skeptic

Again, the truth of Scouting over time. This is the real image of the program, and representative of I would suggest over 99% of those that experience it. When our unit was regularly pushing popcorn and I was one of the adults in support, I often had past unit members visit and reminisce, or simply former scouts. Many were proud of being Eagles, but just as many admitted that they just had it as a great youthful experience and learned many beneficial things. Sadly, in a few instances, someone attacked the program, and worse the youth that were there. Twice I was forced to step in and ask an adult to please refrain from the verbal harassment and not cause problems. But, overall, these were positive encounters and even once we ended up with a former member of the unit rejoining us for a while, just out of college and wanting to help. Similarly, a couple of the old timers visited our meeting and spoke of their time in the program. I might add that on one of my visits with the master historian and collector Joe Price, he told me how he came to collect while in the service in WWII. He said that he was asked to find as many Scout Handbooks and related materials, especially the they new Hillcourt Field Book, as they were used as part of the training for the men in uniform. That resulted in his fascination with collecting the material and learning about it. That was a few years back now, but I believe it was the jist of our discussion, though time can muddle things.

If we are to make a comment, can we use the right spelling please. Naught is another word for zero, pronounced not, or knot. Still, I suggest this is not a good reason to knot up our emotiona, as it really really a naught sum discussion. I suppose though we might at times be naughty and make waves. Perhaps we need to have our backsides smacked with a knotty pine paddle.

Actually the sad thing is that you are unable to find any peace or relief from your trauma. And no amount of money will ever cure that, nor accusing others of not caring or having any empathy. I pray that you may somehow find that relief and peace in the next journey.

The more legally informed might cast some light, but it surely does not appear so in this issue. If it did, we would not be watching the levels of skewing we are seeing. That would include NOT changing SOL's so that a lawyer can shop for the "right" court and state. Add consistency to my chant of "balance" and sensible and logical responses and not overly wrought emotion base on hyperbole and vague information.

I have no issue with legitimate suits, only frivolous or over the top ones that want more than is rational just because someone may feel sorry or it is the insurance company paying, or they see someone as having money. Suing for more than actual expenses, and somehow feeling you are owed an outlandish amount for "pain and suffering" or similar wording is simply dishonest from my view. IF the injury was truly due to someone being careless or ignoring common precautions, something might be rational. But the amounts are what the issue is, especially in cases where it is not clear that it was anything other than an accident. These types of law suits not only pay jackal lawyers, but they also run up the cost of valid insurance for us all.

And that is our problem in our particular litigious society and messed up legal system. Little logic in too many cases, only a view of dollar signs. Who cares if it is petty and selfish as long as someone can get money?

So, if I was skeptical about how unbalanced this entire issue has been in the media, I have to wonder why now? The lawyers are not getting enough money I suppose, and the concept that BSA errors and "cover ups" stand alone are not shown. Unless they modify this to be inclusive of "every" civic agency that chose to not follow up for whatever reason, and also on the fact that many families chose to NOT have it made public, and also list the actual redators they may then have a more comlete story. But then they would have to admit that the issue is not just a BSA problem, but societal and family based as well. The difference is that those entities either have legal protections as government entities, or they simply do not have the money to pursue. And just for info, I do not feel the BSA is blameless, only that the whole picture is radically skewed towards the "money belief" and that somehow they are the only perpetrators. We do get back to a percentage of abuse number based on long term membership over decades, one that has shown to be far lower than other comparative groups. Also, it has become obvious with this that many of the filed cases are thin at best, as the survivors only remember "something", but no specifics. I would have far less issue with this if it actually did make any real effort to go beyond the BSA and the sensationalism. JMO, so please do not start with the finger pointing that I am a black hearted hater of victims. If the lawyers, and now the media people were not making money hand over fist, it would be easier to deal with.

For all the nay sayers about NESA, just take a look at this and perhaps consider a few less decibles in your negative comments. https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2023/08/10/eagle-scouts-receive-more-than-500k-in-nesa-scholarships/

Part of the broader issue. While your comments are indicative of some very poor decision making, it is not the whole picture over the history of the program. For some reason, the FACT that the IV files were even created should be a positive piece of this, especially since there are instances where the intent of the files did what was needed. This was at a time when few, if any other groups were even trying to find a solution. Let us not minimize the larger society's poor response and even greater evidence of hiding issues, especially where money or political power was involved. BSA is not, nor ever was the focus of this problem, only another victim that was used by the actual abusers, just as they used other groups. Just as much, if not more, fault should be found by the legal profession, our corrupt leaders, predators in most larger institutions like schools, churches, other youth serving groups. and even many familial responses. And, it is obvious that it is still a major societal issue, and BSA has made huge efforts to deal with it, including taking a lead role in trying to find viable ways that might stop some of the darkness in the larger community from intruding. But, it will never fully succeed, as it is not the whole of society, and it cannot control everything in that larger society. Trying to blame BSA for all of the larger issue is simply unreasonable and foolish. JMHO of course.

Getting any real cooperative interplay here is diffficult at best, and often very unclear as to who may be the fo to person. The execs, other than the two top ones, are gone, as is half the support staff.

In theory we are, but the charter paperwork still lists the church. We have yet to get it clear. We have an open offer from the Masons which we may yet take, but we have not been able to verify the use document works for them too.

Just think; if they still allowed supervised adult, but TLC reviews, maybe there would be less issue. And, the youth might even learn something about life and how to make rational and fair judgments. In the years when that was still the method, I do not recall but one or two instances where the youth overstepped, and in one case, we determined after review that it really was not the case.

I accept that this particular issue is not huge, but again, in respect to the history of Scouting, proper name spelling "should" be important. But, I believe grammar and spelling, espeically names of important people should be of import. At the same time, if it does not concern you, that is your right and in my view, maybe your loss as well On this forum, those that mostly criticize me are the same, and I can almost predict that response. Look past me as someone you may not feel is worth noting, but do not look past the youth who needs to see that care in writing, or speeech is important to their character and success. JMHO of course. Carry on, and maybe work on pushing the mostly positive side of Scouting. Surely our sick society could use that.

While the levity is possibly warranted, it also reflects on a serious issue in our society, in my old guy view. Spelling and grammar are important things, whether in these forums or in life. In the case of Scouting history, it seems right that the name should be properly spelled, at least to me. It reminds me a bit of the teacher that asked me why I circled mispelled words on a student's paper, even if the word was not related to the subject directly. I told her that I felt education should extend beyond the lines and subject, and that spelling was an important skill in its own right, even if it had little or nothing to do with the subject. I was not marking the student down, just drawing their attention to the importance, as I saw it. Everybody has a viewpoint, and many obviously do not agree with me. Their right. Th anks for the couple chuckles too. Interesting, as an aside, Seton did not settle on his name in print until years later, when he generally usedl Ernest Thompson Seton, or E. T. Seton. Some of his early writing has Ernest Seto Thompson on it. but the Seton was still spelled that way.

Two things. Seton is how the name is spelled. Please, if you choose to discuss the man and his family, please spell it correctly. Second; yes Campfire was indirectly a sister to BSA through Dan Beard. A while back, maybe almost ten years now, I was responded to by a Granddauter of Beard, clairifying the connection. Tos some extent, people in that era intermingled with their attempts to create healthy and viable youth groups, even on occasion sharing camps and so on. I wonder, other than clearer historical notes, how important it is, and if those that seem to waant to cast vague inuendo at times really care that those people, mostly male at the time, truly care or just like to stir pots. Seton, not Seaton please.

While I am fairly sure that much was not shared with CO's , I also am aware that much of the confusion came from few taking note of the quiet insurance companies altering their fine print. At one time the coverage was there, but over time many insurance companies modified much of their coverages, adding fine print that made minor changes that were not obvious to many, especially if faith had been put in them from prior history. Carelessness in not paying attention still is not a good image, but I would suggest that was what it was. Now, when it was discovered, we still need to wonder why the insurance companies were allowed to continue this, and if they insisted, we did not find other protections. MOre than enough blame to go around, but my personal experience with the insurance industry is NOT postive in regard to their constantly finding ways to not pay, or to decrease the liability and then force someone to court, which many cannot afford> Again, Just my observations.

Go for it. There is much to be said for reviewing stuff from decades back for use today, keeping safety and YP issues in mind of course. But many of the activities are not unsafe if done with skill and care and of course real supervision. Much of the time the youth take to it with vigor. .

Blame it on the lawyers. CYA runs rampant nowadays, especially with BSA. But it really does intrude on us all far too often. Our HOA is suffering from the lack of personal responsibility being a consideration in law suits. A Child is injured playing on site and it is the fault of the HOA, even though a number of us saw her get knocked down on the grass by her large puppy. And falling off of something not men=ant to be a seat is simply the way things happen with kids playing. Similarly, elderly being a bit unstable with age and mobility is a common issue, but if a fall occurs it is the fault of the HOA, even if the person has shown a tendency toward balance issues. I have those issues, and I keep a hiking pole for balance should I need it, and I am cognicent that surfaces are not always perfect and that I need to pay attention to steps and such. What can we say. It is always the fault of something or someone other than ourselves.

Glad we got on the same page. Many feel that West made BSA work because he organized it and also was lawyer that worked to overcome early issues. Since he was an orphan and had had a really hard upbringing, he brought his perspecitves as a boy to the work as well, championing youth in the early days. He worked with Teddy Roosevelt to bring some protection to children in the workplace, among other things. But he also was a taskmaster, and he clashed with both Seton and Beard in the earlier developmental period, though they found a way to compromise much of the time. Oh that our clown Congress might do that. Sorry if I may have come across as grumpy; I can do that. And being old is not an excuse. After all, that would be non Scouting.

Yep, those dim ages. When I tell scouts I never did an Eagle project they look at me funny. At least they had changed Bird Study to Nature on the list. We had these small groups that we had to choose from, along with the actual required ones. I have to say, that group concept made you have a broader exposure to various subjects. Kind of like general education that was once required to graduate college. Not sure that is the case now, but that was what I mostly took my first two years of college. And it introduced me to a new face of music and art, which was good. Understanding classical concepts has made me truly apprciate music in general, as it is a base for everything really. And a broad knowledge is useful in life.

If he was able to complete the second class he likely just needs to practice and maybe learn side and breast strokes. Many youth tend to think that the crawl is the only stroke to use, but the test does not say to use the crawl, only to use a strong stroke for the seventy-five yards, and then a resting backstorke, which would normally be the elementary backstroke. Defining strong may be an issue, but it is easier to master a breast of side stroke for a strong forward movement than the crawl in regard to energy, as they both allow a glide, especially if done properly. As far as simply getting practice, I would encourage you to perhaps try to find a local place with a smaller pool, but one that would allow practice at shorter distances, such as smalle swim clubs or even a backyard pool. The location does not need to be a full sized pool; and also a properly vetted lake, river, or even the ocean can work, though ocean would need to be in a restricted area as is set up at some camps. As I got older, I found that the side and breast strokes were better for me as they did not require the energy, as I noted, just good stroke technique. Good luck, and remember he will not need to pass the Merit Badge. On the other hand, he might care to work on it and do the MB. I had a scout years ago that struggled with the swim requirements, finally learning the elementary back stroke well, and simply battling through the minimum First Class stuff when he was old enough to sturggle through it minimally. It was not pretty, but he did it. Funny thing about him was he actually did the mile swim, completely on his back with the elementary stroke. And he later became an Army Ranger. When I asked him how that hap;pened, he said it was brute strength, not stroke quality.

Of course I refer to the tenets of BSA; that is the whole point of the West quote. He was speaking of the society at the time of the quote, which as it see also was not as civil as most of us would feel is to be striven. The tenets are the Oath, The Law, The Motto, and the Slogan, as well as later, after the time of this article/quote, the Outdoor Code. These make up the foundation of Scouting, and are the major factors in judging Scout Spirit. I truly do not understand your confusion over West. He was the head of BSA for decades and is considered one of the primary men in the history of BSA. James E. West, Chief Scout Executive, lawyer that worked for the improvement of life for youth, including those outside of BSA. As far as the Klan is concerned, I only see it as a point of reference in the quote as to what is not in tune with civil society. Have you read any of the history of BSA? If not, it might help a bit to do so. This is the best I can do to clarify this for you. Society would work more smoothly with the concept embraced by Scout Spirit. West was speaking to that, and the Klan had nothing directly to do with it, but they were a major problem at the period from from which this is taken, and not just to do with conflict with some religious beliefs of the time. Hopefully it is now a little clearer than basic mud.

Okay. We might agree that the basic tenets are something current, and past society might find or have found helpful. KKK is not a group that should be lionized, for sure. And religion is personal and BSA suggests we accept that individuality. It is all ambiguous and likely should remain a family element, ?. No proof, obviously, but I suspect Mr. West would have been alarmed at some things that have transpired since his death. Just the same, if we can keep the focus, it is a worthwhile effort on our parts I believe. I am old and need a nap.

The reason I posted it had nothing to do with Catholocim or the KIan. It has all to do with the fact that even at the time West recogized that the larger society might benefit from the concept of aceptance of thers. My interpretation, and my current feeling that our society today would do well to adhere to the tenets of the Scouting program. Other than noting that there are Catholic Scouts and so on, I do not see what you speak of, and he does not only mention Catholics. ??? I have not been able to locate the larger article, but perhaps someone might, or I still may if my eyes will cooperate with small copies and such.

I fail to see anything in the quote regarding Mr. West and the Klan. He is simply suggesting that people might consider the last part of the explanation of the 12th point; Be tolerant of other beliefs. How do we get to something negative about BSA, West, and so on?