walk in the woods

@ParkMan The structure of your argument makes sense, but, I wonder if it isn't incomplete. Another analysis goes something like this: Current costs for Susie Cub Scout, $200, Tommy Tenderfoot $500, Parent Leader $300 (let's say) for a total of $1000. Assuming a $33/person increase that becomes effectively $1100. The question isn't whether a family can absorb the 10% relative increase, rather, the question being prompted is if the BSA is providing $1100/year worth of value.

My son was non-verbal due to his autism until he was almost 4. We used sign language to help him communicate, but, it wasn't standard ASL. Rather, we used word-order. I'm not an expert but, as I understand it, when you see the signers along side a presentation they aren't signing a word-for-word translation. Rather the signing has a different structure. Word-order is basically learning the signs for "Be" and "Prepared" and using them in that order. Anyway, I think this is the book we used. It was 20 years ago now so the memory is foggy.

Language is but a social construct having no intrinsic meaning. 😎

I'm also rural. When folks look at the cost scouting I'd argue they aren't comparing it to other youth programs, but rather a cart of groceries or tanks of gas to heat the house.

Golfing, I'll probably go golfing. Or maybe camping with friends just for fun. Maybe guitar lessons.

I for one would very much like the G2SS be a one-pager that says, use common sense, talk to your parents, follow the oath and law. But, it doesn't. It's however many hundred pages with inclusions by reference, appendicies, and pictures with circles and arrows. Since that's what we have to work with, we'd like them to be clear and consistent. Here on this board you have what I'm going to assume is an honest question asked by a typical scouter. The responses to that question are showing some confusion with the wording of the various documents and web pages and local practices. Nobody wants more documentation, but a simple answer would be awful nice. Does overnighter mean just one night? It's a yes or no question. So, how bout you add some value and answer it.

This is our experience as well. People were going to buy the Christmas wreaths anyway, and now they get to support scouting along the way. Everybody wins.

That's fine, but how many potential members are walking away as a result? I don't know the answer but it's >0.

Dodge balls, water balloons, and sticks, but only if sharp or if the scouts might point them at other scouts while saying pew pew.

Maybe the BSA is playing 4 dimensional chess. See, if they get the rumor mill started that annual dues are going to $100, then announce an increase from $33 to $67, everybody will be relieved even though the dues doubled! Brilliant!

Who could have predicted this? Interesting trick bag to be in. We have the best possible safety rules according to experts. Our rules are inconvenient to this family. So we're going to bend our rules. Is that because we don't care about the child's safety or are our rules NOT the best possible? What happens if that pack fails to recruit female leaders? Does the exception become the rule? Do we ignore the experts or kick the girl out or have dad lie about her sexuality? The other thing I found interesting was the fathers unwillingness to pursue other options. I understand his position but it highlights the reality that people won't be as flexible to take their kids to available units. Rather they'll force the BSAs hand.

Yep. It's never been about gays or girls or atheists. It's a postmodern requirement to "deconstruct" everything that contributes to what they perceive as immoral power hierarchies. The BSA, by kowtowing, has signed it's own death warrant. They will drive traditionalists from the program and pin their hopes on people who would rather see it dismantled.

I should add BSA has a relationship with the NRA BSA teaches scouts to murder and butcher fish BSA promotes scout Sunday thereby disenfranchising their open/closeted atheist members to my second list of bullets above. The list is almost endless...

While I appreciate your optimism I think this is simply naive. First, no matter what settlement comes out of the bankruptcy, it will be belittled in the MSM and progressive media as insufficient. The BSA will be portrayed as a greedy organization trying to short-change the victims by declaring bankruptcy. Second, I can think of at least 4 additional membership fights to come (in no particular order): Local option for fully co-ed packs and troops because separate but equal isn't working Mandatory fully co-ed packs and troops because nobody should be allowed to discriminate Removal of the DRP, changing of the Oath/Law local option to allow atheists, because it's already happening anyway Mandatory allowance of atheists and changes to Oath/Law because nobody should be allowed to discriminate One can imagine all sorts of additional issues the "cause" will take up: BSA isn't doing enough to recruit girls (or insert your favorite intersectional group here) BSA advancement structure is a remnant of the hierarchical male power structure and has to change BSA is still utilizing the Catholic Church (or Baptists or whatever) to deliver their programs, they haven't really changed at all BSA discriminates against "trans" by having boy/girl handbooks rather than using truly neutral pronouns language BSA discriminates against urban youth by having outdoor requirements (stop me if you've heard this one before) etc. The problem with "cause" movements is once they've met their initial goals, they have to seek out new targets or cease to exist. As long as the BSA is standing, it will be a target, no matter how many concessions it makes to the postmodern mob. Why do I believe the BSA will continue to be a target you ask? Here's why. Your discussion is a BSA redemption story, but, redemption is a two-part processes. The "sinner" has to sincerely repent, and, the aggrieved/offended has to sincerely forgive. An by forgive I'm not talking about "that's ok but hold a grudge" forgiveness. It's a "thank you for acknowledging the hurt, I believe you are sincere, let's rebuild our relationship without reference to the previous sin(s)" forgiveness. The current zeitgeist, progressive and populist, isn't exactly overflowing with that kind of forgiveness. Until that kind of forgiveness is available, donors aren't coming back, nor is membership, nor is "societal opinion" of the BSA. The BSA will probably survive, but, it will be unrecognizable.

Public vs private institutions. If the organization burns taxpayer dollars it's a public meeting

part of the big deal is the authorization is open ended as long as you are a volunteer, and, it gives the BSA permission to share any info they gather. Sam Houston has a link to the form at http://www.samhoustonbsa.org/national-recharter-update-2019-09-19. If I sign this form in December, then leave the BSA, the odds that they'll quit running background checks on me and destroy the information they gather on me are largely indistinguishable from zero.

@karunamom3, since this popped back up I'm wondering what you heard from the Masonic Lodge district and what you decided to do?

In my council the school night fliers had already been printed the last time. To their credit the council ate the extra costs. Our school nights signed kids up for 16 months in previous years. Should have suspected something was up when this year we only signed kids up for 4 months.

With all due respect to National I call BS. The increased insurance cost isn't a surprise nor is the departure of LDS. This decision should have been made and announced months ago so units could plan and be honest with their parents. Instead they wait until after fall recruiting is done?

Sea scouts wear what are effectively Navy E6 and below dress whites. What's to object to? I think these boys look damn sharp.

Many people would use the same words to describe doctors that perform elective abortions. In either case one is making a moral judgement about another persons character. So questions. Why would you consider allowing the spouse but not the doctor? Even if the spouse didn't do the procedure how do you know they don't support the practice? How likely is the doctor or the spouse to make a run to the press with a BSA discriminates story? Is your CO willing to endure the s***storm that would surround? Are there other parents/scouts in your pack of similar religious/ethinic background that might find the decision to exclude the doctor troubling?

I'd not be so sure of that. Here are a couple relevant Q&As from the Youth Protection FAQ (the second is directly relevant and characteristically vague): Q. The Barriers to Abuse states “One-on-one contact between adult leaders and youth members is prohibited both inside and outside of Scouting.” What does ‘inside and outside of Scouting’ mean? A. The BSA has adopted its youth protection policies for the safety and well-being of its members. These policies primarily protect youth members; however, they also serve to protect adult leaders. All parents and caregivers should understand that our leaders are to abide by these safeguards. Registered leaders must follow these guidelines with all Scouting youth outside of Scouting activities. There are careers that may require one-on-one contact with youth, however aside from those roles, volunteers must abide by the youth protection policies of the BSA even outside of Scouting activities. This policy is in place to prevent abuse in and out of Scouting. Adults should never be alone with youth who are not their children. Q. Does this mean my son cannot have a sleepover if I am the only adult present? A. Yes, if any of the children other than your own child is a Scout, we strongly encourage all adults to use the Barriers to Abuse in and out of Scouting.

There will be a lot fewer pros, or at least staff, in the Western Region...:( Back of the envelope calculations. I know the church had their own structure but just play along. Dues: Net loss of 300,000 scouts (400,000 LDS boys - 100,000 new girls) is approximately $10.5M ($33 dues plus $2 insurance) Units: 37000 plus LDS units - 2000 new girl units is approximately $1.4M at $40/unit So if membership stays around 2MM scouts/scouters that's $5 or $6 increase just to stay even for dues/insurance. LDS units are about 1/3 of all units (might be more based on the 2018 report to the nation), so a $20 increase in charter fees wouldn't be a stretch. Now, none of that takes into account the impact on the Supply Division or camps; or the pending bankruptcy and the adverse effect that will have on all of the above. I hope I'm wrong.

You'll get a lot of opinions here, so here's mine. My pack is about the same size as yours, 20-ish. We don't bother with the Den/Pack meeting structure. We have all the Dens meet on the 1st and 3rd Wednesdays in the same place. After the opening the Dens break out to do their own thing then come back together for closing. The Webelos often meet separately but not necessarily. We do pack activities once a month or so. Sometimes they are separate from the regular meetings, sometimes they are the regular meetings. I'd worry less about what the books says is the appropriate structure and figure out what your leaders/parents can commit to doing. Build from there. Your show and sell participation experience matches mine. It's one of the reasons we skip popcorn.

I think it was fall the last time fees were increased. Doesn't the executive board/committee meet about this time of year?