Eagle94-A1

It's also hell for those of use who are boots on the ground who have given years of our lives to the organization and have done our utmost to make it better.

At least with parents I have been encountering of late, no it won't help. One of the adults interfering was "trained." He did the online SM Specific and ITOLS at summer camp. Still let his child shirk his duties, still jumped in and taught classes and/or do stuff for his child, still allowed his child to leave his buddy and sneak into his tent. And the person telling me the 411 Committee member was not only trained, but a 3 beader to boot. Edited: I really dislike online learning because it does not allow for questions and answers, not does it discussion.

"Family scouting" is NOT Scouting. I have experienced this scenario with a 'family friendly" troop. There will be parents who refuse to let their Scouts grow, they will interfere and they will ignore anyone inside, and especially outside, of the groups. This is a sore subject with me as 'family scouting" was affecting my two older sons and was ruining their experience, and almost destroyed the troop they left. And upon reflection I do not think the troop fully recovered. And what really saddens me is that for all the new folks joining BSA who have no idea what Scouting truly is, this "family scouting" theme is all they will have. And try having a conversation with these folks about how things are suppose to be done. You will be told you are wrong, you have no idea what you are talking about, and Scouting has to change with the times. My personal favorite is a someone telling me the CS information that SOMEONE ON THE 411 CUB SCOUT COMMITTEE (caps for emphasis) gave me was wrong and that they had no idea what they were talking about. (sarcasm on) REALLY?!?!?! A member of the committee that revamped the Cub Scout program doesn't know what he is talking about when it comes to the Cub Scout program? (sarcasm off)

Most of what I wanted say has been said. Instead of classroom stuff BSA needs more hand on OUTING. I think the powers that be have forgotten that. In fact I know they have. Instead of relying on volunteers in the field to make suggestions to improve the program, they ignore them EVEN WHEN THEY ASK FOR VOLUNTEER INPUT (emphasis), and instead rely on "experts" in academia who may know little to nothing about Scouting. I harp on the 94% who were against ( 18%) or strongly against (76%) Instapalms, but that is the best example. And don't forget the misquote in one edition of the handbook published in the past 7 years: Outing ia two-thirds of Scouting. 1) the actual quote is " OUTING is three-fourths of ScOUTING," and 2) do the math: 6/8 simplified is 3/4. Anecdotal about kids wanting the outdoors. My troop is small with no feeder pack. Right now we have 13 Scouts, and one 18 year old ASM about to graduate. But we are an active troop. As soon as we were able, we got back in the outdoors. Of the 14 folks above, 5 transferred from other troops. We were visited by 2 folks last week who are not happy with their current troop because they are not being active. They liked the fact that we have been meeting, we did our own summer camp, and have been doing day trips and campouts when we could. While meetings can be disorganized, they are Scout run, and that was another factor for them visiting.

Not only with folks focused on the Summit, but also if they keep hiring education experts instead of outdoor experts. Comparing training syllabi from a decade+ ago to today's online classes and today's ITOLS class, there is so much left out. Heck When I taught ITOLS in 2010, I had to use older BSA literature that Bill Hillcourt wrote to supplement the instruction. And that's another thing, having a live instructor versus an online session with no interatction. Turning summer camp into summer MB school has not helped. the constant pushing for Eagle has not helped. Coming up with the FIRST CLASS FIRST YEAR mantra has definitely not helped. MBUs have not helped. And not all the online ZOOM MB meetings where 100+ Scouts are in a "class" and "earnign the MB just for being there has definately not helped. What I find interesting in my neck of the woods is that those troops that do not focus on advancement, but instead on adventure, are growing. Those on advancements, not as much.

I am sorry about the situation you are in. Focus on you son, and remember the positive impact you made on him, his friends, and other youth.

@69RoadRunner and @Jameson76 Trust me, I understand the competition. But it was just like during the school year when football, baseball, basketball, band, cheerleading, JROTC, etc are going on. So it has never been a big deal. And this has been with troops as small as 11, and as large as 40.

At one time long ago, my district had a Scoutreach program with a Boys and Girls Club. My understanding was that it did not work well, and I was not to try and restart it.

I had never heard of troops taking the summer off until I moved to NC. That's when I encountered my first troop that took a summer break except for summer camp and high adventure. No meetings, activities, other camp outs occur during the summer. IT BLEW MY MIND! (emphasis) Troop I grew up in not only met year-round, but summer was when we were more active because we didn't have to deal with school. As for being inactive for 3 months and it counts, I do not like it one bit.

Maybe not here, but on Facebook the "Scouting is a bargain compared to..." is heard all the time. And folks do not realize as much as a "bargain" Scouting is, it is still expensive for some families. I lucked out last year, summer camp was cancelled, and the fees refunded helped me with recharter and an Eagle Court of Honor. This year, Oldest ages out, so that is one less registration fee I have to pay. But I know folks who are on "scholarships" to help them remain in Scouting. Fundraising helps, but with COVID putting a nix on it for the time being, it is a challenge.

OK I am going to venture into the Sea Scouting/Venturing mess. 1. Sea Scouting is the second oldest program in the BSA, being founded in 1912, because it is the second oldest Scouting program worldwide, officially being created in 1910 but BP mentions going on sailing expeditions with his brothers as a youth. As @mashmasterhas stated, Sea Scouting folks have been talking care of themselves for an extremely long time as they have been the red-headed stepchildren of the BSA since before I was a Sea Explorer in the 1990s. Volunteers have really picked up the slack that BSA dropped. No way they should be dropped. In fact they saved themselves, or IMNSHO got a reprieve, from the Churchill Plan. And I am willing to bet they saved Venturing because folks at National lump the two programs together. In all honesty Sea Scouting Volunteers may be the example we need to follow post bankruptcy. They have kept the program alive when national did squat to support them. Heck many folks, including professionals, do not know Sea Scouting exists. I wore a Sea Scout uniform to a council level meeting, and the SE had no idea what I was wearing or that Sea Scouts existed. 2. Venturing is tougher for me. Because we have no crews in the district, and I do not believe any in the council except the summer camp crew, I have not kept up with them. I remember one of the big draws for Venturing was females because they could not be Scouts. Well that has changed. Plus with the ways the 18-20 years olds are now treated in Scouting, I can see a lot of folks not being interested. I could be wrong.

The council I was a DE in had 10 districts/Exploring Division, 2 Field Directors (FD), a Finance Director (FiD), Director of Field Service, and SE. In the 19-20 months I was a DE, 1. We never had 10 DEs at one time 2. One FD and the FiD left 3. 9 DEs, including myself, left. One was a Senior DE with 3 years in one council and about 1.5 years in mine, and had the longest career. Shortest tenure in my council was less than 3 weeks. Guy had a medical emergency requiring his neighboring to take them to the emergency room and be admitted. When the neighbor called to tell the DFS what was going on, DFS said he needed to be at the office for a meeting or consider himself fired. Guy quit over the phone. 4. What is Work/Home Balance? Seriously, my wife, who dated me while I was a DE, gave me an ultimatum within 1.5 months of marriage: her or the job. Glad I left, and many of my coworkers either were going through divorce or were divorced. 5. 60 hours/week seems light. I cannot remember the exact number of hours averaged, not the exact hourly rate, but a friend calculated DEs in my council were paid under $3/hour. Minimum wage was $5.15 at the time. Regarding finding out info before the professionals give it to us, sometimes it is because we find out before they do. The membership survey that results have never been released got me in some hot water because some one posted the video online and I shared it before the SE even got the info apparently. There have been several things I have found out before the professionals between her and Facebook. And let's not forget the Churchill Plan that got out.

As someone who had to report a longtime volunteer, I can tell you it is not easy. You will be in shock and disbelief. You will feel betrayed. You will not want to report. You will have doubts the situation happened. You will have others doubting it actually happened. BUT YOU NEED TO REPORT IT FOR THE SCOUTS' SAKE! You may even need to force the DE and SE to take action. BUT YOU NEED TO REPORT IT FOR THE SCOUTS' SAKE! Sadly you will also need to be prepared for the consequences. You will be viewed with suspicion by others. You may not be trusted by some. You may be asked to leave PORs. Some folks will be angry at you for reporting. BUT YOU NEED TO REPORT IT FOR THE SCOUTS' SAKE! I was fortunate in that I was moving shortly after the incident. So I didn't have to suffer some of the above for too long. But my friend the SM, DID face the consequences above. BUT YOU NEED TO REPORT IT FOR THE SCOUTS' SAKE!

With the first one I do not know much except the CC was also the COR, and he was an active parishioner. I would like to say there was proper oversight, but I do not know. Second CO, we had one of the leading parishioners as COR (he also was duel enrolled as an MC which is allowed) and with the first IH we had a great relationship. IH even attended COHs and visited when camping locally so he could get back in time for Sunday services. We also had about 35-40% of the Scouts as parishioners and/or attending the school. So there was oversite by the COR as well as limited oversite by the IH. His replacement came in with a strong anti Scouting bias, and within about 2-3 months of arriving stated they wanted us gone. Going from memory here, so bear with me, but I think they wanted to start some church specific clubs at the school and/or church. Starting a Catholic Youth Organization (CYO) keeps popping in my head. The Scouts didn't know anything about the stuff behind the scenes. We were told we were moving to a new church because they had an established pack, and invited us to move so that their Cubs had a place to move to. I only found out about the drama after I became an ASM, and it was in passing. The brother of the Eagle Scout whose court of honor we were "trespassing" at earned Eagle, and his dad, who was the COR/MC at the second CO, made a joke about trespassing at the brother's ECOH. That's when I found out who called the police on us. Upon reflection I do not know if the 3rd CO was actually the church or the Knights of Columbus Council. I know several knights were involved with troop and later venturing crew. I believe the pack also had knights involved. Pastor had a Scouting background, and attended COHs when he could. COR went to parish committee meetings. So the oversite was there.

I got mixed emotions on this. I agree with @David CO that BSA has not encouraged COs, and in particular CORs, from doing their jobs, especially on the district and council level committees they are de facto members of. Heck I was told NOT to visit IHs to talk to them about their units per the agreement letter in the recharter packet. I got a lot of heat for those visits because I was told I needed to spend the time on starting new units and to stop focusing on existing units. While I did notify folks about district meetings, which no COR ever attended, they were never notified about council meetings. Heck I could not even tell them because i was not informed about them. And I do agree that CO shopping just because is wrong. It does weaken the programs. I have been fortunate lately because the units i have been involved in have had strong relationships with the CO. Kinda helps if the IH is an Eagle and has a son in the troop. But the relationship between the CO and the units needs to go both ways Yes, the CO helps the units, but the units also need to give back. It could be doing yard maintenance, collecting palms for Palm Sunday services, setting up for outdoor services, anything to support the CO. EDITED: The longer units are with a CO, the stronger the relationship should be, the better the units program will be and better the service a CO receives. But sometimes I do think their is a need to switch COs. The troop I grew up in had 3 COs while I was there, We were at the first CO for 20 years and initially had a very good relationship with the CO. But over time the CO's congregation changed demographics, and fewer members of the church were joining. The CO no longer viewed us as part of the church, and we were treated as such: last minute moves to smaller meeting spaces or even canceling meetings, destruction and theft troop gear, etc. And yes we did try to support the CO, but they did not want us. After discussions with the IH, it was decided that the troop would be better served by another church that did want a Scout troop, and eventually we did move The second church was great under the initial IH. But after 2 years, a new IH appeared that had a very strong anti Scouting bias. They made it known that they wanted us gone, They even called the police on us for trespassing when we were late leaving an Eagle Court of Honor. Here we are, taking the garbage to the dumpster and getting ready to leave, when a cop shows up asking if we saw any kids running around and causing problems as they got a phone call saying there was a bunch of kids trespassing at the church. We later discovered that 1 minute after the scheduled end time of the ECOH, the IH called the cops on us for trespassing. Within 6 months of being told they wanted us gone, we found another church that had a pack, but no troop, and we went there. In both cases above, the CO's we left signed off on allowing us to continue using the unit number, gear, and keeping our history. That history means a lot to both the youth and adults. BSA does have a process for transferring numbers, but the CO must agree to it if an active charter is in place. Once a charter expires, their is a 5 year hold, at least when I was a DE in my council, on that number for the CO in case they ever restart a unit. And at least in my council, the "reserved" number is held for any new units in the district IF they want the number. When I started a CS Pack at one church, their original number form 30+ years ago was "reserved" and they could get it back. Policy is continuous charter, does not matter how many COs you have. My troop above is one example of a troop with multiple COs. Current CO started the troop I am in 99 years ago. but there were two periods of time when the troop folded. We have only been around for 40+ years according to the charter. although we have memorabilia in the Scout room going back to before the council was even formed.

BSA has updated YP policies as recently as 2018/2019.

Outside, child education experts with no experience with the BSA's programs were also hired to develop the various training courses we have today. With the exception of Youth Protection, look where current training is at compared to 15+ years ago.

I believe the UMC Church encouraged their congregations to get involved in the lawsuit for this very reason. I hope other COs did the same, including the COs I have been involved with. I know my current CO has worked through the overall denomination. No idea what my church has done, but I did email about this situation.

For those who may know him, Marty Tschetter passed away yesterday. He was one of the three that created OA Trail Crew at Pholmont. A bio is linked below. https://oa-bsa.org/article/profile-unselfish-service-marty-tschetter

Growing up, the city my troop met in, and one in Canada became "twin cities," and we had groups coming and going for a few years. When I did my 64 mile canoes trip in Canada, it was partnered with 2 troops there that acted as guides. When I was in the UK, folks would connect with troops they would be visiting, and use them as guides.

Apparently the person IDing the location is a Scouter.

The bankruptcy discussion is depressing me. So I have need to focus of good news, like last night. While I have been involved in Scouting as a Scouter for almost 30 years now, and have worked with I don't know how many Scouts over the years, last night was special. I sat on an EBOR for a Scout who was in my first Tiger Cub den back in the day. He is the second one in my den to make Eagle (the first being my oldest), and having watched him grow up I am really proud of him. Especially with the challenges at home he faced. This is a young man who will go far in life.

Which is what Kosnoff wants.

I am not a lawyer, so this is a honest question. If LCs and COs did NOT file claims against the BSA prior to the November 2020 deadline, then the LCs and COs are completely on their own and cannot sue BSA for breach of contract, or whatever legal term it would be, for not honoring the agreements in the charter agreements from all these years? My understanding is part of the charter fees everyone paid was to protect the CO and LC from lawsuits just like this.