skeptic

Is the chosen battle really worth the discourse and dischord?

How about is it simply "human predator based". That is really what it is. I has little to do with the Church/CO or BSA directly, as the people doingit are NOT representative of the CO's or BSA. They are part of the fringe, but sadly fairly common negative elements of humanity. Just an observation that seems obvious to me. But, I guess some will disagree, as is their right.

Hearsay to roil the waters is not a good idea. Unless there is supporting evidence to such comments, it is not anything for this forum, or so it seems to me.

I just hope that those that would put someone to the grinding wheel due to their interpretation of something in the GTA or even what something means, would chill a bit. Also hope that most rational Scouters will have the sense, maturity, and integrity to not embasrass a scout over something like this and instead, if that important to them seek out and discuss with the unit leader(s). Even an aside meant to simply make a youth think a bit can come off wrong and cause issues. I learned years ago to not chastize a youth for something that is not dangerous or likely to cause harm, especially uniform stuff. I jokingly asked a Star Scout at camp what lodge the "tote-n-chip" was since he had that patch where the OA flap is in theory supposed to be placed. He was upset, as I embarassed him, though I suspect he also knew what I meant. At chow that evening I was taken to the woodshed by a very annoyed leader from that unit. I did apologize to them as best I could, but it was really not worth the outcome. Since then, I only correct or annoy my own youth.

It is apparently not of high importance to most councils. Otherwise, every council would maintain at their office a used exchange department. Far too many uniforms go to some form of thrift, and most of those end up in the market with little control and often excessive expectations. IF each council were to keep such a resource, people could use it for exchanges as youth grow, and the supply issue might be partly mitigated. But, that would mean they would likely lose a good percentage of "new" purchases. The focus needs to not be on profit to sustain the council, but service to meet the "uniform" part of the program. JMHO of course.

Some of that is also due to the changes in the church memberships, especially with older units likeours. In the thirties through early sixties, we had huge youth involvement in the church, and the units reflected that too. As the population shifted away from our end of the city, the youth went with it, and now the largest units are on the opposite end of the town. And the income levels also shifted that way so that our draw slowly became from the lowest income areas and oldest housing. Now we struggle as was here noted, but we have managed barely to keep the pack. We had a very large feeder for years at a school, but they moved to a church, then folded not long afterwards. Getting the cubs to visit to transition is hard, especially with the numbers and struggle with progam due to barely enough leaders able to do outdoor even at the minimum. Out history is a plus, as we are the oldest unit in the council by far, but that only goes so far, especially with the odd historical disintruest it seems in society in general. Finally of course, the biggest problem now is the CYA fears in the larger Church with the CO attacks by the black feathered ones. JMHO of course. Just note that, depending on your spiritual beliefs, there has never been a perfect human, and since all groups are made of us, that is a challenge.

Off and on through the years I have tried to point out the inclusion of the name of Jesus Christ in their longer name, which I understood to be the official one. Am fairly certain the usage of Mormon comes from the Book of Mormon, and that book has seemed to me to be the reason so many "Christians" have refused to recognize them as "Christians". For me, it has always been what verifies to me that they are one of the many off shoots of the larger family of Christians. While the extra book has never been something I have found acceptible for my own Christian belief, it also does not remove the "fact" they also include the more accepted other two books of the Bible. It is in many ways similar to my views of Jehovah's Witnesses and to some extent Christian Scientists. And there are a few more that are pretty restrictive form my mind. Perhaps I am too simplistic in my personal definition of what a Christian is. As I see it; if someone believes in Christ, no matter what the variants attached, they still are part of the Christian family. Not a debate for me, so please refrain. Just as most of us have little knowledge or understanding of other world wide beliefs, or simply do not feel they are real, those that have them have that right. And, I also believe it will all get sorted out in some manner at a future time in our spiritual existences.

In the case of the Methodist Church, I suspect you will find any of the established units have a long history of a safe and free meeting space, and often much storage as well. We have been our church basement since the building was dedicated in the thirties. With the slow deteriorization of the congregation, we have been allowed more storage options as well. Most importantly, almost 100 percent of the actual church membership loves the Scouts and when we interact, they show it both in financial sharing and more importantly simple friendliness. Since it is top heavy with elderly, though slowly getting a bit younger, the kids often experience the "grandparent" experience. Good for everyone.

Today there is a fairly extensive piece on the LDS in Bisbee and so on. This is only conjecture or poking for clarity, but I find myself wondering if the BSA officials that appareently made the under the carpet choice ordeflected were mostly LDS, since at the time they were huge influences on the National Council? No accusation, only curiosity.

Why would we need a state law to mandate what is obviously needed? And that can apply to the distant past too. Why was the general public attitude so misdirected? Protection of the innocent should not need to be a point of legal law, only moral law. And, that too is part of the basic foundation of real Scouting, as well as most belief systems.

Other than the history of the LDS with BSA, this is mute. LDS completely dropped scouting as a church sponsored program and have gone out on their own. While it became mostly finalized prior to the bankruptcy, it was in the works for almost a decade prior. So, the conjectures about LDS somehow becoming a different CO type is mute.

Government recognized the benefits of the BSA in the first up until around the sixties when so much began to change. That may well have been connected to disallusionment brought on by JFK and Civil Rights. Certainly for me, that was a huge pivot point for me. And I now see my generation as mostly jaded or just tired and having abandoned all the positive energy of the Kennedy enthusiam. Interactions with BSA were shared and often cooperative endeavors to improve society, not only with the military interactions where we could camp on bases and work with them at times, but also shared resources, such as happened with A.P:. Hill's jambo use. That was a screaming point for some of the radicals against anything positive with BSA at the time. They did not care about the symbiotic benefits of the connection. The Army's AP Hill assistance allowed them to train with large groups for many possibilities with large group gatherings, and also practicing skills only really viable with large groups. Meanwhile the BSA paid considerable for much of the materials and so on, even though the nay sayers tried to suggest it was all given to them. Narrow mindedness and bias. Today, we no longer can interact well with military bases, and visits are so restrictive that they are like looking through a glass case. Our unit used to camp on base at Edwards next to the old rocket sled track, and we had tours, used the dining halls, the pool and so on. Air shows were special and huge. At Vandenburg, we saw dog traiining, looked into silos, and saw the then being constructed launch structures, as well as the site of the huge naval disaster along the coarst near there. While security is important, I cannot help but wonder how much is lost with this blindered approach to public interactions. Of course, many of us have heard the stories of veterans that note their Scouting training as helping them survive, even up to the modern day, but especially in WWII, Korea, and Nam. Joe Price told me that it was his assignment to find as many scout handbooks and manuals as possible for military training that got him into collecting. They used them for training of the troops, as they felt they were some of the best resources at the time. And, being a Skeptic, I find myself feeling that the idea that somehow the Government can be dragged into the lawsuit and bankruptcy, due to perceived deep pockets I fear, is just that; an effort to find more money at the expense of others, the tax payers. JMHO of course.

We need to face the larger elephant. BSA, and far too many other groups of similar nature are in constant fear of law suits over what fifty years or more ago would have been thrown out immediately. Same discussion that makes the lawsuit issues so difficult in the bankruptcy. Our legal system is really poorly designed today in that it will not simply ban foolishness that is obvious. JMHO of course.

Ever since the changes that pretty much make anyone that is First Class and has the other minimum requirements I have made it a point to talk to every likely candidate to determine IF he desired to even be in OA, and explain to him the expectation he needs to meet the intent of the honor. And, I have had a few scouts tell me that it really is not something they feel the need to do. Along with my own Spirit evaluation, tht has on occasion removed a few. Sadly, still too many still become "sash and dash". Part of that may be the lack of real intensity and meaning in the Ordeal ceremonies too much of the time. Too often it is obvious that little effort has been made to learn the ceremonial parts, and some candidates are really still too immature to fulfill the honor yet. It is sad that so much of the Order mystique is no longer in place. Still, it does serve a purpose, and at times they do a really fine job. It depends on theose in the leadership over time.

How Scout Like, at last.

A great opportunity perhaps to rekindle a small bit of the camp and perhaps the local lodge history.

Just noting this for those that continue to denigrate NESA. While it continues to need considerable reorganization and far better online options, it is still doing one of its primary options. https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2022/07/21/nesa-bestows-more-than-500k-in-scholarships-to-eagle-scouts/

While the service element is the main strength, the honor of selection is also a factor, though much less imporstant with thw watered down process where there is generally no limit on admittance if the basic requirements are met. I have held one or two back due to scout spirit issues; that is my job as the leader. But today there is basiclally no real limitation on elegibility in respect to the SM evaluation and rank and camping minimums. As I have noted in the past, in my view, we have taken the strength of becoming a member away by removing the element of intregue. And few lodges do real Native American cultural things like regalia and dancing, partly due to the issue under discussion. What does remain could be far better presented by teams that do not have to have a crib sheet or simply an actual page with the ceremony details to read. JMO of course.

That is where the counselor steps in and suggests they choose a tribe from where they are from in the U.S. They almost all have a familial connect to the States in some manner.

Not sure about National, though most seem already gone, but our local council has cut staff by about 70 percent.

Scouting has a long tradition of borrowing symbolic things from others, often indiginous groups. Not just here in the U.S., but elsewhere too. Woodbadge beads are connected to the Zulu tribe of Africa and Dinizulu. " Early in the history of the Scout Movement, the founder, Robert Baden-Powell, ran the first residential adult leader training course for Scouters. At the completion of the course, the participants asked him if he could give them some token to indicate that they had been trained. He had not given this any thought, but on receiving the request he improvised by taking two little beads from a string of such beads he had; he threaded them on a bootlace, and hung them around the neck of each Scouter. Ever since, each Scouter who has successfully completed the advanced training course receives two similar beads on a leather thong. Known as the Wood Badge beads, they are proudly worn by Scouters to indicate that they are continuing in a tradition handed down from Baden-Powell. " In June 1888 Dinuzulu lead an attack against the Mandlakazi, who in 1883 had burnt down his father’s kraal at Ulundi, and defeated them at Nongoma. The British sent a force to capture Dinuzula lead by Robert Baden Powell, who in later years was to found the Boy Scouts movement. Although Baden Powell was unable to catch up with Dinuzulu he did manage to acquire his ‘iziQu’ - his long necklace of wooden beads. Writing about the campaign Baden Powell said.. So, it goes to the founder in this respect. In our area the primary tribe is Chumash, and our local O.A. lodge workes with them to honor their traditions. At times an elder from the tribe has attended O.A. ceremonies and blessed the gathering with valid Chumash lore. From what I have read over time, this is more the norm than what the crazies that talk about cultural assimilation claim. And, I am sure with a bit of digging we can find examples where local BSA groups have stopped some type of ceremony when actually approached by local tribe leaders. If you have read the actual history of the Koshare Indians. You will discover that from almost day one, there was a cultural review by the local tribes of what the dancers did, and also the ceremonial items and backdrops. That is the normal approach from those units and OA lodges that choose to study the local tribes, or even those that are more broadly recoginzed from old movies and stories. In that regard, I would like to see the Indian Lore merit badge modified to require some type of local cultural interchange as a requirement so as to assure the youth learn about their local tribes.

The volunteer "as employee" is I think the result of the legal system skewing the actual status and having the courts agree. It is, as pointed out, not reality. Are the coaches of youth sports and their helpers employees of the leagues? Are the volunteers at the Y or BGC and so on employees if they do not get paid? Lots of room for some actual common judgment on these things, and too often we let the slick tongues lawyer corrupt the real meaning and picture.

The idea of making HA bases into NP orgs actually seems to me a viable thought. As long as the focus is, well, focussed. Opening them up to more non-scout groups could likely lower the costs to Scouting groups who would get priority. And that also might include working out opening them to other World groups.

That is your opinion, though it is wrong. Good luck with dealing with your personal issues.

Sorry, but I think you are asking a truly misquided question. I am simply pointing out that trauma, either physical or mental, especially if repressed for decades for some reason, causes problems that can torment, especially if something happens to trigger it again. You surely can understand that without implying what you seem to be implying. There are NO traumas that do not leave some type of hidden scars mentally. And often they are put into our emotionally padded rooms to stay unless triggered. Many are worse than others, but they are all real and leave their own scars. And none of them should be trivialized because ours is "worse"; they all require us to find a way to adjust and with luck keep them locked down.