skeptic

You are right, and I have obviously made a poor comparison. WF withdrew support at the advent of Dale, not at the change in the BSA stance. So, it is not contradicory. I stand corrected and hope the moderators may simply delete this, or seal it. Thank you.

I could not help but be a bit sad this morning when Wells Fargo Bank posted a blurb on their FB page praising their current stance on LGBTQ support. When the first public attacks on BSA standces on Gays started in the nineties, when United Way cut most councils off, and so on, Wells Fargo came out against BSA for their stance on Gays at the time. Understand, WF Corporate was, and may still be, in the Bay Area. Similarly Levi Strauss did too, along with myriad other national corps, pulling their support donation and encouraging their local sites to discourage it as well. We were locally affected at the time as the WF branch that had our unit funds contacted us and said they no longer would allow us to bank there as a Non-Profit. Many on here likely recollect the confusion and serious ramifications of the time, until today, the worst negaitive publicity BSA had had in decades, if ever. Sad isn't it?

Maybe if we could find a way to erase the negative impacts of far too many unwarranted celebrities we might make progress. It is sort of like making movies and videos about the worst actors in society and seeing them hold ratings higher than most positive films. Far too much focus on these peoplek, in all major theaters of society, but especially the entertainment and sports environments, and of course the political circus.

How much credence do insurance companies even have today? They have far too much leverage and seem, in my view, likely to make decisions totally on monetary basis, and NOT on the reality of specific claims. Insurance carriers cannot ever never have claims, and their reason for existence, in theory, is that life is fickle and things can happen without intent or due to life in general. The lame excuse that it was, or is, an "act of God" is prominent in their response litany. Another is using broad samples to apply to specifically focused issues, rather than any data from the actual location or situation. Like in most large industries or corporations, they search for reasons to NOT give the very service for which they were sourced. Of course, much of the issue is still on our own backs from the respective that too many feel it is always someone else's fault or why should I have to remedy possible liabilities? Absolute safety is NOT possible, and no amount of written "rules" will totally stop poor decisions or the truly warped people of society. Still, the basic Scouting tenets are a strong foundation if used as intended.

Barry, I would like to believe that a "values development youth program" is really what parents are seeking, and those same values are dormant in the larger society for whatever reason. We can use all the "modern" words, but realtiy may be that we as a larger societal group have become jaded and feel like "what is the point?". Yet it is obvious that is exactly what is needed, in my view. And it still take hold and receives positive feedback in the too few instances that get into real media. On the FB feed "Talk About Scouting" I seem to see a great many likes from those following, but seldom posting, for anything that highlights the local positive images. For example, in the Aaron on Scouting page, he noted two Eagles who have founded a nuclear energy startup and asked them how Scouting helped and contributed. One specifically highlighted the foundational tenets of the program. And that shared quote has gotten huge positive response. Similarly in our local area, most posts noting this type o thing bring positive feedback, and likes. What is hard to deal with is that for some reason that apparent recognition of the "need" continues to go begging much of the time. Scouting really cannot succeed unless those base tenets are part and parcel, and we find a way to embed them in the larger society.

We continue to return to the messed up legl atmostphere here in this country, and also the lack of much control of insurance companies that choose to at a whim much of the time to have excuses to NOT pay claims, or if they do, to cancel or raise rates so people cannot afford it. All you need do is look at most of the insurance "bigs" and their corporate profits to see how much is being paid to stock holders and so on which could be paid to coverage at more equitable rate. I get so annoyed at the excuse "act of God" so we will not pay, or pay limited amounts. Much of the time the "act of God" would not have occurred if the insured had done proper maintencance. The utility companies are now feeling that coming to haunt them. It surely would have been less expensive to do regular and proper maintenance on lines within forests and such so they would not get out of control in a fire, or at least be less of an issue; but they chose to not pay, but rather put more profit in the holders' pockets. So, what can they say now?

Frankly, though I am aware some would scream and stomp feet and so on, I doubt many Scouters living the basic precepts of the Oath and Law would care if a young woman wore that pin on her Scouts USA uniform. I surely would have no issue and think that now, if a GS were to earn Eagle or similar Scout BSA award that she might also wear a pin or knot related to it on her GS uniform. But, that wouold likely raise even more clamor. Respect and fair representation of achievement is always worth noting with people, and especially youth.

A personal issue, but knee-jerk judgment is a sure indicator of likely automatic bias. JMHO of course. Do not see how the term Americanism, or the likely definition, is in itself a bad thing. Now, a fly on the wall might judge otherwise.

"A background check and insurance can't possibly cost $60." https://blog.verifirst.com/blog/bid/305407/cost-of-a-background-check-how-much-should-you-pay Add the cost of fingerprinting in many cases, anywhere from fifty plus dollars from what I have seen. Locally for the minimum it approaches one hundred dollars. Juat saying: a background without a complete search is not what they need, especially today.

So, again we will see comments that ignore other youth activity costs. That is the standard, and has been such for a while now. BSA kept cost per member low for decades in comparison to most other groups, and they still are on averge less. Here is one comparative example, and there are others. It is not clear what additional costs may incur in relation these, and it does not indicate what the cost includes. A little digging may clarify; but one likely would expect it to cover similar organizational needs, such as hopefully some form of YP/background process, including vetting adults. My impression is that the YP issues may yet not be broadly faced by many groups as they are smaller and also have not attracted the lawyers. https://www.playgroundequipment.com/the-average-cost-of-each-childrens-sport/#:~:text=The average cost of youth,child each year is %24693. And, my observations locally over a long while is that many that yell the loudest have little issue with numerous frivioul costs for their youth, icluding yearly trips to major theme parks, regular fast food, video games, and phones, to note a few. Just saying, it is not easily assessed, and not likely apples to oranges.

It was stopped due to Covid; but is that now lifted? It should be. Of course, many areas have them active in local cemeteries.

They are offering old light houses for historic care and maintencance, some as donations, and some available to purchase. Most appear to be on the East coast, which is somewhat to be expected I suppose. Is on near one of our High Adventure bases? It certainly could add to a program, though the upkeep is likely not viable. All of them are hostorical though it appears.

Scouting is local. The unit is local and owned or allowed space by a CO or now church agreement. Whether or not the CO, or other connected organization is on the shirt or necker designs is up to them and is not advertiaing. Advertising is trying to sell something at the expense of the troop logo. Today we seldom see real advertising with BSA connections due to the laws in place. In the early decades Scouts often were seen in actual ads, and some were well paid I think, though the really early ones probably less likely. So, come to an agreement or move in another direction. It is still a local issue it seems to me, specific to your situation.

How is this connected to Scouting.? It looks like a typical sport team shirt or something. Just asking.

Yes, there it is, in theory anyway, and writing. Still, we continue to see adults with all of the things noted in your share be second guessed or criticized by other adults. And those qualified leaders or supervisors are pushed sometimes to just give up. IF they are there, unless they are letting something dangerous happen, they should be allowed to act as they feel is proper. It happens outside of Scouting too. But, thank you for that very concise link.

It seems too often that I read here and elsewhere that certain "rules or restrictions" must be put in place to make everything safe and smooth running. And one of those is that we MUST have adult supervision. So what does that mean? Too often I see it meaning that some other adult must make that judgment with those restrictions and rules, and that we that are in theory the "adult supervision" are unable to do the job. This makes little sense in many instances, and it is often a subject here as to what that means somehow. Just as we need to allow the youth to learn from doing and even failing or having poor outcomes, do we not also need to allow the leaders to actually be leaders; the "adult supervision"? I realize of course that much of this is due to our societal concerns that seem to overreact to too many things and then make it into litigation. Still, what is the point if we live with the idea that "adult supervision" is never actually allowed. If the adult is not allowed to make judgment calls. Just my frustration I suppose. Or, am I on target?

Unless they "fix" the so called election process, including restructuring how many can be elected per unit, somewhat like twenty or so years ago, they will not see much improvement. As already noted here ad nausium, it is no longer something most youth aspire to, as it has lost any real image or valid honor position. Add the lack of barely any accountibility at ordeals on violating the simple rules, and we are where we seem to be now. Additionally, unless the mystique is reestablished in ceremonies with those doing them prepared and "knowing" thier lines (not reading), it will continue to have little real interest other than the checked box.

IMHO it is our screwed up legal system that allows lawyers to cause issues where there are none, or they are minor. Far too many ridiculous monetary payouts for things that are mostly part of the larger human race. The issue we face(d) likely would never have even gone to court in much of the world, and our media just makes it worse by their skewed focus on sensationalism.

Another example of some adults overstepping. It sounds as if they are suggesting the youth, or the troop, or both do not have the intelligence or understanding to follow the pretty much bullet pointed form. Oh my gosh, someone might use imagination or out of the box thinking. Seems sad to me, and if it was from my district I would be on them directly, as I did once when someone on the district "Eagle Committee" told us that we had approved a project that was out of line with the intent. I had to actually read the detailed phrases and then ask them to explain how it was not done right or acceptible. The district head resigned, but sometimes it is just too much.

Two seeparate versions of the program. The British or likely original BP concept leading to hopefully a smoother transition. In the Patrol system, as noted by Hillcourt, yes the patrol members would vote for a patrol leader, ideally. But, as understood, I believe, there is an adult option to veto that in "rare" circumstances. But, that should be the last option; often the floundering youth finds his way and surprises us. As adults, it can be very hard to watch the new leaders struggle, but that is part of the process.

My councill is not on this list. What does that possibly indicate? Are these ones that sold property, or just what they are being asked for? I do not know for sure, but we had a settlement from a wildfire loss during this period, so that may be related?

That just goes to show that I was not up on any such change. I had thought the 20 miles was part of the badge since "always", and it was one reason it was often not attempted.

Like most of these types of things, it is variable as to the best approach. Ultimately, it is the leader that needs to decide, an d as long as it does not obviously contradict vague "rules or guides" there is not wrong answer. This idea that everything is black or white is just ignorant. Sky changes with the light it receives, and so do most human perspectives.

We may need to be careful to not equate understanding cultura elements of various NA groups, with the inuendo of of Cultural Appropriation. Too many, it seems to me, jump overboard if even a mention of NA history or culture is put into discussion. Many of our issues in todays society seem to be overreactions to simple knowledge of others and their thoughts and histories. And often, that accusation is aimed specifically at the WAS parts of our society. Again, just my opininion.

As an addin. Much of my early knowledge and views of Native Americans came from the generation of which I spoke above. But, I was an avid reader of good historical novels, as well as off the wall bits of history. That on occasion, with the better writers, touched on realities and inequities, but also on real intercultural mixing. Then when I took two courses in NA History, as well as an anthro course on NA language connections, I finally began understanding better. Episodes of cultural history can happen instantaeously, but the real picture takes dcades and longer.