shortridge

"There's no requirement that he wear anything but his underwear, but I expect most of us would expect a boy to be clothed at a BOR, too." Shirt & shoes required in most public buildings, too.

"I knwo that some have mentioned that all rank and insignia have to be sewn on/attached directly to the uniform." While I don't have an IG in front of me, I'm fairly certain this isn't a rule, and thus the reason why you can't locate it. If it were, everyone who velcroed, ironed on or BadgeMatic'd their patches would be breaking the rules. And what makes staples different from sewing thread? They're both methods of attaching it directly to the uniform. "I have some parents that think attaching the patches is an option. I have some that use tape or STAPLES to attach the uniforms. Talk about being taken aback when I saw that. I made the boy take it off as we were in a christmas parade and I thought it just looked horrible." I know this wasn't the main point of your post, but I'm not sure I see the need to have done this. It only singles the Cub out for ridicule. Perhaps he stapled it on himself because his parents were too busy or unavailable and he wanted to show how proud he was of earning that patch; perhaps his parents don't know how to sew. He just wants to wear the uniform correctly. Were your Cubs moving so slowly in the parade, and so close to the sidewalks, that the viewers could see that it was held on with staples? I doubt it.

"Yah, one thing that's very true across most councils is that DE's are woefully undertrained and lacking in experience when it comes to institutional development / soliciting donations. Add to that that it's a high-pressure activity for 'em, and often their job depends on the results." Don't know about anyone else, but if I were a DE or in a similar position where my job depended on the results of my fundraising work, I'd be darn sure to get up to speed on the rules, ethics and other sundry details. And if I were an SE, I'd darn sure want my DEs to have the best training possible before sending them out into the field where their work is a direct reflection on me and the organization I lead.

Anyone affected by this who would like to complain should make a call to the council's finance or fundraising director. If they're worth their pay, they're probably a member of at least one professional fundraising association, which have very strict codes of ethics that, by my layman's reading, prohibit this type of activity. Even if the missive didn't come from that professional (might it have been an overzealous volunteer?), it's their responsibility to train and oversee the fundraising operations. The "Donor Bill of Rights," developed by several fundraising groups, includes this item: "To be assured that information about their donations is handled with respect and with confidentiality to the extent provided by law." The Association of Fundraising Professionals' ethical code includes several examples of unethical practice that relate to confidentiality and would seem to apply to this situation: - Disclosing confidential information to unauthorized persons. - Providing a donor's file to unauthorized individuals or organizations. - Sharing donor information with friends, relatives and colleagues not involved in fundraising, or in social settings involving volunteers or administrative or professional staff of their organization. - Revealing the identity of an anonymous donor to others without the authorization of the donor. Visit www.afpnet.org for details.

(Sorry in advance for the length.) Looking at this from a slightly different perspective ... I'd be very interested in looking at this unit's outdoor program calendar, and figuring out how they fit in multiple 50 milers in a year's time, plus do the "regular" outdoor program that younger Scouts can partake of. Assuming about 12 miles traveled per day (about six hours on the trail, a reasonable pace ... can any paddling experts do the on-the-water calculations?), that's four days required for every 50-miler. Add another day for total travel time, and you've got most of a week that leaders have to be off work and Scouts have to be out of school. So unless this unit does multiple 50-milers over the summer (maybe one in place of residential summer camp?), plus one each during spring break and during Christmas/New Year's break, it would take more than a couple of years to fit six 50-milers in - and that assumes, of course, that all Scouts can attend all of the treks. And we all know that doesn't happen, when you add in family vacations, spring break trips and holiday travel plans for both leaders and Scouts. If the unit has some sort of magic plan for scheduling these trips, I'd like to hear it. Maybe they're one of these giant troops with lots of ASMs who have plenty of time off and ultra-flexible schedules to accompany the boys. (This assumes, of course, that they're not an independent Patrol trek-style troop.) I think the natural next questions to the SM, phrased in a friendly manner, would be if he's ever turned down a Scout who "just" had five treks under his belt, why he selected that number for a cutoff, and how he and the PLC manage to make sure that all Scouts get the same opportunity to go on a sufficient number of expeditions over a couple of years. Additional questions... Curiously: Does he make exceptions for the Scout who joins at age 16, or would he just tell him bluntly: "No. You cannot earn Eagle in this troop"? And: If the troop just does one 50-miler a year, say, then a Scout that joins right from Webelos can't earn Eagle before age 16? The thought also occurs to me that perhaps this SM is one of those full-of-hot-air types who likes to brag on his Scouts' manly-men outdoor expertise when reality is something entirely different.

I think you've hit on the best solution possible. The focus should be on instruction, not approval. I could see exceptions for some badges - such as Lifesaving, Motorboating, Waterskiing, Climbing and the shooting sports disciplines - where it's very difficult for a Scout to find a counselor with the proper equipment and training outside of the camp structure. But the vast majority of the badges - handicrafts, nature, outdoors skills, etc. - that are now taught by minors shouldn't be signed off at camp, IMHO. An alternative is to drop the badges entirely and focus on skills and subjects not explicitly tied to advancement - running sessions on fire-by-friction, boat rescues, tracking & trailing, search and rescue, etc.

If that page gets photocopied any more, it'll become unreadable! Does that represent the quality of most WB handouts? It looks like a page that someone pulled out of a file folder from the '80s.

Gern, Is your son going to summer camp? Most camps that I know of offer BSA Lifeguard. It might not be listed in the council calendar, but it's there. At my local camp, it's an all-day, week-long program.

"Why aren't there any awards for scouts who excell in school." I would gently suggest that there are already plenty of awards for academic achievement - honor rolls, student of the month honors, student-athlete awards, college scholarships - aside from the GPA itself. Most Scouting awards and honors are for work done in the Scouting program. There are plenty of academic-type opportunities within Scouting - Scholarship, Reading and the Citizenship MBs, for starters - to help support and recognize Scouts who are talented or have interests in those areas.

Sorry, bad post.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

If you're seeking a forum to share troop leadership ideas and information - though perhaps not event-specific info that would be distributed at Roundtable - the local Order of the Arrow lodge or chapter would seem to be a perfect place to reach many of the youth leaders involved. Perhaps something could be worked out by synchronizing chapter meetings and RTs.

"I don't think it's about money (Buying another car) As both parents have good jobs. I think she just doesn't trust the Lad." Pardon me for the minor hijack... but... if he's over 18, can't he get his license on his own?

1. Keep an open mind and open ears. No matter where you are, there will be intricate district politics at play - long-standing relationships and antagonisms that began years ago - and getting in the middle is only going to wear you out. Don't join sides. 2. In making your fundraising pitches, avoid generalizations and cliches - "The economy is bad," "we're all feeling the pinch," "do more with less," etc. Your audience knows that's tripe and trite. Instead, use specifics... A donation to FOS will help send 10 more Cubs to day camp, allow the council to lower weekend camp fees, keep a COPE course open, etc. Keep the pitch positive without sounding like you've drunk the Council kool-aid. 3. Set aside family and personal time for yourself, inviolate and untouchable, on a weekly basis. A professional has a difficult job, and you need to recharge.

This is a fascinating topic. I've been very interested for a while in the "units-plus-one" idea of success for a district (and thus for a DE). Neil - I'm curious where your rules of thumb come from, particularly the 25 percent membership rate. I ran the numbers for my county/district, based on Census population estimates. There are 28,000 youth between ages 5 and 18 in my county. A 50-50 split between boys and girls means 14,000 boys. A 25 percent membership rate equals 3,500 Cubs and Boy Scouts, and there's no way we're meeting that. There are just under 15 troops in the district; I'm not sure how many packs, but I'll assume two packs per troop (a very generous measure). Again, being generous, I'll assume an average troop membership of 30 and pack membership of 40. That's only 1,650 boys. So there'd be plenty of room to, say, double the number of units without tapping out the available pool of boys.

Delivered in a mouse accent: Please bless this food, keep us fat, and save us from the puddy tat!

With regard to preprinted ballots, there is a line of thinking that argues those candidates whose names are listed first have a greater chance of success than those down-ballot, because voters are essentially lazy and just go down the list. That's why some election jurisdictions randomize names on the ballot, go alphabetically or mix up the parties (so that the Libertarians might go first, and not the Democrats or Republicans). Especially with a large group of candidates, the same problem might introduce itself into an OA election. I've never run an election for a troop that large, however, so I have no first-hand experience.

A quick comment (not trying to coax more worms out). Just as there are people who prefer only worshiping in their own faith tradition, there are folks such as myself who do appreciate and enjoy the "generic" services that are offered up by Scouts themselves. A "chapel service" at summer camp is not the same as Saturday at a synagogue or lone meditation, and I know that going in. It's a time for those who wish to do so to come together and renew and remind ourselves the universality of the outdoors and creation. Story time. In my youth, I attended a regional merit badge camporee at the Naval Academy in Annapolis, a day-long on-campus event with classes taught by midshipmen, usually former Scouts themselves. At the end of the day, on Saturday evening, there were a variety of worship services offered in the various Academy chapels. I recall separate services for Protestants, Catholics and Jews - there may have been more. All were held at the same time so no participant missed anything. Anyway, if it's good enough at the Naval Academy, it might be good enough for GoldFox's situation.

Pumpkin. Finest-kind! And thanks to the moderators.

Yeah, FScouter's right. The troop committee should butt out. It has no role in this situation. If the PLC wants to set a policy, that's entirely its prerogative. That said, $15 seems a bit much. I can get 4-5 alleged "meals" at Mickey D's for that price. Bulk buying, comparison shopping, price lists and purchasing of raw ingredients (not packaged or convenience foods) should bring that down considerably.

"She would like to know what we will do to protect her son during our overnight camp in two weeks." Flip it back on her. What do they do at home to keep the boy from walking out the front door in the middle of the night? What does his doctor recommend? You shouldn't have to jury-rig a system. And you shouldn't place the entire responsibility for this boy's well-being on other Scouts or leaders who aren't experienced in dealing with sleepwalking. Requiring one of his parents to come along at least for the first few campouts seems a very logical compromise.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Yeah, it depends on whom you're talking too, I think! For a competition, which areas you pick to grade don't really matter, as long as they're communicated to the patrols ahead of time. You don't want one patrol cooking a great-tasting meal, thinking that's what the goal is, but losing points because it took an hour vs. the 20 minutes another patrol took. To me, it's something that doesn't require much - or any - cook or prep time. The best breakfast or lunch is one you can eat while walking, IMHO - no cooking involved. Dinners also require simplicity, but you have more time.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. It's not the time for the adviser to step in, but for the youth leaders to buck it up the chain of command. That's the way the lodge works. A visit to Roundtable from the elections chairman, the vice-chief for inductions or the lodge chief himself just might do the trick for some recalcitrant leaders. The officer should speak sternly and firmly, but in a friendly manner, and make sure the leaders understand who is in charge. The adviser stepping in might solve the immediate problem. But it also will reinforce the false perception that the youth don't really run the show. In the long run, that's more damaging to the program. The trick, if there is any, is getting older, experienced, mature and well-spoken election team members who have plenty of self-confidence and are trained ... not in having an adult jump in and save the day.

Part of training an elections team should involve concrete advice on how to stand up to an adult who's trying to corrupt the process, either intentionally or inadvertently. A good team shouldn't need an adviser present to back them up. But I understand in many cases they do. The issue of whether OA elections are popularity contests is one for another thread, methinks. I would simply say that most of those who get elected because they're popular don't stick around for very long, and aren't representative of the Order as a whole. A lodge or chapter is only as good as the members, and the members are only as good as the Scouts from whom they were chosen.

Skills challenges and constant repetition are good ways to make sure the skills sink in. But teaching them just as isolated "skills" needed primarily for rank advancement won't get you very far in the long run. The best way to get where you need to be is for the PLC to sit down and do a skills inventory - figure out where their patrol members are weakest. Then design a series of campouts and hikes where those skills are incorporated as part and parcel of the expedition in practical ways, not contrived contests for "points." If they're weak on knots, they are given tarps instead of tents and told to rig up shelters. If it's firebuilding they need help with, they have to cook all their meals over an open fire, using one match to start. If it's first aid, hook up with a local paramedic, SAR team or ER nurse who can help create a frighteningly realistic rescue/first aid scenario for someone the Scouts encounter on a hike in a remote area. Totin' Chip? All their fires have to be prepared with split wood and fuzz sticks. After they've gotten the skills down firmly, you can work on patrol competitions and "top of the heap" bragging rights to keep them up.

The discussion seems to have gotten a little cluttered. The example given by the OP was this: "Pack goes on an overnight campout, child is not there but the adult is there and is not a leader or any other role in the Pack." This is not a question about people who volunteer after their Cubs have aged out, or about people with no children who just want to help. This is about a parent who's there when his or her child is not, who is not a registered leader and does not hold any position in the pack. Unless, as others have pointed out, that parent has a special skill - perhaps the mom is a chef who's agreed to do a cooking demo, or the dad is a handyman who's running a craft activity - but the Cub is sick or has another commitment and can't come, he or she should not be there, IMHO. Especially with an overnight campout, the situation as described would raise my eyebrows. An adult can go camping by his or her lonesome any time, any place - you don't need a pack trip as an outlet for your outdoors experiences. Cub camping is family camping. If you don't have another member of your family present, what are you doing there?