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Chapter 11 Announced - Part 4 Revised Plan


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1 hour ago, David CO said:

I'm willing to go along with the normal codes of decency, but there is only so much effort I'm willing to make to thwart those who use extra-ordinary means to violate them.

I understand what you’re saying, but here comes the “but.” If someone is or is headed so far over the line as to approach infringing on someone else’s safety and I’m present, I would go to any means to stop them. Any. I’m not saying you wouldn’t, but that’s my but if you were saying otherwise. You may be talking specifically about prevention by using the word “thwart.” Dunno. As an aside, thwart is a strange word, isn’t it? One of those that if you say it over and over it gets weirder and weirder. Hm. Wonder why that is? Another of life’s great mysteries.

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@CynicalScouter Thanks from me and frankly, surely everyone, for tracking on the status of National's bankruptcy pleadings, and the procedural steps, past and pending, in the Bankruptcy case. And your

Okay. Enough. If you aren't talking about court proceedings then drop it.  It would be a shame to lock this thread now.

A few random observations from watching this bankruptcy unfold over the past several months: The focus has clearly been on protecting the national organization first and then the local councils.

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1 hour ago, David CO said:

I don't think so.  Not everyone needs to become an expert on counter-surveillance.  It sounds like more effort than I'm willing to put into it.

I know there are some really creepy people out there.  I see indications of it all the time.  Whenever I look up a celebrity on the internet,  I see a link to photos of them barefoot.  I'm not sure why some people are so intent on seeing other people barefoot.  I suspect it's a foot fetish thing.  Very strange.

I also don't understand this attitude about nudity.  There are billions of people in the world, and roughly half of them have the same anatomy.  There is nothing unique about human anatomy.

I think it's strange that some people are so obsessed with anatomy.  I also think it is strange that some people are so obsessed with concealing it.  I'm willing to go along with the normal codes of decency, but there is only so much effort I'm willing to make to thwart those who use extra-ordinary means to violate them.

I think Eagle1970s advice was good. What you do on your own time is one thing but if you're in scouts we can't have cameras in the bathrooms. This is kind of a problem with BSA's packaged YPT. By the time it comes out, it's out of date. It needs to be a real time. 

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45 minutes ago, yknot said:

What you do on your own time is one thing but if you're in scouts we can't have cameras in the bathrooms.

Yes. And, for the record, an adult deploying video surveillance technology AND recording adults, let alone children, in a bathroom is not a matter of decency or overactive interest in human anatomy. In a number of states, it’s criminal. In all states, it’s a basis for civil action. Ask UCS. “Reasonable expectation of privacy” and all that rot. There are exceptions that allow CCTV of common areas with posted warnings and such

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On 7/31/2021 at 3:21 PM, CynicalScouter said:

 

Again, this is the TCC/FCR/Coalition version of events. But it gets at the bigger, broader point. The insurance companies are going to stall, stall, stall as long as they can and throw up every roadblock they can.

 

There aren’t many things in this world more unlikeable than insurance companies... (Deleted)

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1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

I would go to any means to stop them. 

I know there are security people who will come in and sweep an area for electronic eavesdropping devices.  I've never been in a high security occupation that uses such services, so I am not knowledgeable about the particulars.  Do you happen to know about this stuff?  

How much means ($$$) would it take to stop them.

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2 minutes ago, David CO said:

Do you happen to know about this stuff?  

Sorry. I was specifically talking about if I caught someone. When this was brought up, I did some research and there are instructions about how to spot and identify them. I hate the thought of having to sweep for surveillance gear, whether visually or through technology. Yeah. I don’t know nuttin about such complexities. Heck. I hate knowing I’m being filmed everywhere I go/am in public, and often when I think it’s private. Creeps me out on 20 different levels. 

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25 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

They are not all bad;  more attorneys signed the Declaration of Independence than any other profession.

And, for fun, you don’t have to go far to find one. In the US, we have one attorney for every 240 people. Does that seem odd? I used to hope they would keep making the California bar harder and harder — it’s notoriously rugged for many — so the market would stop the annual flood of puppies. If that statistic is meaningless to you, I can also report that “the human head weighs 8 pounds.” (Nod to little man Ray.)

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6 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

Chubb/Century and Hartford are still refusing to turn over financial information, perhaps most critically the question of how much assets Century has and to what extent Chubb is liable for Century debts.

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/f71fbcdd-939f-4ded-b0b8-2569bdcffb06_5835.pdf

In short and perhaps a tad oversimplified, there's a (real) possibility that the hoped for big insurance payouts may not happen. Chubb may (and let be stress, may) argue down the road that under the terms of the 1996 acquisition of Century that Chubb took on only Century's assets and debts as of that date. Meaning that if, say, the result is $4 billion in sexual abuse claims next year and Century has only $1 billion in assets in 2022, then the abuse victims get only $1 billion and can NOT access Chubb's ~$100+ billion in assets.

The TCC/FCR/Coalition would like to get answers to that NOW, not after a vote or sometime down the road post-confirmation.

Since this is a really, really big deal to any proposed settlement, the FCR/Coalition/TCC are demanding answers. Chubb/Century is basically told them to stick it: refusing to produce anything, then only handing in paper documents (when electronic documents were asked for to allow faster review and scanning) and then on top of that rather than delivering copies to all three (FCR/TCC/Coalition) they simply dropped off copies to the Coalition's law firm.

And, just as BSA did before, the insurance companies are saying anything and everything is mediation privileged: if it was mentioned in the mediation, that means it cannot be revealed.

Again, this is the TCC/FCR/Coalition version of events. But it gets at the bigger, broader point. The insurance companies are going to stall, stall, stall as long as they can and throw up every roadblock they can.

 

Hmmmm….

 

DDF03690-697E-4C77-A219-CDEAB684B911.jpeg

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27 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Hmmmm….

 

DDF03690-697E-4C77-A219-CDEAB684B911.jpeg

Yeah, I got a fan.

My speculation here is along the lines of what is the the nature of that "runoff" agreement that the PA Commissioner agreed to and wants no one else to see. If it is in anyway capped, that could means one of two things:

1) The cap's unenforceable garbage. Sure, there may be (and let me say again may be) a cap on Century's runoff as part of the transfer to Chubb ("We'll buy you, but only if the debt's $1 billion (an illustrative number I am pulling out of thin air)" or something like that) and that was enough to get past the PA Commissioner's smell test, but it is going to collapse under the least amount of legal pressure given that Chubb can't have it both ways (keep the assets, dump the liabilities into a black hole).

2) The cap does exist, is enforceable, but is a nuclear bomb Chubb/Century doesn't want to let on to until after BSA's out of this. Remember the premise of Chubb/Century's lawyers (and indeed I suppose all lawyers advocating for their client) is you do NOT give up one more thing than you are legally obligated to do so.

Think about it: right now if it came out Chubb/Century's total liabilities are capped at current assets of $1 billion (again, an illustrative number I am pulling out of thin air), then BSA's plan will never get past the creditors/victim's vote. The entire PREMISE of that vote, as laid out by the TCC in its "plain English" document it wants to send to voting/victims, amounts to "vote for BSA to get out of bankruptcy now, we'll get the big fish insurance companies later."

What if there's no "there" there? If victims knew that there's no big pie in the sky called "insurance payouts" and that all they had was to tear whatever meat was on the bones of BSA and the LCs (with the COs maybe)? Now Kosnoff's liquidation plan moves from absurdist nihilism to the most logical course of action. No plan for reorg ever gets approved.

This is speculative, but it is precisely why TCC/FCR/Coalition want those documents. It could be that the 1996 document in particular DO put Chubb's $100+ billion in assets COMPLETELY in jeopardy in which case stalling makes sense.  Or it could be the insurance companies are simply going to stall because they are going to make this take as long as possible and not release anything until they get a court ordering them to do so. Or it could be they don't want to jinx/screw up the BSA bankruptcy because who knows what happens if this gets tossed back to state courts.

With only speculation to run on, all things are equally plausible.

Oh, and hi Mr. Kosnoff if you are reading.

Edited by CynicalScouter
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25 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Hmmmm….

 

DDF03690-697E-4C77-A219-CDEAB684B911.jpeg

I am confused as to how Mr. Kosnoff can be posting as a legal individual if he is no longer a lawyer, as was, I believe was posted on this forum.  He can I guess call himself whatever he chooses, but is he more technically posing as an officer of the court in some capacity, without a legal right?  Just asking.

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2 minutes ago, skeptic said:

I am confused as to how Mr. Kosnoff can be posting as a legal individual if he is no longer a lawyer, as was, I believe was posted on this forum.  He can I guess call himself whatever he chooses, but is he more technically posing as an officer of the court in some capacity, without a legal right?  Just asking.

Timothy David Kosnoff is admitted to the practice of law and an active member of the Washington State Bar.

https://www.mywsba.org/PersonifyEbusiness/LegalDirectory/LegalProfile.aspx?Usr_ID=000000016586

Whoever said he wasn't an attorney any longer was misinformed.

What MAY have happened (pure speculation) is he was admitted to practice in Texas and let that lapse OR he let his Washington State Bar admission lapse and then became active again.

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On 7/31/2021 at 10:55 PM, SiouxRanger said:

(deleted)

You still have ‘yellow pages’ ? 

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I think with the cameras situation, it is another item to add to the list of items to be aware of.  Electronic sweeping and such are virtually impossible to do effectively at a price anyone is willing to pay. I'll never look at a towel dispenser the same ever again. And, I'll do a quick look around in restrooms and showers. I don't know anything about the technology, but a rudimentary course is going to be necessary. It is sad the damage that a few bad actors do.  My guess is that packages over 13 ounces have to be mailed at the Post Office, if not metering the postage, courtesy of the Unabomber.  And the TSA...

Eternal vigilance...

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