acco40

As a moderator I have done some edits on posts. My edits are usually "light handed." That is, I will sometimes correct grammar, spelling, etc. especially if it adds clarity to the post. I do not wish to point out those changes. For example, the misuse of "then" and "than" seems to be rampant in speech these days and is slowly creeping into what we write. I see no purpose stating a change in a post for that. I don't quite follow why the protocol suggested by Trevorum would aid readers in understanding the context. Is it just prurient interest? Someone please explain. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

And I for one would like to see those references on-line!

Most of the "talk radio" folks are more in the entertainment business and not that interested in a real debate of the issues (Limbaugh, Hannity, Frankin, O'Reilly). They smear, ridicule, and use hyperbole with the best of them. Perhaps many of our posters are emulating what they see and hear? After all, if it made good bucks and brought them fame it must be okay.

This is what bugs me about our country. If the following is true, "Benjamin, was taunted by classmates and humiliated by a Boy Scout recruiter in front of other students", then Mr. Scalise should not be asking the schools to bar recruitment but should take the Boy Scout recruiter and classmates to task. Merlyn makes a good point, I would not want my children's classtime ate up by endless appeals by various groups for membership but a blanket "no" to all doesn't make sense either. Also, can someone define "non-religious humanists" for me (and please, don't tell me it is defined as more than one non-religious humanist). (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Another bunch of retired generals have some salty comments for Bush II and Rumsfeld. Retired generals, just like you and me, are entitled to their opinions. Most of our service men and women understand such phrases as "freedom is not free" and "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." However, those who have seen combat truly know the hell on Earth that war creates and are none to gung-ho on continuing that cycle unless absolutely necessary. Now I wholeheartedly agree with the general about teaching our youth history, respect especially of themselves) but if anything, I think we may need a "war on apathy" with the majority of our youth today. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

I think just as some have stated, Eugene Winkler vs. Donald Rumsfeld has a lot to do with it. It is awarded for "distinguished service to youth. Each year, this award for truly noteworthy and extraordinary service of a national or worldwide character is made to men and women associated with Scouting and to others not directly associated with Scouting. This award, Scouting's highest commendation, recognizes the invaluable contributions that outstanding American men and women render to youth. The service must be national in character and can be directly connected with the BSA or independent of the movement." Some who have been awarded include: Hank Aaron and Yogi Berra, Walt Disney, Bob Hope, Jimmy Stewart, Charles Schultz, Presidents (Coolidge, Hoover, Roosevelt (Teddy), FDR, Eisenhower (before he was President), Truman, LBJ, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush I and Clinton), Reagan (Nancy not Ronald was one of the rare women to receive the award) , Irving Berlin, Vince Lambardi, and the unkown Scout.

I marched in our towns Memorial Day parade on Monday with my two Boy Scout sons. I was sad to say less than 25% of the Scouts from our troop showed up. It was about the tenth year in a row my family has participated. However, I fall more in the "Andy Rooney" camp wrt Memorial Day. None of the soldiers, sailors, marines or airmen "gave their lives" for our country. Their lives were taken from them. I'd like to see less effort "remembering" and more on how we (all of humanity) can prevent the lives of the young people whose lives may be taken future if we can't figure out how to prevent this ghastly phenomenon we call war.

Longhaul is correct, a boy may start a merit badge before meeting with his MB counselor, before getting Scoutmaster approval and even before becoming a Boy Scout! Is it recommended? No. Is it wise? No. One of the badges I counsel is Personal Fitness. I've had many a Scout complete twelve weeks of exercises - except for stretching. Or, complete with out first getting a baseline. When I ask the Scout not to start until he meets with me it is more "wisdom" for his protection than levying an additional requirement on him. Now, to stir the pot, how does one interpret the following: Explain to your merit badge counselor verbally or in writing what personal fitness means to you, including ... May a MB counselor choose which method (verbal or written) or is it the at the discretion of the Scout? Let's say, an 11 year old Scout has a written explanation that seems to be written by a Harvard scholar and when questioned verbally by the MB counselor the Scout just looks at his shoes and mumbles, "I dunno." Has the Scout fulfilled this requirement? Similarly, what about: Have your parent, counselor, or other adult take and record the following measurements: Can the MB counselor "demand" that he be present when these measurements are taken? Is that adding to the requirements? Before we cry wolf about "adding to the requirements" I feel we need to give the MB counselor some leeway on how he/she wants to conduct teaching.

"Some Mom's don't sew or don't have the time. I don't have any Scouts in my troop who are mothers. Does anyone else other than AvidSM? Trevorum - I've worn my "Me and My Guy" patch as a temporary patch. It is somewhat of an iside joke and somewhat of a political statement. I "earned" the patch by taking my daughter to a Girl Scout day camp last year.

Some use "uniform police" as a pejorative phrase. Others do not. If a Scout was attempting to tie and knot and did it incorrectly would you point it out? Why? Knot tyeing is not one of the aims of Scouting. If a Scout tied a bowline knot incorrectly I would not verbally reprimand him and heap ridicule his way. However, I would possibly show him (or have someone else show him) how to do it again, try another teaching method, etc. I have a boy in the troop who has his AOL patch sewed above his pocket. I discreetly pointed out to him where it belongs. His attitude was he didn't care where it was on his uniform and besides, his mother sewed it on, not him! He hasn't attempted to put it in the correct place. He is a first class scout going on his third year in the troop. This may become an issue wrt advancement. Do I hold a grudge? Is it fair? One of the things we ask for boys who hold a position of responsibility, like this young boy, is to demonstrate proper uniforming. An unwillingness to do so shows me something about the Scout that in my view is not "obedient" and does not demonstrate leadership. Is this unreasonable? Take the guy who emerges from the restroom with toilet paper on his shoe. Is pointing that out considered rude? It all depends in the manner in which it is done. I remember an old "truth or Consequences" show where a female (plant) and male contestant were in the green room waiting to appear on stage. The female was wearing a skirt with her slip obviously showing. She would comment to the man, "How do I look?" before going before the camera. The wives of the males were asked to guess if their husband would point out to the young ladies if their slip was showing or not. Remember, this was about 40 - 50 years ago so societal norms were different. What does this have to do with the "uniform police?" Well, I for one would like to know if I am doing something incorrectly with my uniform is a discreet way. I do know of some "errors" I have (the adult Scouters wear a patrol emblem) but I always try to have a few shirts with "zero defects" and would welcome information that would make that a reality.

I see a big problem only if what I'm reading is interpreted correctly. If not, I'll issue the proverbial Rosanne Rosanna Dana response - never mind. The following statement "I'm talking about items the Scout has prepared and have brought to me to present to ANY MB counselor for the first time." has me concerned. When a Scout calls me to ask that I counsel him on a merit badge the first thing I do is schedule a meeting ASAP and tell the boy not to start just yet. At the first meeting I go over the requirements and tell him my expectations. For myself, I do accept merit badge worksheets (www.meritbadge.com) but I also tell the Scouts that if a requirement states "tell, demonstrate, discuss, explain" etc. I expect just that - not a paper. A Scout should not meet with his counselor for the first time to show him/her "what he has done." Setting expectations which are clearly understood by the Scout and MB counselor go a long way in alleviating misunderstandings later. That is why MB classes and such don't always work smoothly.

Stuffed animal - if your child sleeps with a stuffed animal and you think it would help him at summer camp here is how to avoid the ridicule that may happen if the other boys find out. Before he departs and without telling your son, unroll his sleeping bag. Stuff the animal all the way into the end of the bag and re-roll it up. When you son goes to sleep, he will find it there, know it is there, probably know mom or dad put it there thinking of him and his tent mate and the other boys are none the wiser. My soon to be Eagle Scout with close to 200 nights of camping, Brotherhood member of the OA, soon to begin his sixth summer camp and teach NYLT as the SPL - was a homesick summer camp attendee as a ten year old. He went with the troop on their, March, April and May campout. I thought I (as an SA) could make the summer camp outing (did not make the earlier three) but work got in the way. It was only years later that I heard he had some trouble at summer camp his first year. It is a rite of passage for many. In my age group, the first day of kindergarten was a traumatic step for many. Now, with so many kids warehoused in day care, pre-school, etc. separation anxiety from mom (usually) doesn't occur the first day of kindergarten but at a much earlier age for many. Homesickness usually doesn't occur until the second or third night and usually is over by the fourth night. I agree with earlier posters that the worst thing a parent can do is to tell the boy they may drop in on such and such a date or time and then be late or be a no-show. I've seen kids devastated if a parent arrives just a half-hour late. I've also waiting in the camp parking lot (an open field) with a lone Scout (yes, another leader was with me as well as my two impatient sons) for hours waiting for a forgetful parent, step-parent, grandparent, to pick them up. What to tell a first year Scout when he asks, "How come my mom isn't here yet and all of the other boys went home over an hour ago?"(This message has been edited by acco40)

Scouting can't simply let Charter Organizations allow atheists without other alterations to the Scouting program. The declaration of religious principle would need to change. The 12th point of the Scout law would need to be changed or removed. The Cub Scout promise and Boy Scout Oath would need to be reworded. Now, I'm not saying that a major disaster would follow if the above changes were made but Scouting would surely be different.

Video games are not addicting to me (my kids are sucking me in to Guitar Hero however). It's those darn internet forums that suck up all my time! :-)

Are we debating what we like, don't like, agree with or don't agree with or what we, as Scout Leaders, have promised to do? As a registered Scout Leader, I made a promise to deliver the Scouting program to our youth. Part of that program is following the G2SS. It states that persons of the opposite sex, who are unmarried, should not share a tent. My duty is then to follow that guideline regardless if I think the couple in question is right, wrong, moral, immoral, amoral or hockey players. It really doesn't matter what I think.

Let's see for Cub Scouts there is a Den Leader Training Award, Cub Scouters' Training Award, Cubmaster Training Award, Tiger Leader Training Award, and the Webelos Den Leader Training Award. If a committee member he needs a tenure of two years. Cub Scouts (Tiger to Webelos/AOL) is usually 4.5 year program. If he doesn't have the tenure, he is out of luck. However, like many stated, there are awards such as the Unit Award of Appreciation (I think that is BSA wide not just my council but I'm not sure) and others as stated in earlier posts.

Every boy deserves a competent leader. Trained or not. Don't get me wrong, I believe in training. I've Commissioner Basic, Commissioners College (Bachelors), Leader Specific (for Den Leader & Scoutmaster), Youth Protection (at least a dozen times!), First Aid, CPR, Wood Badge, Safety Afloat, Basic Leader Training, Fast Start, New Leader Essentials, Opik (cold weather), Introduction to Outdoor Skills, Various University of Scouting courses, Outdoor Leader Specific for Webelos Leaders (OWL), Safe Swim Defense, Leave No Trace, Troop Committee Challenge and a few I'm sure I've forgotten. However, training in and of itself does not make a great leader. I've also never seen training hurt a leader. That said, I'd love to see training become mandatory for specific positions. I'd also like to see a "test" similar to the Red Cross First Aid and CPR training classes that make not just attendance but the demonstration of some level of competence a necessary part of being trained. And, because I love a challenge ... 1.When is a SM signature required on a MB card? as soon as the Scout puts his name and MB choice on the card (before he starts). White card only has one place. 2.Who is expected to initiate starting a MB? Scout 3.What does the BSA say about group MB sessions? only for limited reasons. Advancement Guide is great resource (for example troop meeting MB classes are not a good idea!) 4.How many adults are required on a Patrol Campout? 0 5.How many adults are required at a Den meeting or PLC meeting? 1 (unless at an outdoor activity/outing) 6.Pick the best answer: A _______ is not an authorized scouting activity. A. Paint Ball, B. Riding a Jet Ski, C. Laser Tag. D. All the above, E. None of the Above unless done with fireworks ;-) Now for some harder questions: 7.) Your troop is planning an outing and you have invited a Webelos Den to accompany your troop. Some of the Webelos parents want to attend and bring along a younger (Bear Scout) and daughter (11 years old). Is that allowed? Should they be added to the tour permit? 8.) A Scout who is just starting organizing his Eagle project has gotten unit approval (his Scoutmaster and Troop commitee both approved his project.) He now need his Council/District approval. Who initiates contact with the Council/ District advancement committee? a) Scoutmaster b) Troop Committee Chair c) Life Scout d) Troop Advancement Chair

I've been a Tiger Partner, Den Leader, Webelos Den Leader, Assistant Scoutmaster, Scoutmaster and a Unit Commissioner. My take - the Webelos really don't have to learn any specific Scout skills before they cross over to Boy Scouts (that is why there is no requirement that youth needed to be Cub Scouts to be a Boy Scout). Things Scoutmasters like to see in new Scouts joining their troop (the troop to which they belong!) is maturity, self-control, respect for others, leadership, etc. These are life skills that the boys will develop on their own time with an assist from the BSA programs. The boys are not the biggest stumbling block when transitioning from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts. The parents are the ones that need to be sent to 'reeducation camps." Boy Scouts is not Webelos III. Our goal as Scoutmasters is to partake in leadership training and character development. Compass skills, how to pitch a tent, cook a meal, cold weather camping, knot tieing, first aid skills, etc. are just a ruse to keep the boys interested while we try to do our main job. I know most don't see the Scouting program in that light but really, that is what it is all about.

Troopdad, again, the statement "Per G2SS, married couples can share a tent." is not 100% complete. Only married adults, and in the eyes of the BSA one is an adult over the age of 18 for the Boy Scouts and over the age of 21 for Venture and OA. So could a husband of 23 share a tent with his 20 year old wife and fellow crew member? No - she is considered a youth.

We do what MikeF and EagleinKY do - eat as an adult patrol with the SPL and ASPL eating with the adults. Formally, the SPL and ASPL are not members of a patrol (there is really no such thing as a "senior patrol"). Again, this gives me, the SM, a time to interface with the youth leaders. Also, let's say you are the Patrol Leader of the Scorpions and the current SPL came out of your patrol. If the SPL came to eat/cook/clean-up with your patrol, who do you think the boys would look to as their leader, the SPL or PL? Keeping the SPL (and ASPL) eating with the adults helps the PLs. Having an adult patrol eat together (and having a SA who really does a bang up job as grubmaster and master chef!) lets boys see how their patrols could operate if they had full cooperation, creativity, etc. It has worked well for us.

Benito Mussolini was a well respected figure in the United States before the war and before he became "dictatorial." Early on, he helped put public companies into private hands, preached pacifism, anti-imperialism and had an adversarial relationship with socialists. Only later on did he consolidate power in his hands only, move back to the opposite extreme of rigid governmental control of industry, align himself with Hitler's Nazi/Fascists and gravitate to an extreme form of aggressive nationalism. That is the Mussolini that most remember/despise. In the USA (and I assume Britain), the Scouting movement "worships" the ideals, as represented by the oath and law and unlike Christianity that worships Jesus, Scouts is not a Baden-Powell honorific society. Lots of "talk" about Baden-Powell's sexual orientation exist too, but all in all it is irrelevant to the BSA in this day and age.

Most OA lodges have great ceremony teams that perform at Cub Scout Blue and Gold Banquets, Eagle Courts of Honor, etc. I would refrain from using the term OA Eagle Court of Honor however. The event is an Eagle Court of Honor. The OA may or may not be involved in the ceremonies of that event. As a corollary, I've seen Congressmen give speeches of recognition at an Eagle COH but I would surely not call it a Congressional Eagle Court of Honor!

Trevorum, your statement, "According to the G2SS, and assuming appropriate quarters are available, newlywed 18 year olds could share a tent at a BSA camp while a mom and dad, who have been a couple for 15 years but have never felt the need to get married, could not." is partially correct. First, the 18 year old newlyweds would need to be married to each other and be of different sexes. Second, it could not be a Venture or OA function. The reason is that for those programs "adults" need to be 21, not 18 as in the Boy Scouts. So, a 20 year old married couple may NOT share a tent on a Venture outing.

One great resource that I have found is TroopMaster. Not just because it keeps good records but if one looks at how requirements are "met" with the S/W one can see how the BSA operates. For example, under activities one of the selections is "camping" (others are troop meeting, service, backpacking, etc.). If the unit leader (Scoutmaster for a troop or his/her designee like the advancement chair) picks camping they also have the option of including "cabin camping." There is also a check box for "OA eligible" (or something like that). If checked, the camping counts wrt the OA. In our troop, the previous SM only counted tent camping. Now, as SM, sometimes consider cabin camping on a case by case basis. I usually do not consider the Quality Inn (we "camped" their once on a trip to Chicago) or other "lavish" spots.

What is my (oops, the council to which I belong - inside joke for those who have not been members for a few years) council doing? Raising fees for Council owned properties, adding a fuel surcharge (after sites were booked in advance), and adding an "internet charge" for allowing, no make that making us, register for events on-line. Can you keep a secret? It isn't doing much to alleviate declining membership.