acco40

Yeah, the nerve of that old Scoutmaster and his troop. I decided to leave my wife and kids and form my own new family. I asked my wife for the house & the contents, the cars, etc. because it was I who raised all the money. She said no. Can you believe it?

The only BOR that a Scoutmaster may attend (for Scouts in his unit) is an Eagle BOR. He may attend with the understanding that the Scoutmaster is there to answer questions, when asked, and not to evaluate the Eagle Scout candidate (he already did that with the SM Conference).

A Scoutmaster has the "power" to send a Scout home from an activity if his actions are detrimental to the unit. However, this is different that revoke his membership. I'm in the camp that believes it is best for the committee to handle such matters but if committee members do not routinely go on the outings they should heavily weigh the SMs advice about problem behavior during outings.

Kudu - I'm confused. Overall, Woodbadge is a leadership course, not a New Leader Essentials type course. Some of your statements really confound me. I did not come away with the impression that the "troop method" was pushed at Woodbadge. Heck, look at the critters - patrol spirit was emphasized, not the fact that we were a part of Troop 1. From what I remember (and I admit, I may be fuzzy on what I "learned" from Woodbadge vs. Leader Specific vs. Essentials vs. just reading the Scoutmasters Handbook) but 1) Troop Elections should be held in multiples of six months to correspond with six month "POR" advancement requirements. I believe they "may" be held in six month increments (that is what our troop does) but not because of the POR requirement (after all, Star is four months) but because of school athletic "seasons", school band, and it gives a chance for the boys to remove an ineffective leader. 2) The purpose of a Patrol is to teach "Leadership Development". The methods (all of them) help us to reach the aims (all of them). Experience shows that a ratio of approx. 8:1 is ideal for leadership. That goes for the work place, Scouts and anywhere else. I would not say that main purpose of a patrol is to teach leadership but the experience of being a patrol leader can assist a Scout in gaining leadership capability. 3) My employer will be impressed to find out that I have participated in a corporate leadership course on my own time. Please, my employer seems to be clueless on most everything. When I took Woodbadge, I didn't inform my employer. 4) The SPL, not the Patrol Leader, is the true leader in Scouting. True, the SPL is the youth leader of the troop. However, I've always felt that the Patrol Leader is the most important position in Scouting. 5) The teacher of Scoutcraft skills is the Troop Guide, not the Patrol Leader. The "teacher" in many cases is an Instructor. The Patrol Leader has the leadership skills but any youth may have a specialty skill. I use the Troop Guide as a mentoring position for leadership not as a scout skills teacher. 6) The "chain of command" is SM -> SPL -> ASPL -> PL. I agree but more so as the communication path except the ASPL should be "removed" from this path. 7) New ideas are "modern" and therefore better than "old-fashioned" traditional ideas. I have no idea where this came from. Since the buzz word for the BSA (which I can't stand) is traditional values, I have no idea where you came up with this. 8) I get a lump in my throat and my eyes get all weepy at the following statement: "If the most talented Patrol Leader in the entire world were a member of the Troop that I serve, my duty would be to ask him to step aside to give someone else a turn because my job is to teach leadership." I would not ask him to step aside but I also would not want him to be patrol leader for eternity either. If you agree with the above eight statements, then you already approach Scouting with Wood Badge Logic. Wood Badge is just perfect for you, and it will be a valuable resource in subordinating the Patrol Method to whatever trendy Troop Method leadership theory is popular these days. On the other hand if you disagree with the above statements and if you define "Troop" as a meeting of Scout Patrols then you are probably a strong supporter of the Patrol Method. The BSA does teach that the troop is a coming together of patrols. It does teach that the patrol is the basic unit of the Boy Scouts. Now, I agree that many Scout leaders don't follow that but I don't think Woodbadge teaches the "troop method" in any way.

Merlyn & Ed - take it outside. Please don't highjack the thread. I once had a Scout come up to me and state that he really didn't believe in God. No, I don't have any specific tolerant insignia on my uniform. I asked him what he thought of the Scout Oath and Law. Well, he said he agreed with them (don't ask how or why, a teenager's mind is a complex thing). He was, in my view, an excellent Scout. He was a definite benefit to our troop. He was not that interested in rank advancement but was very bright and served well as an SPL. I had no intentions of questioning his Scout spirit although I know some felt I should have. I didn't share his revalation with others. I would hope that as a Scoutmaster, Scouts would feel free to talk to me about anything without fear of repercussions. Granted, none have confessed to me about an axe murder but neither have they brought up their sexuality to date (good!). And to think that after all these years I thought we had a few Hawaii athletic fans in Scouting.

I have my Panamanian General shirt - 100% cotton, Jambo CSP, OA flap, service starts, District Award of Merit, Webelos Den Leader, Den Leader, Tiger Den Leader, Scoutmaster Award of Merit, Scouter's Key and Scouter's Training. I also wear my medals, Woodbadge beads, etc. I wear this on rare occasions and never a medal that is represented by a knot. I want to wear my Eagle dad and Eagle mentor pins too but have refrained. :-( When serving as a Unit Commissioner, I wear all of my "knots" but no other "awards." Same goes when serving as a Scoutmaster and interfacing with Cubs (Blue & Golds, cross-overs, outings, etc.). The Cubs sometimes ask what they are for and I enjoy telling them I used to be a den leader. I also have my "plain" shirt for most occasions. Just like the services, there are times to wear our dress uniform and other times just our BDUs. I get a kick of the boys who recently received the Gettysburg Historic Trails Medal after our trip there this fall. They are so proud of it and wear it to campouts! I think that it is great but just be careful not to lose it! I think it shows the boys something when we show that we are proud to wear our uniform no matter how plain or gaudy. I don't have a problem with those who wear rows and rows of knots as long as they wear the uniform correctly.

What are your (as SM) and your troop's (bylaws, JLT expectations, etc.) requirements or expectations for the SPL. For example, I have the following: QUALIFICATIONS Age: none Rank: 1st Class or higher (highly recommended) Experience: Previous service as SPL, ASPL, PL, or APL Attendance: 75% over previous 6 months (recommended) PERFORMANCE REQUIREMENTS Training: You must attend the troop Junior Leader Training even if you have attended in the past. Attendance: You are expected to attend, as a minimum 85% of all troop meetings, Patrol Leaders' Council meetings, outings, and service projects. If your attendance is low, or if you have three (3) unexcused absences in a row, you can be removed from office. Effort: You are expected to given this position your best effort. GENERAL LEADERSHIP RESPONSIBILITIES Uniform: Set the example by wearing your uniform correctly. This means that you will wear all of the parts of the troop uniform, shirttail tucked in, with all required badges in their correct locations. Behavior: Set the example by living the Scout Oath and Law in your everyday life. Show Scout Spirit in everything you say and do. Attendance: Set the example by being an active Scout. Be on time for meetings and activities. You must call the Scoutmaster if you are not going to be at a meeting or if you suddenly have to miss an outing. You also need to make sure that the Assistant Senior Patrol Leader is ready to assume your responsibilities. It is your responsibility to make sure the ASPL is prepared. Now, in my situation, I would say the Scout was not giving his best effort, did not set a good example, etc. So, either shape up or ship out! You have to make it concrete. I agree with Beavah, it would be ludicrous to remove the Scout from SPL and give him another POR. Another option is to have him remain in office and if he requests a SM conference for Eagle in the near term, you would be within your bounds to deny Scout Spirit and not recommend him for Eagle.

Yes! One can definitely change simply by being in Boy Scouts. For proof, I've gained approximately 30 pounds! :-)

Halloween is an antireligious holiday. Catholics used to celebrate All Saints Day with more fervor. They would dress up in the costume of their favorite saints. To mock them, some would dress up in hideous costumes on all hallows eve. This morphed into dressing up in scaring costumes. In the USA, the present tradition of "trick or treating" came about with the migration to suburbia in the 1950s. Before WWII, Halloween was not celebrated by so many and the ones that did were usually mischief makers (or worse) that vandalized and pulled other pranks/tricks unless they were bought off (treats). Thus, the "trick or treat" phrase. Now, the baby boom generation has co-opted the holiday as the third leading party day for adults (after the Super Bowl and New Year's Eve.)

Every boy should have a position of some sort. Not all positions come with a "badge of office." Those that do include: SPL, ASPL, PL, APL, QM, Scribe, Chaplain's Aide, Bugler, Librarian, Historian, OA Rep, Den Chief, Instructor, Jr. SA and Troop Guide. Patrol positions such as Patrol QM, Patrol Scribe, Patrol Cheermaster, Patrol Grubmaster, etc. are positions of responsibility but unless it is a position okayed by the SM, they do not fill the POR requirement for Star, Life and Eagle. With that out of the way, I would not suggest the boys wear a position badge if they did not hold that office and the QM badge, for example, is for the Troop QM. Not a big deal but just my thoughts.

No good deed goes unpunished.

Great job. For any professionals out there, I would be willing to pay good money to be able to access BSA literature electronically, via an FTP site, web site, or whatever.

Our district held a "Meet the troops Night" first at roundtable and then many years later at a centralized meeting place. The idea was for adults leaders to meet adult leaders (not for Webelos Scouts to meet Boy Scouts). Attendance steadily dropped. This year, we held our third Webelos Transition Day on a Saturday morning (approx. 8:30 AM - 1:00 PM). A few volunteer troops teach a few skills (Totin'' Chip, Firem''n Chit, fire lays, etc.) and lunch is served. Parents, Webelos Scouts, Boy Scouts, WDL, SMs, etc. all get to meet. There is even a charge to attend ($10 per Webelos) but that actually helps increase attendance (I paid for it, I may as well attend). Many forget, to the boys in a troop, having Webelos join is not usually a big priority. In fact, we''ve grown the past few years, sporadically, and when we get more than a full patrol of Webelos Scouts crossing over their is some resentment from some of the boys. This goes away soon after the boys get to know one another. Unfortunately, I think Scouting in general is diminishing primarily because the adults don''t spend enough time delivering a quality program - both at the Cub and Boy Scout levels. The "I''m busy" excuse is used way to often. We are all busy. We just need to prioritize what we want to spend our time doing. For many, Scouts is way down on the list.

Worming her way into your heart? They have medication for that now.

Facts: The Scoutmaster is in charge of the advancement program in the troop. The Scoutmaster determines what is "active." The National Council prohibits setting up attendance requirements to determine who is "active." The POR requirements all state that the Scout serve actively. Now I''ll steal from previous posts. This question seems to come up on this forum and other forums time and time again. Instead of quoting BSA policy let''s look at it from the Scouts point of view. The participation requirement is explained in The Boy Scout Handbook by TO GAIN FULL ADVANTAGE of all Scouting has to offer, you need to be present when things are happening. Take part in meetings, in planning activities, and in the fun of adventures. If youre there, you can do your part to make your patrol and troop a success. During a SM conference, ask the Scout if he feels he has met this requirement. As for myself, the Scoutmaster runs the advancement program and they determine if a Scout is active. It is also understood, with a history of appeals from the national council, that set percentages may not be used to determine active. That said, I take attendance and have at my fingertips during a SM conference the boys attendance records at troop meetings, service projects, camping trips, fundraisers, etc. I use 50% or above as a rule of thumb but not a hard definition of active. From The Patrol Leader''s Handbook, right at the very start of the book: (thanks to Beavah) What is Expected of Me? While you are a patrol leader, your troop and patrol are going to count on you to live up to some clear expectations. They will look to you to: * Represent the patrol at all patrol leaders'' council meetings and the annual program planning conference. (emphasis mine) * Keep patrol members informed of decisions made by the patrol leaders'' council. * Play a key role in planning, leading, and evaluating patrol meetings and activities. * Help the patrol prepare to participate in all troop activities. ... * Set a good example by having a positive attitude... and expecting the best from yourself and others. * Devote the time necessary to be an effective leader. ...

I dont like parents who bad mouth a Cubmaster or Scoutmaster but yet dont step up to the plate by becoming a registered leader. Im amazed at some of the comments Ive been reading on this post. Who do you think trains the volunteers? More volunteers! I just got done serving as staff on the Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills. Were all of the trainers top notch? Well, all were adequate, most were good and some were excellent. How many of you had training and did not or were not given a chance to fill out an evaluation form? If you dont like the training staff, by all means replace those volunteers with yourself! Who do you think is on the Commissioner staff? Again volunteers. What is the job of a Unit Commissioner? To serve the unit. Someone who states that a UC should have mandatory training but not unit serving leaders doesnt understand these roles. Now, think about the task that the BSA has. It has adults who sign up to be registered leaders who dont have high school diplomas, some with doctorate degrees and everything in between. It is very difficult to create a training class to fit this wide variation of "students." Has all the training that Ive taken been top notch? No, but I can accurately state that all of the training classes that Ive taken had at least some partial benefit. Think of the Scout that attends a Troop meeting that covers first aid requirements for ranks up to 1st Class. That Scout may be a Life Scout and complain about how boring the meeting will be or that he already knows the stuff and doesnt need to attend. Oh, and by the way he doesnt want to teach or instruct at the meeting either. Well, some adults have that same bad attitude. Personally, Im somewhat ambivalent about mandatory training. Some really dont need it. Our committee chair understands the program, is quite professional, knows the literature/publications, is an Eagle Scout, etc. and is not "trained" for his position. No big deal - he "gets it." Others in the troop are trained for their position but do not "get it." Training is not a cure all but I highly recommend it, especially for SMs & SAs more than any other position in Scouting. As role models for our youth, how could I stand before our boys mandating that they take JLT, NYLT, Chaplains Aid training, Den Chief training and a host of other training and then not get trained myself?(This message has been edited by acco40)

One custom that I loathe, but is practiced by many den leaders, is the desire to present awards, especially rank, to all of the boys at once. So, if Johnny earned his Bear rank in February but Billy was not quite finished we would need to wait until Billy was done so as not to upset him. What hogwash! Also according the Cub Leader Handbook, "The badge should be ceremoniously presented as soon as possible at an upcoming Pack meeting." The above is correct. As for troops, rank recognition should happen a minimum of three times: 1) a public announcement immediately after a successful board of review, 2) a rank patch awarded at the next troop meeting (patches are restricted items and should not be bought in advance) 3) formally at the next troop COH. Many troops do not give out the rank badge until the next quarterly COH. This goes against what is described in Advancement Guide. So, the question of when does not have a singular answer.

Um, folks, one of the requirements for an Eagle Scout leadership service project is Scoutmaster approval so when the Scoutmaster says "no" then the requirement is not met. The district and/or council and troop committee also need to approve but leave one of those entities out and presto - not an approved project. FYI, if I had two boys submit plans for painting fire hydrants I would approve it. If I had two boys submit plans for painting fire hydrants on the same day, I would not. You figure that one out!

First of all, the Scoutmaster is in charge of the advancement program for the troop and I would do everything in my power to support him/her and not be combative. Second - The requirement says "serve actively for a period of 6 months in one or more" of the listed PORs. If you had to serve for six months in one position, the "or more" would be pointless verbiage. - Hunt No, not necessarily. If taken literally, if the requirement said "serve actively for a period of 6 months in one" then my son may not have earned Eagle because while SPL for over a year he was also the OA representative so he did not serve in one position of responsibility. I'm not trying to be argumentative. If I had a Scout serve as patrol leader for 3 months while a Life Scout and then three or more months as ASPL for example I would say that that position of responsibility requirement has been met. But, if your Scoutmaster has not made the same determination I'd try to work with him/her, not try and end around.(This message has been edited by acco40)

from scoutmaster.org (and fwiw, I agree) UNIFORMING IN BOY SCOUT TROOPS The Scouting program in the Boy Scouts of America has three specific objectives, commonly referred to as the "Aims of Scouting." They are character development, citizenship training, and personal fitness. To accomplish these aims, the BSA has designed eight methods in Boy Scouting. It is important that you know and use the methods of Boy Scouting. Other methods are good, but they may bring different results -- results possibly quite different than we are seeking. One of these methods is uniforming. Over the years, Scoutmasters have noticed that Scouts who truly try to live by the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives seem to be moved by the spirit to wear the Scout uniform (if they can afford it). Why? What is so magical about these pieces of cloth? Why would the BSA make wearing certain cloths part of the eight methods of Boy Scouting? I would like to take a few minutes to investigate this method to see what it brings to the table. The uniform supports the first Aim of Scouting, that of character development. The uniform is a symbol of the boy''s commitment to Scouting - his acceptance of the BSA''s ideals and willingness to live by them. The boy knows that when he is in that uniform he is expected to act in accordance to the values of the BSA and the values he has made an oath to live by. This purpose of uniforming is as much a part of the method as uniting him with his troop or patrol. Boy Scouting is an action program, and wearing the uniform is an action that shows each Scout''s commitment to the aims and purposes of Scouting. The Scouts identification grows even greater when it is realized that the uniform gives the Scout an identity in a world brotherhood of youth who believe in the same ideals. Scouts often do not have a complete understanding of Scouting or the commitment they have chosen to make. We need to communicate to them that that the uniform is a symbol of their commitment to Scouting, to the BSA, to their Council and to other Scouts and, not wearing the uniform is a sign to others that they may lack that commitment. The uniform also makes the Scout troop visible as a force for good and creates a positive youth image in the community. People who are not Scouts recognize the Boy Scout uniform. To the community the uniform represents a welcome image, a reminder that not all kids are bad, and not all gangs are violent. Uniforming also supports the second Aim of Scouting, that of citizenship training. In that it contributes to patrol and troop spirit. Boys who wear the uniform are put on a par with each other. Fancy clothes purchased by rich parents are gone as are clothes that bind the boy to other organizations and gangs. The uniform helps to build esprit de corps and gives the troop and patrol an identity with a program different from what the boy is exposed to outside of Scouting. However, that ''uniformed Scout'' represents more to himself, to his fellow Scouts and to the public as a whole, than simply belonging to his patrol or his troop. Used broadly, citizenship means the boy''s relationship to others. He comes to learn of his obligations to other people, to the society he lives in, to the government that presides over that society. The BSA uniform unites the boy with this larger goal by uniting him with the organization whose aim is that goal: the BSA. Uniforming also contributes to the third aim of personal and mental fitness. In Boy Scouting, the Scouts must satisfy certain requirements to achieve rank and responsibility within the program. These requirements often require the mastering of a physical or mental skill. When the requirements are satisfied an award or badge is earned. The uniform gives the Scout a reason to take pride in the way he looks, and in the badges and awards that testify to his achievements. As for adults wearing uniforms, all I can say is what Baden-Powell said: It is largely a matter of example. Show me a slackly-dressed Troop and I can "Sherlock" a slackly-dressed Scoutmaster. Think of it, when you are fitting on your uniform or putting that final saucy cock to your hat. You are the model to your boys and your smartness will reflect itself in them. Instead of using uniforming as a club that might prevent a boy from participating in Scouting, when you are with the Scouts, even for the simplest of things, put on your uniform. It raises the moral tone of the boys and it heightens their estimation of their uniform when they see it is not beneath a grown man to wear it. It also heightens their estimation of themselves when they find themselves taken seriously by men and women who also count it of importance to be in the same brotherhood with them. As Scouters we must constantly remind ourselves that it isnt so much what we say to the Scouts that they will emulate, but what we do. The Scouts are told by other leaders, by their handbooks and by each other to look to us as role models. And they will, they will do what do and wear what we wear. It is important that each of us fully understands the importance of each of the eight methods of Boy Scouting. I hope that after reading this discussion on how uniforming directly contributes to the three aims of Scouting that you have a better understanding of the often neglected and misunderstood method of uniforming. Yours in Scouting, Bill Nelson, Grand Canyon Council May 27, 2002

In the 60s and early 70s we had Den Mothers (no male den leaders), Cubmasters and Scoutmasters had to be male. I don't recall if females could become SAs. One of the methods of the Boys Scouts was Adult male association. Now, females may hold all of the leadership positions and the method was changed to Adult association. Was this for the better or because of a lack of male leaders? I'm not sure of the answer to that. I've known great female Scoutmasters and bad male Scoutmasters. However, all things being equal (and they never are), I think for most boys, having a male Scoutmaster is best. They are after all, role models for the boys and they indentify more with an adult male than an adult female. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Elections in March and September as new youth leader ''terms'' start April 1 and October 1. Reason: We use the NSP method (I should really call it the BSA method) and let them rotate a patrol leader every thirty days. Most Webelos Scouts have crossed over by the end of March and most have had a chance to serve as a patrol leader by the end of September. By October 1 the NSP label is removed and a ''permanent'' PL is elected. No rules against second or third terms but I usually talk to the Scout when a fourth term approaches. We use six months because many boys may be unavailable for a few months (marching band, football, wrestling, etc.). With six month terms, they can still hold the office during their ''off season.'' I really don't like having APLs or ASPL automatically moving up to assume the PL or SPL role. #1, the ASPL position should not be an elected position. Sort of like a VP, he should be chosen by the SPL not assigned to the SPL. Also, the ASPL is in charge of the the QM, Scribe, Librarian, Historian. Quite different duties. The SPL has to be confident that the ASPL has a great working relationship with him. Also, for large troops, many have multiple ASPLs. So who would take the SPL position if it was rolled over? A good friend of mine has a unique method. He has an indoor SPL and an outdoor SPL both serve for one year. The indoor SPL is in charge of meetings, COHs, etc. and the outdoor is in charge during the outings. He says it works great for him.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Female heads of state - Peron (Argentina), Finnbogadottir (Iceland), Prammer (Austria), Barbara (Malta), Aquino & Arroyo (Phillipines), Sukarnoputri (Indonesia), Burjanadze (Georgia), Pintasligo (Portugal), Micic (Serbia), Chamorro (Nicaraqua), Patil & Ghandhi (India), Itzik & Meir (Israel), Robinson & McAleese (Ireland), Bhutto (Pakistan), Jeria (Chile), Dreifuss (Switzerland), Vike-Freiberga (Latvia), Halonen (Finland), & San Marino has had multiple female heads of state. Granted, not all were elected but most were. The above list is not by any means exhaustive. Does Edith Wilson, "POTUS" in everything but name for 18 months count?(This message has been edited by acco40)

Take a hike of 20 continuous miles in one day following a hike plan you have prepared. "It really does depend upon the kid doing the hiking, but remember that they are carrying their own water and ten essentials which can get very heavy about mile 8." -Auquila Aquila - please let me know where you found the above requirement. In an earlier post I used the term "urban hike" - please don't translate this to walking on concrete or asphalt. We have many trails that meander through urban/surburban areas. So, you may be walking on a well established trail but not concrete. Some are converted railways and others more like a bike path of crushed pea gravel or just plain dirt. (This message has been edited by acco40)

First, physically, I think many of the boys can do a 20 mile hike. Mentally, many can''t. Let me explain. For the hiking merit badge, we had a recently crossed over Scout (hiked in August, crossed over in March) plan and finish a 20 mile hike. It was an "urban" trail which passes by restaurants. He carried water but had the opportunity to fill-up every few miles or so. He started at 8:00 AM and completed the hike around 5:30 PM (2.1 mph average). GernBlansten - 55 lb packback? You need some instruction on how to pack! No need to stick two dutch ovens in your pack. On our trek at Double H this summer we average around 40 lb / pack including food and the ridiculously heavy Philmont issued backpacking tents, flys, and cooking equipment. Don''t confuse hiking with backpacking. We backpacked 12 miles this Spring and it was a challenge. I can hike 15 miles with little effort. I take newly crossed over boys on a five mile hike in the Spring. Usually around the half-way point they get tired/bored. However, when they finish, after an hour of complaining, they are up for a game of football or other shenanigans. Pacing - something the boys don''t learn about at least until their mid-teens.