shortridge

When I crossed over to my first troop in 1991, they were known across the district for their red berets. Only a handful of the older Scouts had managed to get the official-issue ones, and the rest of us had to make do with knockoffs. They gave the troop a real pride in the uniform when combined with the matching custom red neckerchiefs. Nowadays, my opinion is a bit different. I sweat like a pig while standing in my shorts in a snowdrift, and wearing anything over the top of my head dramatically intensifies the effect. (You ever seen someone melt?) But on Scouts, I still think they look darn sharp. Nike - Just as an observation, in some religions and cultures, wearing headgear or head coverings indoors is a sign of respect or faith. Not everyone who wears a hat under a roof is being disrespectful or forgetful.

I've seen the same thing at my daughter's preschool, where kids and their parents bring in snacks on a weekly rotating basis. Some weeks the selection is healthier than others. But for the most part, in my experience, kids will eat whatever's put in front of them as long as you call it a snack. The first time that it was my daughter's turn, she and I brainstormed and brought grapes for the first day. We bought two large bags for eight kids, and they devoured them. Not a one left. Ditto for apple slices and oranges. She wants to do blueberries, but it would cost a mint to feed all those little ravenous wolves until they're back in season. As a Cub myself, we never had pack refreshments, and I don't recall den refreshments, either.

and trying to convince someone else to try a few drops of warm urine to cure an earache. Yeah, finding willing victims for that one might be a bit difficult.

Sorry, I didn't mean it as a correction, just an observation. I was kind of surprised myself by how many there were that made for a natural fit. Yeah, Cinematography and Golf ... plus Auto Mechanics and Photography. And Art. And Graphic Arts, Oceanography, Chemistry and Archaeology. Plus Computers, Communications and Personal Management. Archaeology makes complete sense, as there are several archaeological and historical sites on the camp property, and it was once home to a local Native American tribe. Oceanography, maybe. Chemistry ... there's no way a summer camp is going to have the same resources to counsel ont he topic that a professional chemist would. The others I flat-out really don't understand.

I'm going to be taking an LNT Trainer course next month, and wanted to pick some collective, experienced brains in advance. How do you implement LNT principles in your unit? Are there any specific lessons or demonstrations that you've found that are especially effective with Scouts? Any topics or practices that have posed special challenges?(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Running a Powerpoint seminar off a couple of headlamps and flashlights on the side of a tent... I give up. Deep-freeze me with my paper-bound books and wake me when it's over. Seriously, though. Write a book about the history of Scouting if you want a book about the history of Scouting. Don't mess with the Handbook's role as one of the most vital tools that Scouts have. And especially don't shove the important information to the Web.

"A website will provide in-depth information on many subjects." So it'll be modeled after the virtually worthless Venturing Ranger book? Grrreeaat. You can shove a book in your backpack and consult it by the light of the campfire at your whim. You can't do that with a computer screen

Looks like he picked the coolest titles to start with. I mean, who wouldn't want to be a mountain-climbing archer dentist who can build nuclear devices while sailing away to his personal vet clinic-slash-pottery studio? It's great to see that enthusiasm. And you did just the right thing in focusing it a wee bit.

Hal, Actually, I came up with 31 badges that could be offered within the traditional camp program areas, minus the bizarre outliers such as Golf, the Citizenships, Cinematography, etc. (All of which are now offered at my local council camp ... sigh.) They are: Camping, Cooking, Pioneering, Orienteering, Wilderness Survival, First Aid, Emergency Preparedness, Fire Safety and Fishing; Archery, Rifle Shooting, Shotgun Shooting and Climbing; Basketry, Indian Lore, Wood Carving, Pottery and Leatherwork; Environmental Science, Nature, Fish and Wildlife Management, Insect Study, Forestry, Reptile and Amphibian Study and Astronomy; Swimming, Lifesaving, Rowing, Canoeing, Small-Boat Sailing and Motorboating. Regardless, that Scout was either very busy or very short-changed. I'll put my money down on the latter.

Eagle92 - And the Brigadier would send all those Babylon 5 heads a'knocking. Now where did I leave that blue box?

Unless National is revising the requirements, the HB still has to have the same basic material. Sounds like more of a packaging and presentation strategy.

Lots of interesting info in the cost of camp thread about counselors-in-training, and I figured it warranted a spinoff. I got in as a CIT in 1994 at age 13 (I turned 14 in August, so technically got in under the 14-year-old age cutoff). We didn't get paid, but we got room and board and midnight PB&J sandwiches and all the other staff perks. (Foosball! Video snight! Electricity in wall tents!) We rotated among Boy Scout program areas for three weeks, spending a week in each area, did a half-week of retraining for Cub camp and then worked as "program specialists" for the Cub dens - leading them around camp, helping with program areas, leading songs and games, etc. Those of us who'd been den chiefs had a leg up. We all worked the full summer, 10 weeks total. Most returned the next year as paid staff, with a bonus for their CIT service. Opening up the floor: Have you or your son been a CIT? When? Did you get paid? What was your job? Did you work the whole summer, or just a few weeks?(This message has been edited by shortridge)

packsaddle, I hear you on the capital costs - that's a whole 'nother ballgame. I can't imagine what it would cost to start a camp from scratch these days, from land purchase to design to construction, even with a lot of donated labor and supplies. I do think that not publicizing the full operating cost hurts councils in the long run. Parents and Scouts see the fee charged ($200, $300, whatever) and assume, rather reasonably, that's what it takes to run the camp. When those costs go up - whether because of a lousy year for donations or increased input costs - they gripe and groan, not unreasonably.

You asked for opinions, and mine is that it's an awful idea. It turns the whole advancement method into a race, when the goal should be quality of skills learned, not speed or quantity. I can see the value in themed camporees built around one merit badge topic - Wilderness Survival or Pioneering, say - but I wouldn't expect the Scouts to earn the entire badge there. Camporees should, IMHO, be a place to introduce Scouts to new or advanced skills and reinforce those skills through patrol competition.

A word of caution - Charges don't mean he's been found guilty. The 120 days jail time may be the maximum sentence that he could receive.

Eamonn, Thanks for that clarification. I have no idea how much bulk powdered eggs actually cost, and was deliberately trying to lowball those figures. I think almost every food item at my old camp was courtesy of the fine folks at Sysco, though they probably gave a nice discount to the camp.

Ammunition: As you said, at some camps it's donated, while others charge a fee. I'm hoping to get at an approximate base figure for running this average camp, regardless of donations and recycling efforts. Merit badge books: I was referring to the updated pamphlets provided to the staff counselors. Blue cards: Most troops bring them, but others don't.

Lisabob, Insurance is indeed in the laundry list. I would imagine it is the biggest line item for most summer camps, but don't have any solid info to back that up. Think about all the "dangerous stuff" we do - sending kids out into the woods on survival treks, chopping logs, carving with knives, swimming and diving and snorkeling, motorboating, climbing 50 feet above the ground, shooting rifles and shotguns and arrows ... yikes. Enough to give your local risk management inspector a heart attack.

Salaries vary widely from camp to camp. I'm using my own experience as a baseline, but if anyone has better figures, let's plug them in. As an 18-year-old NCS-trained Scoutcraft director in 1998, I took home just under $2,000 for 11 weeks of work (1 week of NCS + 8 weeks of program + 1 week training + 1 week teardown). I used that figure as an average, estimating that the 18+ year-old staffers needed to run a camp by NCS standards would net higher salaries. They include area directors for the waterfront, pool, COPE course, climbing program, archery, shotgun, rifle shooting, Scoutcraft, handicrafts and nature/ecology. The aquatics, shooting sports and COPE directors generally take home larger paychecks, in my experience. If the camp is running according to MBC standards (all counselors 18+), then you'd have a lot more adults on staff in non-director positions, all of whom would be expecting and asking for larger salaries based on their experience.

Based upon packsaddles suggestion in the FOS thread, that the fee charged for summer camp incorporate the entire cost of camp and that it not be subsidized or hidden in other budgets, I did some very rough back-of-the-envelope calculations on part of the cost of camp. Theyre for what in my experience is a medium-sized summer camp about 300 Scouts, 100 leaders and 80 staff members per week, over an 8-week season. (Disclaimer: My expense assumptions may be wildly off, so please chime in if you have experience in these matters.) The advertised cost for this camp is $330 per week for dining hall program, which translates into $792,000 in direct revenue from the Scouts. (This assumes leaders attend free.) I calculated two expense categories, salaries and food, just for starters. For the seasonal staff salaries, I assumed an average $2,000 paycheck half making more, half making less for a total $160,000 cost. I included two year-round salaries/benefits line items, for a camp director and a ranger, at $50,000 each (including medical insurance, training and probably some housing). Thats a total cost of $260,000 in direct personnel costs. I did some even rougher estimates on the cost of food. There are 480 mouths to feed at this camp for eight weeks; each week is about 5.5 days long when you look at how meals are served. I assumed a cost per person of 50 cents per meal (just pulled out of thin air, thanks to the efficiencies of bulk buying and the miracle of government surplus almond butter), which totals about $4,000 per week, or about $36,000 for the entire 8-week season. (If the camp is a patrol-cooking, bring-your-own-food camp, of course, the cost goes to virtually zero.) Subtotal for salaries and food: $300,000, rounded up. So if you want camp to pay for itself, youre left with about $492,000 for all the other expenses associated with running a camp: Staff training (one week minimum for all staff, two weeks for senior staff at NCS, special training for first-aider if needed), consumable program supplies (e.g., ammunition, basket kits, rope), updates of program supplies (new merit badge books, handbooks as needed), general maintenance (painting, plumbing, electricity, industrial refrigerators, stoves and dishwashers), purchasing new program equipment (replacing the holey canoes, the bent paddles, the end-of-their-lifespan climbing ropes, the 5-year-old arrows with peeling fletching and the disreputable backpacking stoves), purchasing new canvas wall tents and tarps to replace the worn-out ones that can't be repaired any longer, vehicle costs (gas, oil, fluids, tires and general maintenance for trucks and jeeps), pool chemicals, office supplies (lots and lots of paper, ink, toner, pens, pencils, clipboards, computers, Internet access, photocopier rental), blue cards for 2,400 Scouts, first aid supplies, utilities (water, sewer/septic, electricity), marketing and communications materials and distribution, volunteer recognition, camper recognition and awards, general insurance, summer staff workers comp insurance and probably a hundred other categories that arent coming to mind right now. Does that seem reasonable? Anyone have figures or expenses to add?(This message has been edited by shortridge)(This message has been edited by shortridge)

After DeanRxs statement about info on where the FOS money goes, I went to guidestar.org and got the most recent IRS Form 990 for my council. It doesnt break out FOS donations from other donations, nor does it give as detailed a description as Im sure some of us would like. But it does provide some interesting food for thought. - The council reported 0- on the expenses line for legal fees. Are legal fees paid by National? - Of the $1.6 million that came in from program service revenue basically money generated from running programs - $1.4 came from camping and $200,000 from activities. It took in $1.3 million in donations and grants and the like. - It spent $2.8 million on program services, $465,000 on management and general, and $392,000 on fundraising. - Wages and salaries add up to about $1.6 million about 40 percent of the overall revenue picture. - Camperships received $8,087 - enough money to cover half the cost of summer camp for about 50 Boy Scouts.

Great question, and great points. Can't wait to see how others have dealt / would deal with this.

I, for one, welcome Kudu's perspective, on this and other issues. If you don't like what someone writes, well, that's what the "ignore" function is for.

The cynic in me says money. The former den chief in me says crowd control. It's really easy to sort Cubs when you can look at their hats or neckerchief and tell at a glance where they're supposed to be.

Except this issue isn't small potatoes to the Scout who was refused a BOR. He's probably upset and frustrated. For me, it would come down to whether the bring-your-HB-to-BOR expectation is widely known and communicated in this troop, or whether it was something he was confronted with when he showed up for the meeting. Yes, in an ideal world, all Scouts would bring their Handbooks to every Scouting event - troop meeting, patrol meeting, campout, camporee, jamboree. But realistically, don't we all forget our keys, wallets and glasses from time to time, locking ourselves out of our cars or houses at the most inopportune moments? Cut the Scout some slack.