So that doesn’t add to the discussion either. As some of us more experienced scouters see it, adding girls to the troop program takes away from the boys and offers more to the girls. To us, we are only questioning if adding girls is worth sacrificing the best possible growth for the boys? That’s our struggle. If you want to contribute something meaningful to that discussion, great. But, as you form your thoughts, have respect for the many on this list with dozens of years building character in young men. We have a lot of experience observing the advantages of the patrol method program and know what is gained and lost by adding girls. Instead of defending the membership changes with patronizing doublespeak pointed at good-oh-boy old timers too stubborn to move with the times, respect the words and visions from experts in the field who have the experience you don’t have. Is moving the program toward mediocrity worth the loss of possibilities for our sons? Seems the world says yes. And maybe so. But don’t discount the losses and don’t disrespect those who morn the losses. Barry

you would think, but the Supreme Court is roughly 50/50 politically. Is that conscience, moral conscience, emotion, or what. They only supposed to interpret the law. Judge Judy made millions by applying moral reasoning to her judgements. Because our society is drifting from religion, I think more people have less self moral guidance. So, when someone with sound moral understanding comes along, like Judge Judy, they attach to them to feel some sense of security for direction. Barry

I’ve worked with and trained several female SMs. Only one understood how to use Patrol Method the way it was intended and that was because her ASM husband is an Eagle Scout. All fine scouters, but their programs (except the one) verged on Webelos III. And yes, male SMs with the same youth experience as the female SMs performed the same. I’m on record here stating how adding females dramatically changed the troop program. The Woodbadge program in 2000 was a direct result. Human nature drives youth to naturally learn from dominating role models (SM) of the same gender until puberty. I can’t imagine that mixed gender roles has near the impact on growth. Barry

And what does stosh want? The BSA SCouting community struggles enough with general consensus of the BSA program without experienced scouters yelling a the top of their lungs that troops following BSA guidelines like the Mission, Vision, Aims and Methods are adult run programs. The program is in a tough place, National appears more focused on numbers than Ideals, training passes out highlights but misses important details, and experienced scouters preach go-it-your-own. There doesn't appear to be much humility in that mix. But imagine a small group of scouters, like those on a forum, would step back and open the minds to learning and considering different ideas, maybe they could use those ideas in their programs to learn more and grow more. Then they take those experiences and lessons learned to influence those who aren’t growing because they are stuck in the mud or just complacent. There are many reasons why units fall short with their program. But what options do they have if we tell them they are doing it wrong and then walk away. They need sensible easy down to earth person to person neighborly advice from an experienced friend to help them see a new possibility. Imagine a movement like that changing the BSA back to the organization that compliments its noble reputation one scouter at a time. I really believe that as a result of the new membership changes, the BSA needs the experienced scouters more than ever. Barry

Idealism is the North Star that keeps us going in the right direction. But character is learned from the struggles of just trying to keep from going in the opposite direction. I’m tired of folks assuming adults inherently know how to be good leaders. Adults have to learn twice as much twice as fast just to keep up. The challenge isn’t running the program without little cheats to go forward, the challenge is learning how to do it better than the cheats. Eagle94 mentioned in another post that patrol method needs about three years to get rolling under its own momentum. That is true only if the adults continue to learn, grow, and change. Experience is the hardest teacher, it gives the test first, then the lesson. Barry

Sadly I don’t understand the waterboy reference. Barry

By-laws are generally a reaction for dealing with difficult situations because the adults lacked experience and maturity to handle them more rationally on individual bases. Kind of like a Zero tolerance rule in school. Sometimes by-laws help a struggling program move forward until it gets under its own feet. Scouts in boy run programs also create by-laws for the same reason. They just don’t call the by-laws. But usually by-laws fade away as the program matures with experience. What to do with by-laws depends on if the adults feel ready to move on. Hard in this instance to say because dictating how the new Scouts will use the patrol method is unusual. The SM Handbook, PL Handbook and SPL Handbook already provide guidelines for new Scouts. And SMs usually dictate the policy after enough experience. Why the need for a by-law? Maybe the troop is using the by-laws as more of a new parents guide. Maybe you should approach the change in that manner. Barry