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John-in-KC

OFFICIAL NEWS RELEASE: Girls as Youth Members, All Programs

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Nope. I'm just stating the this is one benefit that boys could have by adding girls to the program. @@prof stated he saw nothing great for boys. One could argue that helping to change boy's and men's views of girls and woman could be great for them.

 

Now, I'm not stating that this is a guaranteed outcome nor is is definitely a net benefit for boys.

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We engaged with our local council as we had questions, as the old Radio Shack slogan went, "you've got questions, we've got blank stares" was in full force.

 

Some of the questions we had went to what is next.  Uniforms, Duty to God, Outdoor, family camping for Scouts, and the first answer was "No, none of that is changing" and we asked "How do you know if you claim to not have known about this?"  

 

Best engagement went when they advised "I think we can all agree that Girls and leadership is important and BSA can do yada yada".  Our input was that no we may not all agree on that.  We feel that we can all agree the North Korean nuclear program is not great, not sure BSA is the one to handle that.  Yes a bad analogy but connecting two non related items may not effectively make your point.

 

Some discussion on that BSA was not like other World Scouting movements with regard to gender, our position was I am pretty sure there are a myriad of items we are not similar to with the World Scouting movement, did that mean we would be emulating those also?

 

Then the point that girls were already participating so let's make it official.  My response was so if enough units do something outside of policy, rather than address that the go forward plan is to change the policy to make everyone compliant?

 

I asked why nothing beyond the press release and nothing on council web page, or any social media.  If this was absolutely the best thing since sliced bread, why not own it and run with it.  They said plans are still be drawn up and will be communicated.  As has been noted, to say that National fumbled this change is being kind.  They have zero idea how to engage in change management.  If they truly believed the support was as deep and "unanimous" as reported then 10/11/2017 would be the best day ever for scouting in the USA.

 

Pretty sure the single gender dens and single gender troops are really nothing but a straw man.  The reality (from the BOY Scout perspective) to gin up a troop from scratch is daunting at best.  We are a large troop, 100+ and do 14 or so outdoor events per year.  Just moving away from the Church is a lesson in logistics.   If the CO decides to do a Girl troop, even if we are separate, how long before the parents there are campaigning to roll it into one unit.  After all, they are already trained, why don't those leader just welcome the new scouts.  Then we will go from a community supporting troop to the bad guys.

 

As they said in Red October - This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it. 

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I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not worried about having female adult leaders or older female venturers at camp (except there won't be enough of them).  I'm not worried about girls in cubscouts.  What I'm worried about is the cute 15 year old girl that makes all of the boyscouts act like fools.  I'm sure that venturers, seascouts, our foreign friends and anyone else dealing with youths have all had to deal with this before so it's nothing new.  But I'm not too old to remember what I and my friends were like when hormones were raging.  It's amazing how much dumber we became around teenage girls and more importantly jealous of each other when someone else got the attention we wanted or spiteful when rejected... 

 

 

I'm not worried about it. This isn't going to be the same story a lot of us know, where a troop camps somewhere and a girl scout troop happens to camp nearby, and the boys all lose their minds. The novelty of that kind of situation is what fuels the dumbness. The boys see girls every day at school and think nothing of it. They're capeable of focusing in class, working with girls on projects, etc., without issue. But out in the woods in a situation where you don't expect to see girls, it's totally different.

 

That all will change with this new girls initiative in the BSA. If the novelty of seeing girls at scout meetings, trips, events, etc., wears off, then we're just back to business as usual. And I believe the novelty will wear off quickly.

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I wonder if they will come up with a companion magazine called Girls Life?

Interesting aside to this.  Before the local school districts decided actual librarians in the schools were not needed. I used to donate past dated B.L.'s to one of the schools in which a regularly subbed.  The librarian at the time was always very appreciative, as the magazine was one of their favorite items for the middle school group.  She told me that as many girls read it as boys, maybe more.  Now, most of our schools have no on site librarian and the teachers have to absorb that as well.  Another example of misplaced priorities, in my view.

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Speaking as someone recently out of Scouting you guys are way off about how guys think of girls. It’s constant. If they’re around we want to be around them and we will act different. Take school. Girls have been in my schools since kindergarten but it hasn’t changed how stupid I act around them. Maybe you’re speaking as parents or maybe things were just different when you were my age but I can tell you girls are all we talked about. Put them in the troop and that talk will only increase.

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@@backpack. I was a Boy Scout starting in 1988 until 1995. During that time we had girl summer camp counselors around our same age and our Troop had a couple of girls that would go with us on trips to BWCA. I think the interactions were mixed. As a SPL I had to go into a tent and pull out two of my Scouts who were " just talking" with the girl counselors and not attending their merit badge clinics. That said, it occurred infrequently and when it did happen I made it clear it wasn't acceptable. On our trips to BWCA we were focused on fishing, canoeing and hiking. The girls were just additional members attending. By the end of the day we were so exhausted we simply hung out at the campfire, talked about the days events and fell asleep in our separate tents.

 

Yes, I agree there will definitely be additional challenges. That said, if your scout leaders (boys, not adults) have clear expectations of their patrols and scouts, then it can be managed. I do hope they are able to keep Troops single gender for at least several years as I believe it will take the leadership some time to figure out how to handle these situations.

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As far as the FAQ and roll out plan I agree this was a complete miss. I was talking about this with a Cubmaster who said girls aren't allowed to camp in Cubscouts after this change. I told him I thought they were allowed if you have YPT and BALOO coverage plus keep genders separate. He said that wasn't true and that he saw something that stated coed packs can't camp.

 

 

Actually Surbaugh stated 11-14 year old boys and girls cannot camp together. The adults stating that they will integrate girls into their troops said they would use the 300' rule, i.e. patrol camp 300" away form each other, to get around this.

 

And if Surbaufgh really did say this, then what about camporees, summer camp, and jambo. If he did say it, he wasn't thinking.

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I'm not worried about it. This isn't going to be the same story a lot of us know, where a troop camps somewhere and a girl scout troop happens to camp nearby, and the boys all lose their minds. The novelty of that kind of situation is what fuels the dumbness. The boys see girls every day at school and think nothing of it. They're capeable of focusing in class, working with girls on projects, etc., without issue. But out in the woods in a situation where you don't expect to see girls, it's totally different.

 

That all will change with this new girls initiative in the BSA. If the novelty of seeing girls at scout meetings, trips, events, etc., wears off, then we're just back to business as usual. And I believe the novelty will wear off quickly.

one way or another it will have to be handled just like everything else but I disagree with you on the "boys think nothing of it" discussion.  I hear what my thirteen year old talks about to his friends while they are online at home.  they want to sit next to girls they like and talk to girls they like and are crushing hard on girls and that's while they are at school.  I imagine it will be similar at scouts IF there is a girl that a scout fancies.  I have to agree with Back Pack's perspective on this.  I just remembered when one of the older scouts brought his new girlfriend with him to a fundraiser.  He didn't make it half way through the event before he was off holding hands and making googly eyes with her.  Not saying that will be the problem but I don't think they are suddenly going to act as genderless scouts.  Men and women in the military may work together without issue but there's all kinds of sex going on between them.  Again, I'm not saying that will be the problem. 

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"you've got questions, we've got blank stares"

 

Thanks I needed that! :)

 

Poor suckers, they are stuck in the middle. 

Tampa, are all your scout leaders male in the troop?  25% of my ASMs are female in my troop.  I wonder if they would have had the same reaction if that was the case?    I am not being judgemental, just wondering.

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Speaking as someone recently out of Scouting you guys are way off about how guys think of girls. It’s constant. If they’re around we want to be around them and we will act different. Take school. Girls have been in my schools since kindergarten but it hasn’t changed how stupid I act around them. Maybe you’re speaking as parents or maybe things were just different when you were my age but I can tell you girls are all we talked about. Put them in the troop and that talk will only increase.

An observation from watching my coed scouts here.

 

A few years ago we had a joint evening with the girl guides that also use our building on a different night. We went to the local campsite for a wide games and camp fire night. Two things were interesting to note.

 

Firstly the girls in the respective troops looked different. Those who were scouts basically dressed properly for the outdoors. Boots or trail shoes on their feet. Walking trousers, goretex, etc. The guides were all polka dot wellie boots and pink bobble hats. There was a definite difference in attitude!

 

More interestingly was attitude of the boys. Yes there was some fooling around. But it was aimed entirely at the girl guides, not the girls in scouts. Those that they saw all the time, that were not a distraction at all. The only distraction were those who were a novelty.

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Tampa, are all your scout leaders male in the troop?  25% of my ASMs are female in my troop.  I wonder if they would have had the same reaction if that was the case?    I am not being judgemental, just wondering.

 

Mashy, We are all men at this time and are quite well staffed this year. I have tried to recruit a number of likely lady candidates into ASM's but other than one who went to camp with us no luck thus far. However we have quite a few Mom's doing key Committee jobs and MBC; in fact they formed their own patrol one year and socialize occasionally for a 'Girls Night Out' when the Troop is away. We have always been fortunate to have a strong well organized committee.

 

As for the women who turned me down the reasons (in no particular order)  I got were:

(1) They wanted their boys to have male influences only on campouts (often a single mom)

(2) They were pretty conservative about the Boy Scout Tradition (often an active duty military mom--no wall flowers, mind you)

(3) Their son would not want them too

(4) They were 'retired' after Cub Scouts

(5) Would prefer the time off (really a general parent thing, there)

(6) Active GSUSA, Venturing leader and plate quite full

(7) Not sure other men would welcome them at campouts. (a few are opposed)

(8) Not sure other wives would approve of them hanging out with the other dads all weekend (this was more an issue than I imagined)

 

THAT said after working on (7) with the other ASM's we loosened up on letting Mom's who were worried about their Scout (young scout, special needs, transfer after a difficult previous Troop) coming on the campouts and camping with the ASM patrol. On three of the four occasions we did that we did have 'Mommy' problems (but then we have all had 'Daddy' problems at campouts haven't we) that interfered with discipline, patrols, meals etc. That left a real bad taste with the older boys which I think explains their reaction about "Family Camping" and "Cub Scout Camping". 

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I had a conversation with a short lived pro who went to  DE training in Dallas last year. From the conversation I had with them and other stuff I am seeing, I believe the volunteers, parents, and Scouts have been lied to.

 

You read that correctly, I BELIEVE NATIONAL LIED TO US IN THE FIELD. :mad:

 

 

They were not surprised in the least by the decision because Surbaugh hinted around at "making changes" when at the meet and greet. Also commented how Surbaugh never used the term "Boys," and "men," but always "youth" and "children." That commented was mentioned previously, and I noticed that since Surbaugh became CSE, he never uses the terms above.

 

Then came the abruptness of the town halls with their slanted questions. Grant you I'm dense at times. But even I got it. and was ticked off.

 

Then add the "family Scouting" and "family camping" campaign. Several of us pointed out the ridiculousness of the "Camping with the Fam" advertising campaign for Supply, the article in Scouting magazine, and a bunch of the girl related merchandise BSA started coming out with, specifically the pink and purple t-shirts. All that takes prep time. Several months or more prep time. I remember an article on my council was not published until 9 months after the event took place.

 

Then you got the July 2017 applications.

 

So yes, I believe I have been lied to. and I am ticked.

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