shortridge

Is that list for the whole patrol? I would have them use space blankets, trash bags or plastic sheeting instead of a commercial tarp. If you're not giving them water, make sure they have some sort of treatment system beyond boiling. If you decide not to use the can for space, I might add in a couple of eggs. Increases the challenge slightly by making them figure out a way to carry as well as cook. Another option would be to assemble all the materials that have been listed here, plus some more not mentioned (particularly tasty food) - a big can of peaches, chocolate bars, a cheap used paperback novel, a single can of soda, etc. - and give them two minutes to pick X number of items. Consider giving them a "Your-plane-crashed-and-you-have-two-minutes-to-salvage-stuff-before-it-blows-up" -type of scenario. Depending on their skills and the weather, also think about substituting the matches for flint & steel, fire-by-friction, a magnifying glass, etc. (It's also theoretically possible to start a fire with a Hershey bar and soda can, though I've never done it.)

BrentAllen has a great suggestion with regard to space. Let them choose what they'll take - that's the best way they'll learn. Try a can, small shoebox or what they can fit in one pocket.

1. Backpacking 2. First Aid 3. Wilderness Survival 4. Pioneering 5. Lifesaving

My local camp has an "Eagle Base" program area that offers Citizenship in the Nation, Citizenship in the World, Communications and Personal Management. Participants have to be 14, Life or past the 8th grade. It began about 15-20 years ago as a provisional, post-camp program run by volunteers. Older Scouts would attend and take the above badges, plus such items as Lifesaving, BSA Lifeguard, etc. They'd get a discounted rate and in return help take down camp. Nowadays, it's just another program area. IMHO, summer camp should be a place for outdoors-oriented programs. You shouldn't go to camp to sit indoors. There are plenty of counselors out there for the Eagle-required badges - it's just a matter of the Scout reaching out.

"Ooops," uttered by any individual working as the camp cook.

This very issue came up today at my daughter's ballet class. An informal poll of parents indicated that only one or two carried actual cash, or even had cash in the house aside from what's in the kids' piggy banks. I do try to carry some cash as an emergency backup - $50 or $100 or so - in case there's a massive power outage and the ATMs go down. But my daughter (age 4) brought it home to me recently when she was playing store, and asked me: "Debit or credit?" Despite my debit-card ways, BrentAllen, I've been thinking about such a cash-budgeting system for a while. There was an interesting article on the subject a while back in Backwoods Home Magazine. Have to dig it out again and look up Dave Ramsey to boot. Thanks for the food for thought.

Burning through a string doesn't really test anything except the speed of the fire. A far better test of both firebuilding and cooking skills would be to give the patrols an egg and hardboil it. If it's runny inside, you're DQ'd.

Awesome. I bow down to you - your experience by far exceeds mine! Good to hear you're engaging the local media. I'm constantly amazed in my area how few units reach out. There's one troop in the area that writes a regular column for a weekly paper, and that's it, aside from an occasional submitted grip & grin photo. I went out and covered the local Klondike last year, and had a great time and great story. But I had to pursue it on my own - it never occurred to the district to invite a reporter along. Those types of stories are fun and easy for both sides.

That comparison (Wilderness Survival to Lifesaving) is a problematic one in my mind. There are generally accepted principles involved in lifesaving techniques, plus a ton of certifications and a bunch of hoops you have to jump through to achieve those. There is therefore a generally recognized authority with a standard set of information to draw from. There's no similar system in survival. Yes, you can take courses through NOLS or SOLO or another comparable organization. You can study at the knees of Tom Brown or Christopher Nyerges. But there's no "Tom Brown Survivalist" certification that teaches you to teach others. There's no "Red Cross Wilderness Instructor" program you can graduate from. Information on edibles varies widely from region to region. And all that together creates a lot of problems with the quality of teaching. I'd much rather have my child master those "hug-a-tree" basics you deride than risk having an ignorant instructor give her potentially deadly misinformation about edible plants. People who have been lost will tell you their attitude and approach - not panicking - was critically important, and that's large part of what the requirements are about. If she's lost, I'd much rather that she know about signaling techniques and how to attract attention instead of wasting time constructing elaborate deadfalls because her gung-ho wannabe survivalist teacher focused more on trapping small animals for food than on ground-to-air signals. That's not to say the badge is perfect. Yes, perhaps there should be more action tasks in the Wilderness Survival requirements. I definitely think the pamphlet should be fleshed out more with regard to shelter and firestarting techniques. And I think two nights in a shelter would be better than just one. By way of contrast, Wilderness Survival has nine action verbs in its requirements (show, list, put together, build, show, demonstrate, improvise, demonstrate, show), and just five "talk" verbs (discuss, describe, describe, explain, explain). Livesaving has 15 action verbs, five "talk" verbs and one either/or (show or explain).(This message has been edited by shortridge)(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Mafaking - Scouts shouldn't have that impression if they've read the MB pamphlet or even scanned the requirements. There's nothing in there about eating roots, building snares or carving a canoe out of a tree trunk. If you or your Scouts have had a bad experience with Wilderness Survival, I'd suggest it's due to the teaching, not the badge. Just as one example, I've seen "classes" where students have been brought to a clearing and told: "Make your shelter." They prop some sticks up against a tree, throw a plastic bag over it, and pray it doesn't rain. That shouldn't cut it. (The Venturing Ranger award requirements have the Venturer sleep two nights in his or her shelter. I think that's a much better test of durability and construction skills.) The fact remains that most people are rescued within a day or two after they're reported lost. The skills, therefore, rightfully focus on short-term survival techniques. But there's nothing stopping an ambitious Scout from becoming a fire-by-friction expert, or even a counselor from teaching fire-by-friction beyond a few minutes with the bow-drill kit.

Are you kidding? "Top Gun" provided the soundtrack to about two years of the time I spent on camp staff. Later this year the camp will host a regional conference on timber management and will be recognized for it forest management program. Think that will make the papers? [begin rant-like observations] If no one tells the papers, it won't! I'm a journalist by profession, and I'm perpetually amazed by how many people - savvy people, smart people - seem to think that we are omniscient, supposed to know about events even without being told. Or better yet, that we can drop what we're doing and head over to cover their event with an hour's notice. So please make sure you suggest to your council's marketing director that he or she drop a few bugs in the local papers' ears, well in advance of the event ... make sure there are good visuals, not just people sitting around a table talking ... provide the big-picture background of "what this means" ... and communicate why non-Scouts should care. Today, the environment is a key issue for many people and reporters. If your marketing folks can pitch the story in a way that goes beyond "We're getting an award from XYZ association" to "We've had Scouts, adult volunteers, experts out working on this conservation effort, we've saved 2,000 trees from beetle infestations" or whatever ... it'll be a much better story. Better yet ... take your local reporter out for a cup of coffee and explain to them what it means yourself. Like Scouters, most of us live on the stuff - we won't turn you down.

Kahuna - I thought Title Four was the Flag Code, encompassing all Sections therein. And isn't the Venturing salute already the full hand salute - no finger-bending necessary?(This message has been edited by shortridge)

"I also remember being made to fall backwards off a picknick table and being caught by my Arrowmen brothers... I'm SURE that was considered hazing in the 80's as well. But it was openly tolerated, if not encouraged." Was it a trust fall? Those have been around for a while, and are part of the COPE program. Not hazing.

(Just a reminder that this particular thread is not safeguarded...) gwd-scouter, I know many excellent Arrowmen who have health issues, sometimes of a severe nature. They all went through the Ordeal and are active contributors. The Ordeal is, at its core, an individual, personal challenge, and you really get out of it what you put into it. I once assisted with a candidate who, midway through the process, found out that she was hypoglycemic. I had to make an emergency run for orange juice to help her keep from passing out. She made it through, in part due to the support of other Arrowmen and her fellow candidates, and is now the chapter adviser. The lodge can and will make accommodations to help you. It's in no way "special treatment." I'm not in your shoes, but you might want to reconsider.

Cave Exploring is an elective for the Venturing Ranger Award: http://www.usscouts.org/advance/venturing/Electives/Caves.asp

John-in-KC, Really? Wow. That's fascinating. I don't ever remember more than a handful of people at our Sunday service, and they were as bland as bland could be.

Twocubdad, Would you be willing to post some ideas or suggestions from your NCS sessions here? Or perhaps start a new thread? I consider myself a fairly good scrounger - I'm definitely a pack-rat type. But even a Flight Lt. Bob Hendley can learn some new tricks. Thanks!

MileHigh, I think ScoutNut's point was pretty clear - that H&S training is not required, as you initially stated. Your other statement - "The syllabus suggests that where another adult is available, its best to not use married couples." - is also incorrect, by my reading of the syllabus. If you have page numbers, please cite them so I can find the suggestion you refer to.

"It's our job as Arrowmen Scouters to make sure youth members do not confuse the Order with a religious practice." I'm not sure that this is much of a problem. I've known many youth Arrowmen who did their work religiously (as in the single-minded pursuit of excellence), particularly ceremonialists. But I've yet to meet anyone who has begun active worship of the Chief of the Fire. The only "devotion" the Order stresses is to the welfare of others. That's the true calling.

Veterans, of course, could have done this any time they wished to in the past. The Flag Code is not binding on civilians.

If you go with a pitchfork symbol, you'd have to include everyone who's gone through Sea Badge... the trident looks kind of like a pitchfork, doesn't it?

Oh, heck, did I do the math wrong? Hang on... Ah, yeah, I screwed up. Sorry. If my memory still holds true, I got about $400 my first summer. Divided by 8 weeks, that's $50 a week. Those of us who'd been CITs got a little extra our first year on paid staff. I think (hope) that's still the case.

One badge that may be tempting, but which I'd suggest holding off on for a while: Pioneering. The knots and basic lashings are simple, and should be mastered by First Class. But to really develop skill in building gadgets and structures - and especially in splicing - you need more experience handling rope. The more knots you tie, the more comfortable you'll be putting together a tower or working with a rope's innards. It can be really frustrating to try to build a tripod and watch the poles slide down time after time because you didn't do it right. That frustration can contribute to the "I hate knots" syndrome, or worse, giving up entirely.

"But you know, if BSA allowed local option for membership policies, none of this would be a problem. The parents would make their market-based decisions and some units would thrive and others would be selected against." Not to hijack the thread, but I struggle over this one. Part of the large attraction of Scouting, to me, is its general universality. (I'm putting the gays and atheist issue aside for right now.) Local option could mean that in a mostly conservative Christian area, say, all the units end up excluding Jews. So the one Jewish boy who's really intensely interested in Scouting would have to go the Lone Scout route, and not get the benefit of associating with other boys. And if every aspect of membership were local option - including race or ethnicity, say - I think the congressional charter would be yanked in a heartbeat. The flipside, I suppose, is that units could choose to allow gays or atheists or anyone of any religious character whatsoever. To me, that's positive. It would just depend on the units. - Bad Parent

"But you know, if BSA allowed local option for membership policies, none of this would be a problem. The parents would make their market-based decisions and some units would thrive and others would be selected against." Not to hijack the thread, but I struggle over this one. Part of the large attraction of Scouting, to me, is its general universality. (I'm putting the gays and atheist issue aside for right now.) Local option could mean that in a mostly conservative Christian area, say, all the units end up excluding Jews. So the one Jewish boy who's really intensely interested in Scouting would have to go the Lone Scout route, and not get the benefit of associating with other boys. And if every aspect of membership were local option - including race or ethnicity, say - I think the congressional charter would be yanked in a heartbeat. The flipside, I suppose, is that units could choose to allow gays or atheists or anyone of any religious character whatsoever. To me, that's positive. It would just depend on the units. - Bad Parent