acco40

First, it is my understanding that all Webelos Socuts are Cub Scouts but of course not all Cub Scouts are Webelos Scouts. If that interpretation is used, Cub Scouts may go camping, even in Michigan :-) without the adult leaders having received BALOO training. But, only as a Webelos den and not as a pack activity. Each Webelos Scout must have a responsible adult assigned (does NOT need to be his parent) but the den leader may only have responsibility for their child. Now for some definitions to keep our terms straight (from G2SS): The Boy Scouts of America has established the following guidelines for its members' participation in camping activities: Overnight camping by Tiger, Wolf, and Bear Cub Scout dens as dens is not approved and certificates of liability insurance will not be provided by the Boy Scouts of America. Tiger Cubs may participate in boy-parent excursions, day camps, pack overnighters, or council-organized family camping. Wolf and Bear Cub Scouts and Webelos Scouts may participate in a resident overnight camping program operating under BSA National Camping School-trained leadership and managed by the council. A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by an adult. In most cases, the Webelos Scout will be under the supervision of his parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of a parent-approved adult. Joint Webelos den-troop campouts including the parents of the Webelos Scouts are encouraged to strengthen ties between the pack and troop. Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips. If a well-meaning leader brings along a child who does not meet these age guidelines, disservice is done to the unit because of distractions often caused by younger children. A disservice is also done to the child, who is not trained to participate in such an activity and who, as a nonmember of the group, may be ignored by the older campers. Family Camping Family camping: an outdoor camping experience, other than resident camping, that involves Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, or Venturing program elements in overnight settings with two or more family members, including at least one BSA member of that family. Parents are responsible for the supervision of their children, and Youth Protection guidelines apply. Recreational family camping Recreational family camping: when Scouting families camp as a family unit outside of an organized program. It is a nonstructured camping experience, but is conducted within a Scouting framework on local council-owned or -managed property. Local councils may have family camping grounds available for rental at reasonable rates. Other resources may include equipment, information, and training. Cub Scout Overnight Opportunities Cub Scouts may experience overnight activities in venues other than accredited resident camping. There are two categories of Cub Scout overnighters: Council-Organized Family Camp Council-organized family camps are overnight events involving more than one pack. The local council provides all of the elements of the outdoor experience, such as staffing, food service, housing, and program. These are often referred to as Parent/Pal or Adventure weekends. Council-organized family camps should be conducted by trained leaders at sites approved by the local council. In most cases, the youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult. Overnight activities involving more than one pack must be approved by the council. Council-organized family camps must be conducted in accordance with established standards as given in National Standards for Council-Organized Family Camping, No. 13-408. Pack Overnighters These are pack-organized overnight events involving more than one family from a single pack, focused on age-appropriate Cub Scout activities and conducted at council-approved locations (councils use Pack Overnighter Site Approval Form, No. 13-508). If nonmembers (siblings) participate, the event must be structured accordingly to accommodate them. BSA health and safety and youth protection guidelines apply. In most cases, each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult. At least one adult on a pack overnighter must have completed Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO, No. 34162) to properly understand the importance of program intent, youth protection guidelines, health and safety, site selection, age-appropriate activities, and sufficient adult participation. Permits for campouts shall be issued locally. Packs use Local Tour Permit Application, No. 34426.

This case, suing the BSA, as well as the original case against the referenced Scoutmaster is all new to me. Also, I'm definitely no law expert. However, if the boy did have consensual sex with the Scoutmaster, I think the BSA is saying how could they, as an organization, have helped prevent it? I don't think they are claiming, as the NY Post states, that the victim is to blame. Look at it this way. I have the legal authority and responsibility to protect my minor children. However, if my minor child has consensual sex with one of his high school teachers, at school, is the parent to blame? Is the child? Is the teacher? Is the school? My view for legal blame would be no (parent), no (child), yes (teacher), and yes (school). In the New York case, the BSA is sort of in the role of the parent. Now, for an off the wall question, how can the CO be both a church and a synogogue? (I interpreted "based" as in Troop 666, a group based in a church and synagogue on the Upper East Side as meaning the Charter Organization is a church and synagogue.)

I can think of only one reason not to do it - cost. Like much in life, they are not free. However, to me the cost is minimal considering the benefit. Well, maybe I should rephrase that - I have two sons and one daughter. The boys, still active as youth, have both earled all ranks up to and including Life Scout and I have yet been awarded a parent's pin. Now, my wife proudly displays all of her 12 Boy Scout and 10 Cub Scout pins! There is an old myth that all rank pins go to mom except for Eagle which is reserved for dad. ;-)

acco40, What is the difference if I determine an arbitrary percentage to the expectations for POR's (which is undefined as it is) or use the "Demonstrate Scout Spirit" as a catch-all? At least with the percentage, the Scout has a number; he knows, in writing, what is expected. Not trying to determine what is in my head when I decide what Scout Spirit entails. We, as Scoutmasters, may not add additional requirements - such as an attendance percentage for rank requirements. However, we are empowered to make the call on if a Scout met the "serve actively ..." portion in his POR. There is a fine line between the difference. To give guidance to the boys on what our expectations are for "serve actively" we may include an attendance percentage but it may only be a guideline - not a requirement. Also, as hard as it may seem, don't worry about what parents feel. During a Scoutmaster conference, I have conversed with a many a Scout on what his definintion of "serve actively" is, and they are usually much harder on themselves as I would be. They are also very good at self evalutation.

First in the interest of disclosure - I'm a registered Unit Commissioner (to three Cub Scout Packs) and a registered Scoutmaster. Yes, I know that bends the rules (Unit Commissioner should be my primary position and I admit it is not.) Next a few facts: 1) the Scoutmaster is in charge of the advancement program of the troop (advantage Scoutmaster) 2) Scoutmasters (or anyone else) may not set up additional requirements like attend 50% of the outings. (advantage Commissioner) Now, the requirement states active (in troop and patrol) and the Scoutmaster has the authority to determine what that means. He may also determine "shows Scout Spirit" compliance. In our troop, I try to lay out guidelines for what I view as active. This includes attending a majority of troop and patrol outings. Is this a hard and fast rule? No. But if the Scout does not approach me or discuss his individual circumstances and does not attend at least 50% of troop and patrol outings he does not fulfill these requirements in my eyes. However, as a Unit COmmissioner, if a Scoutmaster asked me if he could impose a 50% attendance requirement as a condition of advancement I would say (correctly), that no he may not.(This message has been edited by acco40)

There's a bathroom on the right. (with apologies to John Fogerty.)

I don't think the workplace should be used to support breast cancer awareness, habitat for humanity, local sports teams, youth soccer teams, high school marching bands or Scouts. Now, I have Scouting "things" at my desk including a picture of me, my wife, daughter and sons all in our Scouting uniforms. I also have a nice picture I took of the "Tooth of Time" has started many conversations. I've worn my uniform in public many times, but always to/from or during some sort of Scouting activity. So it is not from an embarrassment factor that I don't think it is appropriate to wear at work.

Our council does not charge for MBCs either. YP advised, not required. MBC training, again, highly advised but not reqired. Background check - yes.

We wanted to do paintball as a troop but found out the G2SS did not allow it. We decided to go "marking" instead. ;-)

I guess the question John in KC - is a registered merit badge counselor a Scouter? My take is this - Scouters pay a registration fee. Merit badge counselors do not although they still fill out paperwork (register) and I believe go through a background check.

Anyone who wishes to be a MB counselor inside the unit, since MB counselors must be Scouters. John in KC - I believe you are mistaken. MB counselors do not need to be registered Scouters. That is, they have to be registered, but pay not fees and are not considered "Scouters" in the traditional sense. I have a neighbor, a great fisherman, who has no children in Scouts and is a troop MB counselor for our district. Not a Scouter but he is a MB counselor.

One simple requirement for OA elections that seems to be forgotten by most is the following: Approval of the Scoutmaster. I'm just guessing but if the Scout left the troop for a year or so and had not been back in Scouting for quite 2 years maybe the SM did not give approval.

Sometimes, as a male, I ask myself why would anyone want to be a Scoutmaster! Scouting has changed and I leave it to others to debate whether it is for the better or not. One of the methods of Scouting used to be adult male association, now it is adult association. Was this done out of necessity or as an improvement to the program? I've known rotten male Scoutmasters and excellent female Scoutmasters. For the LDS folks, Scouting is the church's youth program for males and thus have male leaders. What is the primary function of a SM? To teach leadership in my book. Females may fulfill that role quite nicely. Now, should the SM be someone the boys emulate? In a way yes. The SM should have impeccable character (but none of us do!). Do boys emulate adult males more easily than adult females? Yes. A similar argument can be made for a predominantly black troop, should the SM be black? Maybe "should" isn't the right term but I think it would be a plus, all other things being equal. So the same goes for gender. Everything else being equal, yes, a male SM is preferable but obviously not required. (I seem to be parroting Barry, again!)

First let's look at goals: BSA/Council/District - have 100% of Cub Scouts become Boy Scouts Pack - varies Webelos Den Leader - varies Scouts - varies Parents - varies Troop - have 100% of Cub Scouts become Boy Scouts (good ones join their troop, bad ones, other troops ;-) So, I think the Pack, Webelos Den Leader, Scouts and Parents need to judge what they want. Ideally, all should be open about continuing on to Boy Scouts. When I was a WDL, I had an interest in havingthe boys continue on with Boy Scouts and had tehm exposed to Boy Scouts as a Bear den with Den Chiefs and we had troops help out with join Scouting nights. As first year Webelos, we attended summer camp which was staffed by the same staff that was used for Boy Scout summer camp - more exposure. In the fall of the second year of Webelos, we had outings with Boy Scout troops. The majority was interested in moving on and liked the idea. Those who were not interested, skipped some of those activities. Another consideration is the Pack to Troop(s) relationships. In my area, very few Packs have a strong relationship with a single Troop. For instance, in our troop, I have boys from six different packs and in the five mile radius of our Charter Organization is somewhere like 10 different troops! So, to answer you question - first judge the interest of the boys in your den. Make sure they are aware of the Boy Scout program and the differences wrt Cub Scouts. Then tailor your program based on that interest.

I'm with Barry on this one (and most of what he says!). Here is my situation. When I became Scoutmaster we had about 12 boys in two patrols. The next year we added three boys (crossover) and one from another troop (second year). We added them to existing patrols. The next year we had sixteen Webelos join - eight from one pack/den and eight from another pack/den. Easy solution - two NSPs. The next year we had four new boys and some attrition so we added the new boys to what were the NSPs. Now, we have three more boys joining, all from different packs and our existing patrols are a patrol of 3 (all with five years experience), a patrol of four (5, 4, 4, 4 years), and two patrols of 8 (all with 2 years experience except for three boys with one year) and an SPL and ASPL with three years of experience. With the three new boys - 28 boys, in all now, I didn't want them to go to the younger patrols, they would be too big, and didn't want them to be added to the patrol of 3 (that would then consist of the three oldest with the three youngest boys) so I made a swag an four patrols of seven (I based it totally on age but did not tell the boys). I then instructed them that they were free to change patrols with the stipulation of patrol size staying consistent at seven. Well it took all night and much haggling but they worked it out. One patrol now exists of all high school age kids. The other three patrols are roughly age based with a few exceptions. Next week, new elections for SPL (who will appoint his ASPL) and then PL elections! Again, I hated to "bust up" the patrols (not good for patrol unity) but it is imperative that the boys take ownership of who is in their patrol. They cam away feeling that it was their decision, not mine, on who their patrol mates were going to be. Now, they are already planning new flags, cheers, etc. Just like adults, some were resistant to change but by giving them ownership and empowerment - they are accepting and soon will be relishing their new found make-up. God, I sound like I took one to many team building seminars at work!

Scout Law (courteous and kind) trumps method (uniform) every time. However, they are NOT mutually exclusive. For those that feel free to come into a unit and critique adults and or Scouts who have uniform errors would you comment about the troops advancement? Now, as a UC, I've not been asked to perform a unit inspection and I don't comment on the uniforming of the adults or Scouts unless asked. As a Scoutmaster, I do instruct the boys on proper uniform. Now what to do with a boy who wears his AOL above his shirt pocket? His excuse, that is where his mom sewed it and she doesn't have time to do it again. What to do with a son who likes to wear dads "beaver" shoulder loops he picked up in Canada instead of his red ones? What to do with another son who refuses to wear the green/red socks? Be careful what battles one fights!

The vast majority of my CDs are contained in the old Jewel Box type case and have a half inch or so spine width and a label which has a spine section too. The newer thinner CD cases have virtually no width so yes, when stored similar to books in a book case, no way to tell what is what. So now with various flash memory devices (i.e. memory sticks), CDs, PDAs, and such to store data it does get confusing. I keep my music, data, and video (photos) CDs separate.

Just like an Eagle COH, a Wood Badge Ceremony is planned by the recipient. As such, you can have your grandmother present you with your beads, tartan, etc. For myself, I had my Troop Guide, another friend who is a Troop Guide and my wife present some of the items. I think I read somewhere it is preferred that at least one "Wood Badger" is involved in the ceremony. I used to be a Bear ...

I held both positions simultaneously! At the time, I viewed my WDL position as primary. It was more work because I was the leader in charge so to speak. Depending on your personality, do you like to be in control or more in the background? The positions are vastly different. For WDL, you are teaching Scouting skills - i.e. activity pins, as well as planning the outings. Do you camp as a Webelos den? As an ASM (more properly - SA) you may have totally different duties. Are you more of an instructor of scouting skills? For example do you have expertise in First Aid, outdoor cooking, backpacking, etc.? Are you assigned to a particular patrol? If you are an SA for an NSP (new scout patrol) your position should be very similar to WDL (however, NSP should NOT be Webelos III!). You may be given a duty such as Quartermaster as an SA. You would work closely with the ASPL and youth QM in that position. Look at your strengths and what YOU want to do. Don't look at what is needed so much. Just like your paying job (if you have one), you do best when you do what you like.

I highly doubt that the national council would require training of the SMs. I know that many councils mistakenly make training a requirement but I have a better suggestion, make training better and they will come! Now, did you know that with respect to outings (camping), Webelos Den Leaders, Packs, Crews - all need training (not just youth protection but specific training as it relates to outings) before teh BSA allows them to have an outing. The only program which does not - why Boy Scouts of course!

CalicoPenn and/or fotoscout: Please let me know where it says a Unit Commissioner may not be a registered leader in the unit they are assigned? It would help if "on the BSA web site" was not referenced but more detail used. I do know that for those who are a UC, that should be one's primary position.

Kudu (Mr. Horn?) - If one uses a patrol of "peers" having a PL sign-off can become problematic. We have PLs who are maybe 2nd Class in their second year of Scouting with their fellow 12/13 yr old seventh grade peers. Many of his patrol mates are 2nd Class and 1st Class Scouts. Also, having sign-off privilege based on rank can help defeat patrol unity. I don't like having a Life Scout from the "beavers" signing requirements for 2nd Class Scouts of the "badgers." Not a big deal but not optimal in my book. (Troop Guides are the exception.) Now, one of the best ways to really learn a skill is to teach it! So having a Scout teach a skill and then signing-off is great in my book - regardless of age, rank, patrol membership or whatever. Now for a real mundane question - on Saturday March 11 (12th?), a Scout comes to you, the Scoutmaster, and informs you that he made a "useful camp gadget" on his last outing on February 18. You did not attend but asked the leader in charge and he verified that yes, Johnny made a towel rack via lashings. You are inclined to sign-off this requirement - do you date it March 11 or Feb. 18? My preference is to date on Feb. 18 because during a review, I know that camp gadgets are made a camp (not in a troop meeting, not at home, etc.). If I check the calendar, I know that March 11 was NOT a camp date but Feb. 18 was. Comments?

Ah abortion, let's gravitate to something less inflammatory than talking about religion! OGE, one thing abortion is definitely not (in most cases) is murder. Murder is a legal term. To commit murder is a crime. Obtaining or providing an abortion is legal in many states so by definition it is not murder. Is it killing a human? Is it immoral? Is it wrong? All good questions. But is it murder - no (Black Hills area excluded).

"I'm a little bit uncomfortable with the idea of the government using its money to compel speech." Whoa. Where have you been living for the past 50 years? I don't know why you feel this is a "speech" issue but the federal government has been using the almighty dollar as a "stick" for many years in the form of federal highway funds (must have seat belt laws), air quality standards, etc. States are not legally compelled to do something (i.e. it is not illegal) but the federal government reserves the right to withhold funding if states don't comply with certain issues. Is it fair? Well, in our country I think what is considered a "right" and what is considered a "privilege" has become blurred for many myopic individuals over the past few decades.

Hey, the same individual who wrote about Hwy 61 told me that God was on our side too. He (Dylan not God) must know something because he has been Jewish, "born again" Christian, and then Jewish again! Oh my name it is nothin' My age it means less The country I come from Is called the Midwest I's taught and brought up there The laws to abide And that land that I live in Has God on its side. Oh the history books tell it They tell it so well The cavalries charged The Indians fell The cavalries charged The Indians died Oh the country was young With God on its side. Oh the Spanish-American War had its day And the Civil War too Was soon laid away And the names of the heroes I's made to memorize With guns in their hands And God on their side. Oh the First World War, boys It closed out its fate The reason for fighting I never got straight But I learned to accept it Accept it with pride For you don't count the dead When God's on your side. When the Second World War Came to an end We forgave the Germans And we were friends Though they murdered six million In the ovens they fried The Germans now too Have God on their side. I've learned to hate Russians All through my whole life If another war starts It's them we must fight To hate them and fear them To run and to hide And accept it all bravely With God on my side. But now we got weapons Of the chemical dust If fire them we're forced to Then fire them we must One push of the button And a shot the world wide And you never ask questions When God's on your side. In a many dark hour I've been thinkin' about this That Jesus Christ Was betrayed by a kiss But I can't think for you You'll have to decide Whether Judas Iscariot Had God on his side. So now as I'm leavin' I'm weary as Hell The confusion I'm feelin' Ain't no tongue can tell The words fill my head And fall to the floor If God's on our side He'll stop the next war.